Black Oxide inside Copper wire

BilljustBill · May 2011

I've tried searches in various headers for "Black Oxide". I'm not finding the info about it.

Today, at an estate sale, I bought several hundred feet of #4 or maybe #2 thin strand copper cable for just $5.... The only I.D on the cable is this"

NEG 133564 P

I was hoping this was the wire that had being talked about in one of the threads that resists developing the black oxide from DC voltages.

Any help with the search or what this cable might be?

Thanks,
Bill

dwh · May 2011

Re: Black Oxide inside Copper wire

Look here on Page E4 - looks like that cable is listed in the table at the bottom of the page:

http://www.nationalelectricgate.com/NEG%20SEP/catalog.pdf

niel · May 2011

Re: Black Oxide inside Copper wire

well bill, even though it's only #6 you still got a good deal on that.:D

sometimes you can get some entrance wire to homes being torn down and the older homes often had copper and not aluminum provided they did not upgrade their service rating.

dwh · May 2011

Re: Black Oxide inside Copper wire

From the description in the .pdf, I don't think that's copper wire.

mr.radon · May 2011

Re: Black Oxide inside Copper wire

From the catalog:
Applications
For use in low voltage track circuit applications, NECCO Bond Strand is available both bare and insulated.
Construction
A single, tinned over bare cadmium bronze conductor (7 x 19 concentric strands, each 0.0132 inch) with an overall circular mil area of 22,173 can be insulated with either polyvinyl chloride (PVC) or rubber/neopre ne.
Advantages
An extremely flexible, yet rugged cable, our Bond Strand is clean stripping, and the specially tempered cadmium bronze hold its shape while being terminated.

BilljustBill · May 2011

Re: Black Oxide inside Copper wire

dwh wrote: »

Look here on Page E4 - looks like that cable is listed in the table at the bottom of the page:

http://www.nationalelectricgate.com/NEG%20SEP/catalog.pdf

Thank you for finding this info for this wire! By the limited data given, do you think it's the wire type that resists forming the black oxide?

Since it's No. 6, maybe it can be used in the three 4 panel-Kyocera 12v/48v strings to one controller, and in parallel wiring of 30 Kaneka panels to another controller, and for runs up to 50' long going to the combiner boxes.

With the amount I found, can you think of any other uses?

john p · May 2011

Re: Black Oxide inside Copper wire

black cancer on copper wire means its almost dead. It is always a problem with DC and 100 times the problem when installed on boats. Tinned copper is nearly always used on boats for that reason.
To slow it starting all lugs should be crimped and very well soldered (heat the lug and feed the solder into it from the cable hole near the lug mounting hole,hold it in air wire vertical down)then heatshrink with inside glue or silicone inside heatshrink fitted to cover the lug as much as possible and go at least 4" up the cable. I use double hearshrink if the no glue type.

Please ro replies if you not like the soldered lug idea .im not intereseed in hearing the so called problems it supposed to have.or that "no one " does it that way any more.. as cant be true as it is done by EVERYBODY always where I work.

Cariboocoot · May 2011

Re: Black Oxide inside Copper wire

john p wrote: »

Please no replies if you not like the soldered lug idea. I'm not interested in hearing the so called problems it supposed to have, or that "no one " does it that way any more. And this can't be true as it is done by EVERYBODY, always where I work.

Also, we (John specifically) have already proven in another thread that this practice is fine. For which I am grateful because I hate being told I'm doing something wrong that I've been doing for decades without any problems. If there's enough current going through the wire to melt the solder (400+F) there is way too much current going through the wire! Crimp tight, solder, seal it up. Works. End of discussion.

Used to strip back auto wires, dip them in acid to remove corrosion, neutralize, repair. Pain in the anatomy! Sometimes it was easier to tear ad toss the whole length rather than find a "solid point" to rebuild from.

niel · May 2011

Re: Black Oxide inside Copper wire

caution here as it may be #6, but being it isn't pure copper wire it will have a higher resistance than pure copper wire and voltage drop calculators assume pure copper wire. i'm guessing, but it may pass as compatible to #7 or #8 pure copper wire depending on how much copper is actually in the wire and what other metals are mixed into it.

dwh · May 2011

Re: Black Oxide inside Copper wire

http://pelallc.com/id12.html

"Adding small quantities of cadmium to copper gives higher strength, improved hardness and wear resistance, however decreases the electrical conductivity. Copper containing 0.5 to 1.2 % cadmium is commonly referred to as cadmium copper or cadmium bronze. Hitenso is a commercially available cadmium bronze and exhibits 35% greater strength than hard-drawn copper and 85% the conductivity of copper. Conductivity bronze another commercially available copper used extensively for electric wires, contains 0.8% cadmium and 0.6% tin and exhibits a conductivity 50% that of copper."

http://www.copper.org/resources/properties/microstructure/cad_cu.html

"Cadmium copper is used for trolley wire because it is extremely resistant to arc erosion. An extremely heat resistant cadmium oxide forms on the surface of the wire during arcing and protects it from eroding. This enables the cadmium copper wire to retain its strength under the high temperature conditions of the electric trains."

dwh · May 2011

Re: Black Oxide inside Copper wire

"Bond Strand" a.k.a. "Signal Bond"

waynefromnscanada · May 2011

Re: Black Oxide inside Copper wire

Cariboocoot wrote: »

If there's enough current going through the wire to melt the solder (400+F) there is way too much current going through the wire! Crimp tight, solder, seal it up. Works. End of discussion. .

Couldn't have said it better! Been doing it that way myself for over 40 years, and never once a problem. A lot of people have ideas and opinions, but what works, works.

Peter_V · May 2011

Re: Black Oxide inside Copper wire

john p wrote: »

Please ro replies if you not like the soldered lug idea .im not intereseed in hearing the so called problems it supposed to have.or that "no one " does it that way any more.. as cant be true as it is done by EVERYBODY always where I work.

Nothing wrong with doing that.

The problem come when you solder and THEN crimp. Very bad idea, the pressure causes the solder to break down. At least that is what I was taught years ago.

With thin stranded wire that is subject to continuous flexing, soldering can cause the wires to break, but then so can crimping if it's not done correctly.

rbtrrer · May 2011

Re: Black Oxide inside Copper wire

What's your take on dielectric silicone or vasoline?

Cariboocoot · May 2011

Re: Black Oxide inside Copper wire

rbtrrer wrote: »

What's your take on dielectric silicone or vasoline?

Both work to prevent corrosion. Vasoline has been used for years on battery connections, but for wiring connection the dielectric grease is preferable; Vasoline isn't exactly temperature stable.

Others' opinions may differ. Feel free to disagree.

waynefromnscanada · May 2011

Re: Black Oxide inside Copper wire

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Vasoline has been used for years on battery connections.

Note of interest: I've been using a Canadian product "Rust Check" designed to chemically stop/prevent corrosion, for over 20 years now. Far easier to apply than either of the other products mentioned and creeps into cracks, gaps and any other opening, coating the metal surfaces. Comes in a spray can, available through Home Hardware, CTC etc. About once a year I give a quick little shot on each terminal, cable connection etc and still 8 or 9 years later, all terminals on and around my flooded L-16 batteries etc are just like new with totally NO sign of any corrosion whatever.

mike95490 · May 2011

Re: Black Oxide inside Copper wire

While working on old house AC wire, #10 solid. I'd discovered that the entire "strand" was black oxidized, inside and outer layer. Since it mostly was buried in walls, I couldn't do much but clean the surface as best I could, and wire into it anyway. it's the one point where aluminum wire has an advantage, oxide only on outside layer, unlike copper, which can eventually oxidize through and through.

BilljustBill · May 2011

Re: Black Oxide inside Copper wire

mike90045 wrote: »

While working on old house AC wire, #10 solid. I'd discovered that the entire "strand" was black oxidized, inside and outer layer. Since it mostly was buried in walls, I couldn't do much but clean the surface as best I could, and wire into it anyway. it's the one point where aluminum wire has an advantage, oxide only on outside layer, unlike copper, which can eventually oxidize through and through.

Any chance that the Black Oxide you saw could have come from being near the effects of China made drywall/sheetrock?

Then, months later, they also found out that some brands of drywall made here in the U.S.A. during the housing boom and after Katrina was doing the same thing...

mike95490 · May 2011

Re: Black Oxide inside Copper wire

nope, this was 20 years ago, in a 60 year old house with lath & plaster walls ! It was a very early romex, was tar & cloth wrapped and there may have been rubber on the individual wires, maybe it was sulfur in the rubber that got into the copper ?

Black Oxide inside Copper wire

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