why is solar installation so expensive? $16,000 for a few days work?

Re: why is solar installation so expensive? $16,000 for a few days work?

icarus wrote: »

Install cost comes with some significant hidden costs, including, but not limited to, engineering, labour, specialty hardware, inventory costs, specialty tools, insurances, overhead, profit, warrantee costs etc.

I may complain that my car guy gets $75/hour until I realize that he has $100,000 worth of shop and diagnosis tools that allow him to solve a problem quickly and efficiently the first time instead of him having to spend time diagnosing by replacement.

Yes, you can do it yourself, and many are more than competent to do so, but if you are looking for a proper install that is properly warranted etc there is a reason why the raw panel cost is only one factor.

Tony

All true, but $7/W seems a bit steep to me, even if it's installation PLUS equipment for a straight grid-tied system.

Re: why is solar installation so expensive? $16,000 for a few days work?

BB. wrote: »

I guess people are getting $6 per watt quoted costs... And, already, lots of companies and manufacturers are going out of business--with 30%+ or more subsidies.

solar_dave got a quote for $4.90/watt installed w/Enphase microinverters...

http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?p=76208#post76208

Of course, not knowing specifics of the install it's hard to know if $7/watt is fair or not, but it's certainly not out of the ball park (yet).

Re: why is solar installation so expensive? $16,000 for a few days work?

rollandelliott wrote: »

Why do installers quote $7/watt to install? I can get a 4.4KwH System from Sunelec
for $2.90 a watt...

That puts 4400x(7-2.90)= $18.000!!

the aluminum mounting brackets, conduit, breaker box, etc might be $500 to $1000
And although I've never done an install I figgure it might take a couple of days, max 3.

Seems like $6000 would be a more realistic install cost.

I would tend to agree that $7/watt is high. But, I sense that the
logic you use to estimate $18K as the amount contractors would
(over)charge to install this particular PV bundle is incomplete. Based
on my own experience, there are numerous important deliverables
that a contractor provides which may not be itemized on their quote
and which you have not taken into consideration.

Your formula for the total install is basically this:

Price of professional installation = ($7/watt installer proposal)
minus ($2.90/watt your cost for panels) minus ($500-1000 for
cost of balance of system)

Let's look at all three items. First, your $7/watt price:

You didn't mention where your $7/watt price came from. Normally,
a quote is specific to the location (state or city) where you are
installing and specific to the nuances of the installation site as well.
My observation is that $7/watt was the going rate about a year
ago for most places with average installation difficulty. That price
drifted downwards by more than $1/watt since then. My own
installation in June 2010 came in at $6.60/watt, and one of my
relatives installed for $5.60/watt in December 2010. So your
starting point of $7/watt seems high to me, notwithstanding
that you didn't mention anything about your site that might
justify the higher price.

Now, your $2.90/watt bundle:

The $2.90/watt price is on a specific bundle. Sunelec may
have priced it especially aggressively, i.e., it might be a loss leader
type bundle, which, if you can use it is great for you. However, it
may not be representative of what you need or want. I see at least
three items which would either further inflate this price or deflate
the value. First, it does not include shipping. The 24 panels themselves
weigh about 500 lbs, so the total package probably weighs 700 lbs.
The second issue is that the PV panels at 185 watts/panel are
essentially prior generation/older technology. 225-250 watt panels
are the sweet spot right now. If you go with the lower density panels,
you use up more roof space (less room for future expansion), and it
may be hard to get spares or extras if this older technology
discontinues soon. Lastly, the bundle is described as "for tropical
climate only." I'm not sure why they categorize it as restricted to
such climates, but taking them at their word, are you in a tropical
climate? Net net, your $2.90/watt "PV hardware cost" seems low.

Now let's look at the Balance of System costs. This is where
your formula is the most problematic, I sense.

You feel that installation should take at most three days.
For mine, with 13 panels, the onsite part took five days, with two
installers. Off site, my contractor ordered, received and consolidated
the hardware from the various suppliers, and loaded a trailer full
with equipment and tools. There's also his time spent doing onsite
surveys which included PathFinder shading analysis, the engineering
design which included PV-Watts predictions, schematics, the wind load
analysis, and the permit submissions with the county and the utility
company. Finally, after the installation was done, my contractor
came back for three inspections and spent another half day
making changes that the county inspector requested. If you add
this all up, you are on the order of 15-18 man-days of labor.

And that's not all of the deliverables. Icarus listed these:

>...specialty hardware, inventory costs, specialty tools, insurances,
overhead, profit, warrantee costs...

In addition to the above, my contractor had these further costs to
account for or to pass along: sales tax on materials, hauling away trash
from the install, custom safety labels on both the interior and exterior
circuit boxes, 8' lightning rod, customer support (Q&A before/during/after
the install). He provided a five year onsite warranty for his materials
and workmanship, and a five year subscription to the web management
software.

At the end of the day, I received a turnkey system that was optimized
for the shading conditions for my site, verified by software analysis to
be safe for 90 mph windload, fully operational, inspected and approved
by the governing authorities, and warranted to be cost-free to me for
maintenance and repair for five years (longer for the PV panels and
inverters).

So I'm not trying to defend your contractor's price. I am saying that
prices in the $5.50-7.00/watt range seem fair, if you are getting the
full range of deliverables that a job done right entails. You can
certainly do things cheaper with DIY and/or by giving up deliverables,
that's up to you.

John

Re: why is solar installation so expensive? $16,000 for a few days work?

It was enlightening to me that any Federal/State tax credit I would've gotten amounted to the near exact dollar cost of three installation quotes I received. This on the labor line item.

I felt that the installers had the labor quoting down to a science to match these credits....and then the blank stares at the request for some battery backup....sheesh. Answers like "I know someone who did that" does not provide confidence in a customer willing to shell out 18K for a 2.4KW system while on grid power is available 'till it goes dark....then the grid tie is useless.

We treat our storefront the same as any other portion of the company, a profit center. If not it is a cost center and needs to be evaluated as such.

Re: why is solar installation so expensive? $16,000 for a few days work?

My local power company held a seminar on grid tied solar last year. A couple of installers participated and the very same question came up.

What surprised me was the almost $2k in permit costs. In addition to that each installer had a full time staff member that did nothing but paperwork. There are about a half dozen agencies involved in the various tax credits and rebates. Tons of paperwork for each.

I went and watched a couple of installs being done. It is not quite as simple as you might think. Roof installs carry liability for leaks and storm damage. Pole mounts require additional permits.

Doing things right costs money, it is just that simple.

Re: why is solar installation so expensive? $16,000 for a few days work?

drees wrote: »

Yep, I don't think you can assume that a ground mount is cheaper than a roof mount. You can only assume that the costs will be different.

IME, the racking for ground mounted systems is significantly more expensive than for roof mounted ones. With a ground mounted system, you have most of the components you would use for a roof mounted system, plus you have the supporting infrastructure itself to build.

Re: why is solar installation so expensive? $16,000 for a few days work?

drees wrote: »

Someone here posted a video of how quickly his installers installed his roof mount system - they had the system physically mounted on the roof in a day with a team of 4-6 guys. 2nd day was spent doing wiring with 2 guys. And these guys obviously had a good system in place for what's probably a best case scenario for a roof install.

Drees,

The above "good case" install is pretty close to my own situation.
Based on your description, the install in the video required 12
man-days of onsite labor. (The offsite work is not described.)

My install consisted of two installers doing the following:

2 days to physically install all of the equipment on the roof;

2 days of electrical work;

.5 day of cable management, conduit work, site cleanup;

.5 day of system initialization (working with Enphase for web
registration and access), and system test & debug.

---

If you exclude the work engendered by the post-install
inspections, the total onsite installation time for mine was
10 man-days. If you do include the after-installation effort,
it works out to 12-13 man-days. My install wasn't perfect;
it had two hiccups involving parts which added a man-day
to the 12-13 man-days.

John

P.S. I saw that video and the one thing I didn't like about
their install was that they ran an ugly exterior conduit from
the roof to the circuit boxes.

Re: why is solar installation so expensive? $16,000 for a few days work?

Knd870 wrote: »

John,
Based upon your signature block, 13 man-days @ $1 per watt works out to $270 per man day, or about $33 per man hour (8 hour days). 12 man-days works out to $294 per man day, or $37 per hour.

Actually, my original install was 13 panels, even though my
sig block has 15. I had two more installed last month.
My installer's "time & material" rate is $80 per hour, although
of course, he didn't bid my job, nor did I pay, by the hour.

John

Re: why is solar installation so expensive? $16,000 for a few days work?

sub3marathonman wrote: »

Then I had to get the 21 panels up to the roof myself with no help from anybody. I was desperate and finally figured out how to lift them up using the ladder for support, and carefully carrying them over to where they were supposed to be mounted.

I made some "rookie" mistakes, but it all worked out in the end, and there is a real sense of accomplishment that you don't get paying somebody else.

Kudos to anyone who can do a complete PV system design
and install! I watched my entire install, and it looked like a
lot of fun (sort of like a giant set of tinker toys), except for
when they played inside the circuit breaker box. Besides there
being a lot of work taking place in a hot and hazardous location,
it takes a broad skill set: roofer, electrician, carpenter, solar
technologist. It must be a thrill for you (and Drees, Mr Radon,
and others) when you walk outside and see it every morning.

With regard to carrying the panels up to the roof, I was
wondering myself how they would do that. I was thinking
they would use a conveyor belt or at the minimum have
a person carry it part way up and then hand it to someone
already on the roof. Nope! All they did was have a fully
anchored ladder, and then one guy carried each panel up.
I have attached a couple of photos of how this looked.

John

Re: why is solar installation so expensive? $16,000 for a few days work?

jcgee88 wrote: »

Kudos to anyone who can do a complete PV system design
and install! I watched my entire install, and it looked like a
lot of fun (sort of like a giant set of tinker toys), except for
when they played inside the circuit breaker box.

Many (most? all?) AHJ's won't let you muck about with the AC hookup unless you are an electrician. They might well fail your inspection if you can't show that the work was licensed.

Re: why is solar installation so expensive? $16,000 for a few days work?

I ran into the same thing last year here in San Diego Conty. The other thing here is that at that time not too many people knew what they were talking about and nobody had done an off grid system.

I found a good solar supply place out of state that specialized in off grid and they designed my entire system, and walked me through the install.

It was very very easy and anyone who believes in Green Jobs being high tech should install solar. The high tech part is being done in the engineering and manufacturing which isn't done here in the U.S. Installation is a matter of connecting a-b and c-d and with good diagrams and a little assistance I would think almost anyone can do it. Your on grid so your electrician would make the final hook up to the grid. Having said that my electrician who wired my house (licensed residential electrician) knew nothing I repeat nothing about solar. So don't assume these electrician firms who say they know solar do at least not here.. (land of the rip offs and pretenders).

I heard the same thing about plans and permits and how much trouble that was, it's not true at least not in my case. I pulled all the plans for my house and for my solar. My solar guy who supplied me everything helped me draw up plans over the phone. Solar Permits are free here or were when I did it last year and I bet in your area they are very cheap. As far as rebates that was simple too. I didn't get the state (off grid exclusion) but I got the fed rebate.

I am pretty sure the host of this web site can set you up and design a system and I bet they would walk you through the install. I used a Outback system Felx 500 and it was all plug and play.

As far as it being hard physical work, that's not true, the panels are light, you may need to rent a lift for the rack or in my case a tractor but your still going to save a ton.
If you ever watch a construction crew you decide if you can out work them.. Few here in Southern CA seems to work more than 5-6 hours a day.