HELP: I Found a 5000 Watt Inverter

fossil2k2
fossil2k2 Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭
in Off Grid Solar & Battery Systems #1
Hey everyone, I'm the forum's greenest (read: newest) member. I'm hoping that someone could tell me more about what I've stumble upon.

My Grandfather was always talking about getting a windmill or solar panels for his home. I recently was going through some old stuff in my Grandfather's garage and stumbled across what looks to be a big inverter.

Here's some information that I've been able to dig up:

Manufactured By: B.E.S.T (aka: Best Energy Systems For Tomorrow, Inc.)
Model Number: B 48.5000
Input Voltage DC: 48-56
Output Voltage AC: 120/240 Regulated
60 Htz
5000 Watts

I found an article in Popular Science magazine from 1980 that talks about the equipment.

It sounds like it was one of the first UPS (uninterrupted power supply) of it's time.

Also, I found this patent information online... I'm not 100% sure its the same piece of equipment, but it sure looks like it could be...

It looks like the company went out of business some time ago. I think they changed their name to "BEST Power" and were bought out by EATON....

I understand that this piece of equipment may be +/- 30 years old, but if it still functions properly would it still have value? I'm excited to learn more about what I've stumbled across. I'll try and post some photos when I get a chance.
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Comments

  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #2
    Re: HELP: I Found a 5000 Watt Inverter

    There is a good chance the electrolytic capacitors have dried out and need replacement.

    If you want to try to get a piece of your family history going again, do it in your garage while wearing a safety shield and natural fiber clothing (reduce chance of burns from synthetic fabrics).

    Otherwise, it is probably worth more for its scrap value.

    Realistically, the life is probably 10-20 years, and trying to find electronic components over 10 years old can be very difficult to.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • fossil2k2
    fossil2k2 Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭
    #3
    Re: HELP: I Found a 5000 Watt Inverter
    BB. wrote: »
    There is a good chance the electrolytic capacitors have dried out and need replacement.

    If you want to try to get a piece of your family history going again, do it in your garage while wearing a safety shield and natural fiber clothing (reduce chance of burns from synthetic fabrics).

    Otherwise, it is probably worth more for its scrap value.

    Realistically, the life is probably 10-20 years, and trying to find electronic components over 10 years old can be very difficult to.

    -Bill

    Thanks for the knowledge Bill. I hadn't thought about actually getting it going. I don't know that it was ever even used. It appears to be brand new, the box I found it in was it's original box.

    My Grandfather owned a electronic parts distributor, my father still sells some of the old parts as well, so maybe getting it running isn't entirely out of the question.
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  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #4
    Re: HELP: I Found a 5000 Watt Inverter

    nice find

    Even if the caps are shot, they are often well marked, and replacements are not expensive. Any electronics shop can advise you about replaceing them.

    Caps in an inverter are often worked hard and to their limits, where caps in a small radio are not, and last and last.

    4, 12V deep cycle batteries, fuse and some interconnect cables, and you have power for a blackout.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

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  • john p
    john p Solar Expert Posts: 814 ✭✭✭
    #5
    Re: HELP: I Found a 5000 Watt Inverter

    HAVE YOU OPENED UP THE INVERTER??If yes can you post any transistor part numbers especially silver steel cover ones. ?
    The caps may be ok as it never have been used.(its in a box)
    It most likely be a squarewave one as sinewave ones to the best of my feeble memory didnt exist
    they were about 70 to 75% effecient at that time.. a lot of waste heat.
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  • Brianellul
    Brianellul Solar Expert Posts: 95 ✭✭
    #6
    Re: HELP: I Found a 5000 Watt Inverter

    Hello

    I also own a small 600VA 'BEST' inverter bought around 15 years ago for my PC. Nowadays, and that about 8 years now, I'm using it for solar, and it's still going strong! My only modifications were
    1) Remove the two small 7Ah batteries and instead replaced with a large capacitor (80,000 uF) + getting external power from my battery bank.
    2) Removed the beeper! Yes this will be on all the time since the inverter is running without mains supply.
    3) Installed a PC fan extractor inside the inverter to help keep cool the inside. I built a simple electronic circuit so that the fan is not always on...

    It's impressive that although this inverter is rated 600VA, it can successfully start a fridge compressor. I did this just once to test since I know that I'll be overloading the inverter! This inverter can supply in excess of 600VA and in fact it can go for brief periods 150% overload without shutting down.

    I'm not sure if it produces a sine wave or not, however the output seems clean enough to power fluorescent & enery savings lights lights without flikker.

    Day-to-Day I use this inverter to power all my lighting needs, TV, Hi-FI and my solar differential controller + pump, so I don't abuse it!

    In your case, you have a beast of inverter. I'll give it a go! nothing to loose. If it works (maybe after replacing the large electrolytic capacitors), you'll have a good inverter...

    Regards
    Brian
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  • fossil2k2
    fossil2k2 Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭
    #7
    Re: HELP: I Found a 5000 Watt Inverter

    Thanks for the continued feedback guys!

    Over the weekend I'll make an effort to post some photos and part numbers.
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #8
    Re: HELP: I Found a 5000 Watt Inverter

    interesting read on the inverter. it probably still has bad electrolytics even if not used, but plug it in and see what goes poof.

    ps- i got a kick out of reading some of that old stuff. for instance in the personal section #106 there's an ad asking if you'd like to find out what your iq is and send them $4 to find out.:roll: i can tell them how smart they are for sending them the $4 and mine doesn't cost a cent.:cool::p
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  • john p
    john p Solar Expert Posts: 814 ✭✭✭
    #9
    Re: HELP: I Found a 5000 Watt Inverter

    I dont understand why everyone is saying "most likely the electroletics will be dried out" Modern electroletics (after about 1970) just dont seem to dry out and how can they ? they are sealed metal cans.
    I have known of power amlifiers that were made in early 70's that have never had the caps replaced, And I know for a fact there are many of the amplifiers that I manufactured in the 80's that are still going ok.
    Anyway we shall se what happens if and when he tries to use the inverter.
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #10
    Re: HELP: I Found a 5000 Watt Inverter

    john,
    you are right in saying that there isn't a guarantee that all of the caps went bad and is why i said to plug it in and see what goes poof. then you know for sure and caps like that can fail anytime, even brand new and never used.
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  • Peter_V
    Peter_V Solar Expert Posts: 226 ✭✭✭
    #11
    Re: HELP: I Found a 5000 Watt Inverter
    john p wrote: »
    HAVE YOU OPENED UP THE INVERTER??If yes can you post any transistor part numbers especially silver steel cover ones. ?
    The caps may be ok as it never have been used.(its in a box)
    It most likely be a squarewave one as sinewave ones to the best of my feeble memory didnt exist
    they were about 70 to 75% effecient at that time.. a lot of waste heat.

    I have a "sine wave" inverter that is about that old.
    I'd actually is labeled as a "modified sinewave" but unlike the modified sinewave inverters they sell now it has thousands of steps instead of just three.

    It employs a continuous slope delta modulation.

    Basically it generates a pure sinewave of low aplitude and then several thousand times per second it compares it to the main output voltage (scaled down of course)
    It then addsor subtracts a little voltage from the output and checks again.

    If you look at the output on an o-scope it looks like a sinewave until you zoom in on part of the waveform and then it looks like a tiny staircase
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  • Peter_V
    Peter_V Solar Expert Posts: 226 ✭✭✭
    #12
    Re: HELP: I Found a 5000 Watt Inverter
    john p wrote: »
    I dont understand why everyone is saying "most likely the electroletics will be dried out" Modern electroletics (after about 1970) just dont seem to dry out and how can they ? they are sealed metal cans.
    I have known of power amlifiers that were made in early 70's that have never had the caps replaced, And I know for a fact there are many of the amplifiers that I manufactured in the 80's that are still going ok.
    Anyway we shall se what happens if and when he tries to use the inverter.

    In this case "Drying out" doesn't mean what you think it means.

    The electrolyte in electrolytic capacitors is unstable. When you have a voltage applied the electrolyte is continuously "healing" itself. However, without voltage applied (i.e. in long term storage) the electrolyte breaks down.
    If you catch it before it completely breaks down and apply voltage it will start healing again, however until the electrolyte "heals" the capacitor will have a high leakage current and will run hot. The longer it's been in storage the higher the leakage current. If the leakage current is high enough the capacitor will over heat and explode.

    One way you can avoid this with really old caps is to remove them from the circuit and apply a low level voltage to start the healing, after a day or so you can gradually increase the voltage until you get to the voltage the cap will normally see in the circuit.

    Shelf life for aluminum electrolytic capacitors is generally 2 to 10 years. So that just means that at 10 years you can apply full rated voltage and the capacitor is unlikely to explode.
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #13
    Re: HELP: I Found a 5000 Watt Inverter

    "One way you can avoid this with really old caps is to remove them from the circuit and apply a low level voltage to start the healing, after a day or so you can gradually increase the voltage until you get to the voltage the cap will normally see in the circuit."

    if you're going to go that far then you might as well just replace them and forget the testing or conditioning.

    "I have a "sine wave" inverter that is about that old.
    I'd actually is labeled as a "modified sinewave" but unlike the modified sinewave inverters they sell now it has thousands of steps instead of just three."

    cool. i guess at that point they were going literally by the process of wave generation rather than the total thd %.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #14
    Re: HELP: I Found a 5000 Watt Inverter

    Thank you Peter,

    That was one of those things I used to know. :cry:

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #15
    Re: HELP: I Found a 5000 Watt Inverter

    I used to have (in the late '60s) a reed vibrator inverter. I think it turned 6vdc into 120 vac. I have no idea how it worked, but I used it for a reel to reel tape deck in my VW bus! (Probably shouldn't reveal that).

    Tony
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #16
    Re: HELP: I Found a 5000 Watt Inverter
    icarus wrote: »
    I used to have (in the late '60s) a reed vibrator inverter. I think it turned 6vdc into 120 vac. I have no idea how it worked, but I used it for a reel to reel tape deck in my VW bus! (Probably shouldn't reveal that).

    Tony

    That was SOP for automotive radios back in the day. You had to have some "pseudo AC" to step-up to enough Voltage to run the valves (tubes).
    Shall we start telling them stories about the wax melting out of old caps? Or how dried out natural rubber insulation gets (under its cotton cover) after fifty years? :p
    Did ya know there used to be 'A' batteries and 'B' batteries? ;)
    "Solid state" used to be what happened when you left the bucket of water outside in winter. :p
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #17
    Re: HELP: I Found a 5000 Watt Inverter
    icarus wrote: »
    I used to have (in the late '60s) a reed vibrator inverter. I think it turned 6vdc into 120 vac. I have no idea how it worked, but I used it for a reel to reel tape deck in my VW bus! (Probably shouldn't reveal that).

    Tony

    reed vibrators!
    wow, i remember those. they were crude, but they worked.
    we used to just call them vibrators, but you can't say that nowadays.:roll::cry::p

    marc,
    all my batteries became the same. dead.:p all kidding aside, the b batteries were quite common for awhile with a typical voltage like 45v to operate tubes.
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  • fossil2k2
    fossil2k2 Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭
    #18
    Re: HELP: I Found a 5000 Watt Inverter

    Ok gang, as promised, here are a couple of photos. I was able to take the top and back cover off. Feast your eyes.

    189492_556578944590_41900197_32064846_4567092_n.jpg
    196670_556578959560_41900197_32064847_5123617_n.jpg
    196500_556578974530_41900197_32064848_749949_n.jpg
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  • fossil2k2
    fossil2k2 Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭
    #19
    Re: HELP: I Found a 5000 Watt Inverter

    199032_556578999480_41900197_32064849_5380748_n.jpg
    189177_556579014450_41900197_32064850_6949153_n.jpg
    196305_556579029420_41900197_32064851_6968346_n.jpg
    195894_556579049380_41900197_32064852_1907373_n.jpg

    I realized that nearly all the weight of this thing (100+ lbs) is the result of what looks to be a huge transformer. It was a ball buster to get out of the trunk of my car.

    If there is anything you'd like me to try and get a closer/better photo of, just let me know, i'll be more than happy to take more.

    I don't really have a use for something like this, so if anyone is local and interested, please feel free to make me an offer. I'd like to see it go to a good home.
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  • techntrek
    techntrek Solar Expert Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭
    #20
    Re: HELP: I Found a 5000 Watt Inverter
    we used to just call them vibrators, but you can't say that nowadays
    lol

    Love the pics, neat. Like others have said, I'd plug 'er in and see what happens.
    4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is
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  • fossil2k2
    fossil2k2 Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭
    #21
    Re: HELP: I Found a 5000 Watt Inverter
    techntrek wrote: »
    Love the pics, neat. Like others have said, I'd plug 'er in and see what happens.

    Can anyone describe the proper way to hook it up? A sketch would be awesome.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #22
    Re: HELP: I Found a 5000 Watt Inverter
    fossil2k2 wrote: »
    Can anyone describe the proper way to hook it up? A sketch would be awesome.

    Uh, minus to the big (-) terminal, plus to the big (+) terminal, flick the 'DC on/off' switch to 'on'.
    Stand back, just in case. :p
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  • fossil2k2
    fossil2k2 Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭
    #23
    Re: HELP: I Found a 5000 Watt Inverter
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    Uh, minus to the big (-) terminal, plus to the big (+) terminal, flick the 'DC on/off' switch to 'on'.
    Stand back, just in case. :p

    Yeah, I kinda figured that much... I guess I should have been more specific.

    Do I need a deep cycle battery?
    How many batteries to I need?
    Could I just hook up the battery to the inverter with jumper cables for the test?
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  • john p
    john p Solar Expert Posts: 814 ✭✭✭
    #24
    Re: HELP: I Found a 5000 Watt Inverter

    Fosil2k2 You just need to connect 4 x 12v batteries in series and then connect that string to the + and - connectors then connect AFTER a few minutes a small 120v load >> A few lights maybe, an electric fan.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #25
    Re: HELP: I Found a 5000 Watt Inverter

    Maybe check the AC out with a meter before plugging anything in.
    Batteries don't need to be deep cycle just for testing purposes.
    I'd be leery of jumper cables as you don't get solid connections with giant alligator clamps.
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  • john p
    john p Solar Expert Posts: 814 ✭✭✭
    #26
    Re: HELP: I Found a 5000 Watt Inverter

    For me Valves"tubes" will always have a happy and sad time in my memory
    Happy as you could grossly overload them and they would recover usually ,, Transistors, not usually,, the smoke escapes
    Sad as in my first year as en electronics technician I dropped a transmitter valve/tube at the AM radio (no FM) station I worked at. It was worth before I dropped it over $600 I was earning about $14 a week then... lucky for me they didnt make me pay for it as I expected they would.

    My estimate that invereter was made between 1975 and about 1980. The few caps are not that big, smaller than I would have expected and should be ok, The huge transformers were the reason for a lot of the cost. oh and the weight,and the lack of effeciency.
    My first designed and made one put out 280 w at 240v input 12v idle draw 3.5 a Best effeciency at about 200w out was about 75%.
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  • fossil2k2
    fossil2k2 Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭
    #27
    Re: HELP: I Found a 5000 Watt Inverter
    john p wrote: »
    Fosil2k2 You just need to connect 4 x 12v batteries in series and then connect that string to the + and - connectors then connect AFTER a few minutes a small 120v load >> A few lights maybe, an electric fan.
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    Maybe check the AC out with a meter before plugging anything in.
    Batteries don't need to be deep cycle just for testing purposes.
    I'd be leery of jumper cables as you don't get solid connections with giant alligator clamps.

    Thanks, I figured I'd need 4 batteries. I don't have cables to hook up batteries in series like that, or 4 car batteries for that matter. I don't really want to sink money into something I'll never use, especially if it might just burn out the old electronic components instantly.

    I'll keep asking around, there has to be someone at near by at MIT that would be interested in something like this. Thanks for the help.
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