Xantrex XW 4548 inverter

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tonygcan
tonygcan Solar Expert Posts: 91 ✭✭✭✭
in General Solar Power Topics #1
We use 220 volts 60 Hz electricity in the Philippines. The inverter I ordered is the US version XW 4548 120/240 volts. Will this work for me in the Philippines or is the European version 115/230 volts a better match. I'm not sure what the Hz is for European specs.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
    #2
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    Re: Xantrex XW 4548 inverter

    If you can live with 240 VAC 60 Hz--it should be OK for you (220 is a bit low for the US but still considered OK for utility power). Our maximum is around 264 VAC.

    Europe tends to be 230 VAC 50 Hz... I would not think that would work well for you unless you can live with 50Hz (not usually a good idea unless you really know your loads and motors and are sure it will work).

    I don't know if you can program the 240 VAC down to 220 VAC or not? But it should be a bit on the high side for you.

    What are your appliances rated?

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • tonygcan
    tonygcan Solar Expert Posts: 91 ✭✭✭✭
    #3
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    Re: Xantrex XW 4548 inverter

    Thanks Bill,

    We use 60 Hz in the Philippines. Our appliances are rated for 220 volts. Will plugging our 220 volt appliances to 240 volts inverter be ok?
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  • Frxddy
    Frxddy Solar Expert Posts: 113 ✭✭✭✭
    #4
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    Re: Xantrex XW 4548 inverter

    Let me add some confusion.... here in the USA, 220 comes to us as two 110 volt lines. In some parts of the world 220 volts comes into a house as one 220 volt line. The first thing you need to know is what "kind" of 220 do you have?
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  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #5
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    Re: Xantrex XW 4548 inverter
    Frxddy wrote: »
    Let me add some confusion.... here in the USA, 220 comes to us as two 110 volt lines. In some parts of the world 220 volts comes into a house as one 220 volt line. The first thing you need to know is what "kind" of 220 do you have?


    MY part of the USA, we get 240VAC, split to 120V on 2 lines.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
    #6
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    Re: Xantrex XW 4548 inverter

    Your over-voltage would be:
    • (240-220)/220 = 0.09 = 9% over voltage
    That should not be a problem. It would still not hurt to as Xantrex if they can program the output voltage down a bit.

    I think nominal US voltage used to be (or even still is) supposed to be 117/234 VAC.
    • (264 - 234) / 234 = 0.128 = 12.8% over voltage
    264 VAC is pretty "hot" for us--Filament lamps are available here (at least we used to get) bulbs that were rated 130 VAC (for longer life).

    Maybe somebody here can measure their output voltage for a XW inverter and see what it really outputs.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • tonygcan
    tonygcan Solar Expert Posts: 91 ✭✭✭✭
    #7
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    Re: Xantrex XW 4548 inverter

    Ok thanks. As long as the overvoltage is still fine for the appliance then that's good enough for me.

    I will be using my RE system mostly for CFL lights, TVs and computers.

    The 220 volts we have is one live and one ground I think, meaning only one line carries the 220 volts.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
    #8
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    Re: Xantrex XW 4548 inverter

    You will find that the XW is normally center tap ground referenced neutral (i.e., Line A to Neural 120 volts, Line B to neutral 120 volts, Line A to Line B 240 VAC).

    You will have to check out your appliances to see if a center tap reference is a problem... In older equipment in the US, the Grounded Neutral was attached to parts that could be touched (before three prong plugs became popular with the 3 pin earth ground). For example, a screw-in lamp has the threaded portion tied to neutral, and the center terminal is "hot".

    Can the XW be rewired to a Line A to Neutral (ground) of ~220 VAC--You will have to ask Xantrex that question.

    That wiring "issue" will carry through both the inverter output (obviously), but also the AC1 (utility power) and AC2 (AC generator power) inputs.

    I.e., your appliances may be OK with Line A-N-B wiring, but your generator may be wired for Line A-N...

    Be sure to read all of the documentation from the Schneider website and ask all the questions you can before laying out the $$$.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • Les Nagy
    Les Nagy Solar Expert Posts: 121 ✭✭
    #9
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    Re: Xantrex XW 4548 inverter

    XW inverters can be adjusted in voltage and frequency using XW Config software from Schneider/Xantrex and a USB adapter such as the Apox Can-USB device and RJ45 adapter found at this site: http://www.briery.com/order.html

    You can get the latest XW Config here:
    http://www.global-download.schneider-electric.com/repositorySchneider/index.nsf/DisplayProductDocumentation?OpenAgent&L=EN&App=Schneider&p=7654%26c=60,61,63,64,65,303,307

    but you need to call Schneider for the latest firmware for your inverter (1 866 519 1470 )
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  • Frxddy
    Frxddy Solar Expert Posts: 113 ✭✭✭✭
    #10
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    Re: Xantrex XW 4548 inverter
    mike90045 wrote: »
    MY part of the USA, we get 240VAC, split to 120V on 2 lines.

    *smile* When talking in these parts we always say "110-220", but you are correct, it is closer to 240. Usually if I stick a meter in an outlet it show just under 115. I did so just a minute ago & I think for the first time ever it was over 120, it showed 121 and blinked to 122.

    The reason I mentioned is if he has 220 on one leg, (which we now know he does) will the inverter he's talking about even work for him? I am not familiar enough with inverters to know. I see BB is far more knowledgeable than I am in this department. It looks like he either answered the question, or posed the proper questions to solve the dilemma.
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  • Les Nagy
    Les Nagy Solar Expert Posts: 121 ✭✭
    #11
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    Re: Xantrex XW 4548 inverter

    I can confirm that the Euro or export model of the XW4548 with the latest firmware can supply 50Hz or 60Hz with adjustable output voltages. I have mine set for 220V and 50Hz output.

    I would think that the Euro or export model would best suit your needs based on the information you have given.

    If you get the North American Model, you will have to change its configuration but as BB said it is not sure it will work for you.

    And, anything that is a voltage sensitive load will use 20% more power if used at 240 volts when it is rated at 220 volts.
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  • tonygcan
    tonygcan Solar Expert Posts: 91 ✭✭✭✭
    #12
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    Re: Xantrex XW 4548 inverter

    Thank you for the heads up guys.

    I will call NAWS tom and find out if I can still change my order to the European model which supplies 115/2230 volts. I will need to have it supplying 60Hz though.

    If the NORAM model can be reconfigured then it shouldn't be a problem. I know we've puchased 120 volt american appliances and plugged them into step down transformers in the Philippines and we've not had problems with them even at a supply of 110 volts.

    Is there really a problem with having 2 live 110 volt lines to make 220 and 1 live 220 and 1 ground?
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
    #13
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    Re: Xantrex XW 4548 inverter

    Unfortinatually, the answer is "most of the time" it is probably OK.

    For example, in the US we have 240 VAC driers--and they assume the neutral lead is grounded--And some locations allow us to connect the drier with a 3 wire plug. The white wire is 0 volts here...

    In your place, one of the 220 VAC wires is zero volts. Do you have any appliances/etc. that expect the "white wire" of your 220 VAC to be at ground potential (and possibly tied to the sheet-metal frame)?

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • david3
    david3 Solar Expert Posts: 37 ✭
    #14
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    Re: Xantrex XW 4548 inverter

    I'm in the Philippines, too. I'm at the research stage right now, trying to decide if it's worth it to install a PV system.

    The city I'm in has a 110/220V 60Hz split-phase system, similar to the US. Except the houses are wired for 220 (I say 220, but it may be 230 or 240 at times, and much lower at other times).

    We've got 2 hot lines coming from the utility. There's no guarantee each will be 110V. One may be 90V and the other 130V. There's no neutral or ground coming to the house from the transformer on the pole. We wired our outlets' ground to our own grounding rod.

    All the 220V 60Hz appliances and electronics we've bought here work fine. And I use step-down transformers for some 110V electronics, and those are fine, also.

    However, if your house was wired for 220+neutral, I'm not sure what ramifications hooking a split-phase inverter into that wiring would have. If your neutral line is wired to a grounding rod, for example, that might be a problem.

    I'm not an electrician, though. It might be worth it to consult with one and have him check your wiring.
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  • tonygcan
    tonygcan Solar Expert Posts: 91 ✭✭✭✭
    #15
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    Re: Xantrex XW 4548 inverter

    When I was a kid we had 110 and 220 volts available. I think the supply was 2 wires at 110 volts and a third ground wire so you could configure to have both 110 and 220 available. Then sometime in the late 70s they switched to only 220 volts. Why, I dont know.

    Where in the Philippines are you located?

    If I'm just running lights, TVs and Computers do I have to worry about what type of 220 I have?

    Bill - If I'll be using only 1000 watts maximum at one time do you think its wise for me to get the 6048 instead?
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
    #16
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    Re: Xantrex XW 4548 inverter

    Probably not... If you have "standard" Edison type bulbs--the outside of the screw base is supposed to be Neutral (grounded) so that people won't shock themselves when changing bulbs. And in the US, the older lamps did not have very good insulation between neutral and ground (just a bit of cardboard). Certainly not a reason to forget the US 120/240 split phase--but the little things to watch out for:
    • Another is Florescent lamps (tube type). The metal housing is supposed to be at ground potential for "more reliable starting". Just confirm that the metal fixture is not connected to your "Neutral" 220 VAC leg.
    • Also, some natural/propane gas appliances use automatic electrical sparks to light the burners. If the Hot/Neutral are reversed, the "flame detect" does not work reliably (i.e., spark when no flame, no-spark when flame is burning). Sometimes used on stoves and space/water heaters in the US.
    Those are the only "common issues" I would worry about neutral/hot setups.

    There are several things to look out for sizing inverter/chargers like the XW (in my humble opinion).
    • Peak continuous power rating. The inverters are typically rated in Watts, but VA (volt-amp) is also important. If you have lots of non-power factor corrected computers, electric motors (fans, pumps, etc.). Make sure that you measure RMS Amps too... In typical worst case, PF of around 0.60 to 0.67 is pretty common. So, a 1,000 watt load with PFC loads (PF~1.0)--that equals VA. For a 1,000 watt of computer supplies and electric motors, VA=1,000w*1/0.60=1,667va -- or 2/3'rd larger inverter than you would have planned on based on Watt rating alone.
    • Surge current--Typically surge rating is around 2x rated power output. Pumps and other motors you may have to account for surge (don't want the well pump turning on dropping power for a few cycles on your computers). Remember too that you need to rate/evaluate the battery bank's surge current capabilities too (for flooded cell, I like to use 2.5x peak battery surge current for battery bank 20 Hour Amp*Hour rating).
    • Charging Current. If you have lots of continuous loads that run 8-24 hours per day--the Peak Power requirements may not be that large--but your recharging requirements are large because you need a large battery bank to keep everything powered for a couple days of "no-sun". So, if you have a large bank and large genset, you may need the large inverter/charger current capacity to properly recharge your battery bank (assuming the ~5%-25% rate of charge current of the charger/genset).
    So, another yes/no question turned into a page of post. Sorry. :blush:

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • Les Nagy
    Les Nagy Solar Expert Posts: 121 ✭✭
    #17
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    Re: Xantrex XW 4548 inverter
    tonygcan wrote: »
    If I'm just running lights, TVs and Computers do I have to worry about what type of 220 I have?

    You can look on the labels on the items to see what they are rated for. Most modern electronics are capable of running on 110-240VAC and 50-60Hz and will be labelled that way. Computers will run that way too, but only if they are labelled that way and desktop computers usually have a switch on the power supply to select for 110 or for 220V. They will tolerate voltages different than 110 and 220, but don't plug one set for 110 into 220 or it will go up in smoke. I know from experience.
    tonygcan wrote: »
    Bill - If I'll be using only 1000 watts maximum at one time do you think its wise for me to get the 6048 instead?

    I know you asked Bill, but I think I have a reasonable answer for that. I have a 4548 and my neighbor has a 6048. I have not used the full output of my 4548 and I have many higher loads that I use. Sure, the 6048 will give you the ability to supply 6 kilowatts, but do you realize how big a battery bank you would need to not kill it when drawing such high loads? I have a 48V 750AH battery bank and if I were to run at 6 kilowatts I would completely kill the batteries in less than 3 hours according to the spec sheet. That would take the batteries down to complete discharge. If I wanted to only take the batteries down to 70% charge as is best to do, then I would only be able to use the batteries at 6 kilowatts for less than an hour. Maybe having such a big surge capacity would be nice, but with my 4548, I have gone above 3 kilowatts maybe twice in 1 year. The 4548 will also supply surges of double its rated power for 10 seconds.

    My advice would be to save the difference in cost and put that money into more panels. You can never have enough panels. Or alternatively, buy a generator or a better generator, or better monitoring for the batteries, or more efficient appliances. $1 spent on conservation is worth $10 in renewable energy supply.
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  • david3
    david3 Solar Expert Posts: 37 ✭
    #18
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    Re: Xantrex XW 4548 inverter
    tonygcan wrote: »
    Where in the Philippines are you located?

    If I'm just running lights, TVs and Computers do I have to worry about what type of 220 I have?

    I'm in San Fernando City, La Union.

    My guess is that most things won't care about the type of 220 you have, but what I'm not sure about is the effect it will have with the house wiring. That is, if the house is wired with one of the lines neutral-grounded, how will it work if that becomes hot.
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  • tonygcan
    tonygcan Solar Expert Posts: 91 ✭✭✭✭
    #19
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    Re: Xantrex XW 4548 inverter

    Thanks for the tip. Although the advantage would be that I would get more power from the 6048 I realize I can't really make my system too big due to space constraints. The 4558 should suffice.

    I also asked an american friend of mine who lives in Manila. He's an electrical engineer too and this is his input.

    I wanted to consult with you regarding the inverter I'm purchasing here in the US. Its the Xantrex XW4548 US version which puts out 120 and 240 volts 60Hz. Is this okay to use in the Philippines for our 110 and 220 volt appliances?

    IT will work fine here in PI.
    The 220 Volt rating on appliances is a 'nominal' value not an exacting voltage requirement. Appliances are (or should be) designed to operate over a range of source voltages such as 208 to 240 etc. You would have to refer to the manufacturers specification or name plate rating to be sure for each unit. But usually when it is stated to be a 220 or 230 Volt appliance it is understood to mean in the range of 208 to 240. Again each appliance should specify it's range on the nameplate.

    Someone in the forum was mentioning that I should also check if the electricity in the Philippines is 2 live 110 volts or 1 live 220 and 1 neutral ground. Will it matter to the appliance?

    Send me the address to the forum. I would be interested in that discussion.

    It really doesn't matter that much as either will work when configured for 220 Volt operation. What I have seen here is not 100 % uniform but it seems to be 'one live 220 volt circuit' with some places I have seen having a neutral supplied and some I've seen do not. If there is a neutral provided you can obtain 120 volts by conneting between the neutral and one of the 220 Volt lines (N-L). Otherwise (without a neutral) you would have to use a separate step-down transformer to obtain 120 Volts from the 220 main. I have not seen '2 live 110 volts' supplied here but it could be somewhere. Because of the past US influence in rebuilding after the war it was done similar to US standards though not all wiring supplies the neutral and thus has 120 Volts available and 220 is the norm here not 120 as in the US.

    You can tell pretty easily what you have by looking at the wires coming from the power company to your property. If there are only two wires [sometimes one bare (uninsulated) wire and one covered (insulated) wire and sometimes two covered, insulated wires] you have 220 with no neutral. If there are three wires coming from the power company, the third one may be a neutral. The attached drawing shows a transformer supplying power from the power company. You would either have Line 1 and Line 2 run to your property (two wires only) or you would have Line1, Line2 and Neutral (three wires). The Xantrax XW4548 indicates using L-N for 120 Volts and L-L for 240 Volts. It will allow you to wire to whatever you have/need here.
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  • david3
    david3 Solar Expert Posts: 37 ✭
    #20
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    Re: Xantrex XW 4548 inverter

    Will the Xantrex XW inverters work if you don't connect anything to the Neutral AC IN and AC OUT connections (with only L1 and L2 connected)?
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