Missouri Wind and Solar Turbine, anyone try them?

machineman
machineman Solar Expert Posts: 129 ✭✭✭
in Solar Product Reviews & Opinions #1
I'm looking for a small wind turbine >400w to compliment my off-grid solar system. I found "Missouri Wind and Solar" Turbines online and wondering if anyone has any experince with them?

Here's my findings from online searches of other turbines:

Windmax: Has good performance but terrible support. Haven't found any MTBF data yet.

TLG: Good performance and support but out of my price range.

Off Grid Cabin, 24V 440ah 6V GC battery bank, Xantrex MPPT60-150 CC, Magnum MS4024 inverter-charger, >1200w Solar bank

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  • MisterB
    MisterB Solar Expert Posts: 156 ✭✭
    #2
    Re: Missouri Wind and Solar Turbine, anyone try them?

    This thread isn't about a Missouri W&S turbine but the "Ghost" is very similar--almost identical--to some of theirs and uses the same PMA modified car alternators. There are a number of companies putting out these turbines with PMA alternators and lots of blades.

    http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?t=10516

    My first turbine was a SW windpower Windseeker II which was also used a PMA modified car alternator. They advertised 500 watts. It did 250 in really extreme winds and around 10-150 in more normal winds. You could probably expect about the same from any of the newer PMA turbines in both exaggerated specs and real performance.
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  • oil pan 4
    oil pan 4 Solar Expert Posts: 767 ✭✭✭✭
    #3
    Re: Missouri Wind and Solar Turbine, anyone try them?

    I believe that is what I have.
    They advertise 500w. But my little 300w grid tie is more than enough to handle the output I have seen so far.
    I pulled it down this week to sand blast, prime then paint and put on hopefully what will turn out to be a better blade and hub setup. I am trying out a 6 blade setup that "will support up to 800w", yeah right. Maybe in a CAT5 huricane.
    I plan on putting it back up as soon as I am not working a 60hr work week.
    So to recap, 800w worth of blade, on a 500w PMA, with a 300w gridtie.
    Then maybe I will get some useable power (see more than 60w on a regular basis).
    Also I plan to run a wind storm test, pull the blades off the PMA hook everything up like normal and put the PMA and its holder in a vice and drive it as hard as I can with my high speed dewalt drill and see what happens.

    Solar hybrid gasoline generator, 7kw gas, 180 watts of solar, Morningstar 15 amp MPPT, group 31 AGM, 900 watt kisae inverter.

    Solar roof top GMC suburban, a normal 3/4 ton suburban with 180 watts of panels on the roof and 10 amp genasun MPPT, 2000w samlex pure sine wave inverter, 12v gast and ARB air compressors.

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  • machineman
    machineman Solar Expert Posts: 129 ✭✭✭
    #4
    Re: Missouri Wind and Solar Turbine, anyone try them?
    oil pan 4 wrote: »
    I believe that is what I have.
    They advertise 500w. But my little 300w grid tie is more than enough to handle the output I have seen so far.

    Do you have any measured data from the Missouri turbine at a known wind speed? I want to know how this thing compares to the Windmax.

    I can't justify putting up more solar panels to add capacity in the winter. More of nothing equals nothing. Need something else for those short snow covered winter days when my batterys drain.

    Off Grid Cabin, 24V 440ah 6V GC battery bank, Xantrex MPPT60-150 CC, Magnum MS4024 inverter-charger, >1200w Solar bank

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  • MisterB
    MisterB Solar Expert Posts: 156 ✭✭
    #5
    Re: Missouri Wind and Solar Turbine, anyone try them?
    machineman wrote: »

    I can't justify putting up more solar panels to add capacity in the winter. More of nothing equals nothing. Need something else for those short snow covered winter days when my batterys drain.

    Wind works well with solar if done right. I have been doing it for 18 years. Getting a turbine that works is half the battle. The other half is having a site that gets enough wind and putting the turbine up high enough for it to actually work. I am 45' up and I would get a lot more energy at 60' but I like the tower I have and my neighbors would get upset if I went much higher.

    100_1486.JPG?height=320&width=240

    And even with a wind generator, there are still winter days when there really isn't much energy but they are fewer and farther between.
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  • jcgee88
    jcgee88 Solar Expert Posts: 154 ✭✭
    #6
    Re: Missouri Wind and Solar Turbine, anyone try them?
    MisterB wrote: »
    I am 45' up...

    Just curious:

    1. How did you erect such a tall tower? Use a crane?
    2. How do you get your turbine down when it needs maintenance?

    John
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  • MisterB
    MisterB Solar Expert Posts: 156 ✭✭
    #7
    Re: Missouri Wind and Solar Turbine, anyone try them?

    The tower is tilt down and there is a winch at the base on one of the tower legs. The other 2 serve as hinges when I raise or lower the tower. Here is what it looks like at the base.

    100_1483.JPG?height=240&width=320
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  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #8
    Re: Missouri Wind and Solar Turbine, anyone try them?
    MisterB wrote: »
    The tower is tilt down and there is a winch at the base on one of the tower legs. ....


    so cool, got plans or mfg name to share ?
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

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  • MisterB
    MisterB Solar Expert Posts: 156 ✭✭
    #9
    Re: Missouri Wind and Solar Turbine, anyone try them?

    It was made by Windy Dankoff sometime in the late 80s. I bought it from him when he closed down his solar & wind business to concentrate on water pumping. It was designed on the same principles as a geodesic dome and you will notice the triangles decreasing in size as you go up the tower. He originally had a Winco Wincharger on it. I got his demo Windseeker II with the tower. The tower was by far the better part of the deal.
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #10
    Re: Missouri Wind and Solar Turbine, anyone try them?

    that tower is a piece of history as an old book i had on solar and wind showed it. i forget the book's name or if i even have it anymore for if i do it's buried with other stored stuff.
    well, i didn't look too far and found the book i was referring to, but it may not be the same tower. i do remember seeing that tower before because i took a mental note seeing as how it was unique and crooked on its way up. btw, the book i was referring to was an old sams book titled wind/solar energy by edward m. noll 1st printing 1975. the front cover is missing and this was the book that delved into vawt as well as the hawt and on the subject of tip speed and the numbers of blades that i was mentally referring to information on.
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  • MisterB
    MisterB Solar Expert Posts: 156 ✭✭
    #11
    Re: Missouri Wind and Solar Turbine, anyone try them?

    I could be wrong about when he made it. I think 1975 is maybe a bit early for Windy but maybe not and the design might have been floating around for awhile. It was right next to his shop and was definitely there for show. He had several turbines and towers on the site including an old Jacobs on a really big tower--something like 80'.
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  • NewYorkMan
    NewYorkMan Registered Users Posts: 19 ✭
    #12
    Re: Missouri Wind and Solar Turbine, anyone try them?

    http://www.youtube.com/user/Fearlessthinker#p/u/3/XzsV5oV8mvM

    http://www.youtube.com/user/Fearlessthinker#p/u/4/Kw9DBQkxOLU
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  • machineman
    machineman Solar Expert Posts: 129 ✭✭✭
    #13
    Re: Missouri Wind and Solar Turbine, anyone try them?
    NewYorkMan wrote: »
    http://www.youtube.com/user/Fearlessthinker#p/u/3/XzsV5oV8mvM

    http://www.youtube.com/user/Fearlessthinker#p/u/4/Kw9DBQkxOLU

    That second video pretty much sums it up.... So would it be correct to assume that all PMA's are a scam and you will only get 1/3 of the advertized power at best?

    Off Grid Cabin, 24V 440ah 6V GC battery bank, Xantrex MPPT60-150 CC, Magnum MS4024 inverter-charger, >1200w Solar bank

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  • oil pan 4
    oil pan 4 Solar Expert Posts: 767 ✭✭✭✭
    #14
    Re: Missouri Wind and Solar Turbine, anyone try them?

    I am not ready to say they are a scam but it doesn't look like you have to worry if you only have a 400w, or trying to get the proper 500w or overbuying a 600w inverter for a PMA rated for 500w.
    If that PMA burns up my 300w grid tie I will be happy to be wrong.

    Solar hybrid gasoline generator, 7kw gas, 180 watts of solar, Morningstar 15 amp MPPT, group 31 AGM, 900 watt kisae inverter.

    Solar roof top GMC suburban, a normal 3/4 ton suburban with 180 watts of panels on the roof and 10 amp genasun MPPT, 2000w samlex pure sine wave inverter, 12v gast and ARB air compressors.

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  • MisterB
    MisterB Solar Expert Posts: 156 ✭✭
    #15
    Re: Missouri Wind and Solar Turbine, anyone try them?

    Missouri Wind & Solar is big on hype and they put a lot of ebay listings out. There are other companies that put out almost the same turbines. I get the impression that they are all getting the parts from the same source and just assembling them.

    PMA modded alternator based turbines have been around for a while. Southwest Windpower put out the Windseeker in the early 90s. Just like the ones out today, they advertised 500 watts and the turbines were really about 250 watts max. That seems the practical limit of the PMA modified car alternators unless you have winds of around 50+ mph. If you want more power, you need a bigger alternator designed for a wind turbine, preferbly 3 phase.
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  • oil pan 4
    oil pan 4 Solar Expert Posts: 767 ✭✭✭✭
    #16
    Re: Missouri Wind and Solar Turbine, anyone try them?

    This is what I have.
    http://cgi.ebay.com/Wind-Turbine-Generator-3-Blade-500-Watt-12-24-48-volt-/120695937029?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c1a09d805
    Its a copy of the Mo-wind and sun turbine with different blade.
    The blades shown on here do work in pretty low wind.
    Get the 12 or 24 volt PMA. It will talke a too many RPMs to build up to 48V.

    Then I put as set of these air-x blades on it and it doesn't turn at all in low wind.
    http://cgi.ebay.com/6-x-62-Wind-Turbine-Generator-Blades-Hub-Air-X-403-/200583246506?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eb3b172aa

    So I am going to sell the 6 blade set and pick up 3 more of those original aluminum blades and see what happens.

    Solar hybrid gasoline generator, 7kw gas, 180 watts of solar, Morningstar 15 amp MPPT, group 31 AGM, 900 watt kisae inverter.

    Solar roof top GMC suburban, a normal 3/4 ton suburban with 180 watts of panels on the roof and 10 amp genasun MPPT, 2000w samlex pure sine wave inverter, 12v gast and ARB air compressors.

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  • keyturbocars
    keyturbocars Solar Expert Posts: 375 ✭✭
    #17
    Re: Missouri Wind and Solar Turbine, anyone try them?

    Very nice looking tower MisterB. I wish I had something that nice!

    Edward
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  • machineman
    machineman Solar Expert Posts: 129 ✭✭✭
    #18
    Re: Missouri Wind and Solar Turbine, anyone try them?

    Looks at these guys PMA. They elongated the case and put 2 rotors in it.
    http://www.hurricanewindpower.com/servlet/the-175/low-wind-PMA-%2C/Detail

    Off Grid Cabin, 24V 440ah 6V GC battery bank, Xantrex MPPT60-150 CC, Magnum MS4024 inverter-charger, >1200w Solar bank

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  • MisterB
    MisterB Solar Expert Posts: 156 ✭✭
    #19
    Re: Missouri Wind and Solar Turbine, anyone try them?

    Look at the detailed specs page. It is wound for high voltage and low current. Even if it produces the rated watts, It would only realistically work in a high voltage system. And I'm immediately suspicious of any company that has to to beat the "made in the usa" drum. It indicates that they really don't have a product that stands up on it's own merits. There are good turbines made in China as well as crap ones and the same can be said for American made turbines.

    This is a mechanical hack of a car alternator, not an alternator designed from the bottom up for wind turbine use. All of the issues associated with using PMA modded car alternators for wind turbines still apply.
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  • jacobs
    jacobs Solar Expert Posts: 72 ✭✭
    #20
    Re: Missouri Wind and Solar Turbine, anyone try them?
    niel wrote: »
    that tower is a piece of history as an old book i had on solar and wind showed it.

    The plans were available for a mere $3.00 in the 1970's by Windworks in Mukwonago, Wis. It was discussed briefly in Hackleman's books. There was also a discussion on the octahedron tower on fieldlines several years ago.
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  • NewYorkMan
    NewYorkMan Registered Users Posts: 19 ✭
    #21
    Re: Missouri Wind and Solar Turbine, anyone try them?

    I have a car alternator wind turbine. It was advertised as a 800 Watt unit and does about 260 Watts @ 30 mph wind.


    I have a Windtura 500 wind turbine that I purchased after I got screwed on a car alternator wind turbine. It does about 630 Watts @ 30 mph wind.

    http://www.windynation.com/web/windtura-500-complete-wind-turbine-kit

    I have a 24V battery system.

    My opinion: DO NOT BUY A CAR ALTERNATOR WIND TURBINE.
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  • NEOH
    NEOH Solar Expert Posts: 74 ✭✭
    #22
    Re: Missouri Wind and Solar Turbine, anyone try them?

    Car Alternator Wind turbine:
    1) What was the rotor diameter ?
    2) At what wind speed (mph) was it rated at 800 Watts ?

    Windtura 500 wind turbine:
    1) What is the rotor diameter ?
    2) At what wind speed (mph) was it rated at 500 Watts ?
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  • NewYorkMan
    NewYorkMan Registered Users Posts: 19 ✭
    #23
    Re: Missouri Wind and Solar Turbine, anyone try them?

    missouri wind and solar car alternator wind turbine:

    they rate it at 800 W @ 27 mph (I see around 200 W)

    It has a approximate blade diameter of 60".


    windtura 500

    they rate it at 500 W @ 25 mph (I see around 500 W)

    I think it has a blade diameter of about 80".
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  • keyturbocars
    keyturbocars Solar Expert Posts: 375 ✭✭
    #24
    Re: Missouri Wind and Solar Turbine, anyone try them?

    From what I've seen, the WindyNation wind turbines are one of the few that are rated honestly. If I was looking to buy a smaller turbine, I'd consider one of them (or one of the smaller WindMax HY turbines). My HY-2000 has been great and was conservatively rated. It makes more power than they stated. Now, that is really impressive - especially considering it came from China! Based on my experience, the HY Energy company appears to be one of the better affordable wind turbine companies out there - regardless of country of origin.

    Edward
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  • NEOH
    NEOH Solar Expert Posts: 74 ✭✭
    #25
    Re: Missouri Wind and Solar Turbine, anyone try them?
    NewYorkMan wrote: »
    missouri wind and solar car alternator wind turbine:

    they rate it at 800 W @ 27 mph (I see around 200 W)

    It has a approximate blade diameter of 60".


    windtura 500

    they rate it at 500 W @ 25 mph (I see around 500 W)

    I think it has a blade diameter of about 80".

    That rating from Missouri Wind and Solar is way too high ...
    A 5' Rotor in a 27mph wind typically produces about 400 Watts (+/-).
    How can MWAS have a Wind Turbine that is 100% better than most real-world results?
    Really?

    The Windtura 500 is very realistically rated ...
    A 7' Rotor in 25 mph wind should produce 555 Watts (+/-)
    Windy Nation is being very honest.


    MWAS has a graph on youtube that states their 5' Rotor can make 100 Watts in 10 mph winds.
    But yet they show a live video of their Turbine in a 10 mph breeze ...
    The real world results are: 14.1 volts and 1.2 amps at 10 mph.
    Real World results = 17 Watts
    Marketing Hype = 100 Watts (off by a factor of 5!!!)
    Just using the info provided by MWAS proves they are not very honest.

    Also, the "Standard" Wind Speed used for Power Ratings is 11m/s or 24.5 MPH.
    If the Turbine's Power Output is measured at a higher wind speed (like 27mph) then they are fudging their results even more.
    It is hard to compare two Wind Turbines (apples-to-apples) when one manfacture uses 27MPH and another uses 25mph because the power output increases tremendously (by the CUBE!) as the wind speed increases.
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  • XRinger
    XRinger Solar Expert Posts: 529 ✭✭✭
    #26
    Re: Missouri Wind and Solar Turbine, anyone try them?
    NewYorkMan wrote: »
    missouri wind and solar car alternator wind turbine:

    they rate it at 800 W @ 27 mph (I see around 200 W)

    It has a approximate blade diameter of 60".


    windtura 500

    they rate it at 500 W @ 25 mph (I see around 500 W)

    I think it has a blade diameter of about 80".

    800 and you get 200 ? 25% of their rated power? Sounds like you got taken for a ride..

    Josey Wales: Well, Mr. Carpetbagger. We got somethin' in this territory called the Missouri boat ride.
    [shoots the rope hauling the ferry across the river]
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,610 admin
    #27
    Re: Missouri Wind and Solar Turbine, anyone try them?

    Easy folks... Inaccurately quoting Sgt. Friday; "...just the facts Ma'am".

    I have no other information other than what is posted here and data-sheets/reviews/etc.

    It would be difficult if I or the other Moderators had to edit for opinions when none of us are first party to any of these issues.

    Take care,
    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • XRinger
    XRinger Solar Expert Posts: 529 ✭✭✭
    #28
    Re: Missouri Wind and Solar Turbine, anyone try them?

    If you watched the video,

    http://www.youtube.com/user/Fearlessthinker#p/u/4/Kw9DBQkxOLU
    "Missouri Wind Turbine Generator - REALITY CHECK"


    You might come to the same conclusion as I did.
    The science (the facts) has been presented in a clear manner.

    Either their turbines are magic, or they fudged the numbers.
    What do you think is going on?
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,610 admin
    #29
    Re: Missouri Wind and Solar Turbine, anyone try them?

    Oh, I do agree that the specifications are several times larger than the output from a real turbine/installation.

    The situation between the various folks involved appears to be getting ugly and I don't want our friendly forum to be pulled in.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • MisterB
    MisterB Solar Expert Posts: 156 ✭✭
    #30
    Re: Missouri Wind and Solar Turbine, anyone try them?

    Just to give some historical perspective on PMA turbines and exaggerated specs, here is a listing from a 1992 catalog for a very early SW windpower turbine called Neo and later renamed Windseeker:

    NeoWind0001.jpg?height=600&width=400


    I bought the dealer demo turbine the following year and the turbine was honestly sold to me as a 250 watt turbine, not 500 watts as listed in his catalog. PMA modified car alternator turbines are nothing new, nor are exaggerated specs for them. One thing I will point out is the furling system on the Windseeker. There isn't any furling or high wind speed protection on any of the MWAS tubines which should be one of the things to look at when shopping for a turbine and something that indicates the manufacturer is serious about his product. Power output is one thing but a turbine is a mechanical device that can be dangerous if poorly made. You don't want to have the blades fly off because there is no over speed control on your turbine.
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  • XRinger
    XRinger Solar Expert Posts: 529 ✭✭✭
    #31
    Re: Missouri Wind and Solar Turbine, anyone try them?
    BB. wrote: »
    Oh, I do agree that the specifications are several times larger than the output from a real turbine/installation.

    The situation between the various folks involved appears to be getting ugly and I don't want our friendly forum to be pulled in.

    -Bill


    I hope that none of our friendly forum folks get pulled into buying a turbine,
    based on sales hype. Hopefully, prospective buyers will see those videos
    and come to the realization that some people will say anything to get a sale.

    Buying a wind turbine is tricky path for the inexperienced..
    It's good that I don't really have a good location to install one!! :roll:
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