Xantrex sw

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Comments

  • Solar GuppySolar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,962 ✭✭✭
    Re: Xantrex sw

    I have never worked on an SW inverter, but have debug my fair share of equipment problems over the year.

    It seem highly unlikely 4 different inverters would all have the same failure, its much more likely, your AC source is the cause, I would suggest you focus on that.

    What is your AC power source? ... can you try to use a generator instead of the mains?. One other thing I would suggest is set the AC amps to a the minimum setting, this is to see if it the charger loading is causing the AC mains to have the drop out.

    Good luck!
  • boBboB Solar Expert Posts: 964 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Xantrex sw
    I have never worked on an SW inverter, but have debug my fair share of equipment problems over the year.

    It seem highly unlikely 4 different inverters would all have the same failure, its much more likely, your AC source is the cause, I would suggest you focus on that.

    What is your AC power source? ... can you try to use a generator instead of the mains?. One other thing I would suggest is set the AC amps to a the minimum setting, this is to see if it the charger loading is causing the AC mains to have the drop out.

    Good luck!

    SG sure has the right idea there !
    That's why I suggested that he take a scope and look at the AC input signal, but that was when I thought that the relay was at least clicking and trying to transfer,
    since evidently the AC IN GOOD LED was lighting.

    That LED IS lighting up, right ??

    Another idea... Take one of the inverters in question to another location and try it there.
    Just a small (ish) battery should be good enough to see if it works somewhere else with different grid.

    OR, you might want to try this late at night when the grid is less loaded ?

    The SW does work with some very bad grids though, so it is unusual for it not to work.

    boB
  • kakiwakikakiwaki Solar Expert Posts: 28 ✭✭
    Re: Xantrex sw
    I have never worked on an SW inverter, but have debug my fair share of equipment problems over the year.

    It seem highly unlikely 4 different inverters would all have the same failure, its much more likely, your AC source is the cause, I would suggest you focus on that.

    What is your AC power source? ... can you try to use a generator instead of the mains?. One other thing I would suggest is set the AC amps to a the minimum setting, this is to see if it the charger loading is causing the AC mains to have the drop out.

    Good luck!

    SG thanx for the info ................... I also am going crazy, the 2 Inverters of the 4 where working when I received them, but like magic they broke in my hands when I was swapping boards around. I also think its wierd that all 4 have the exact same prob. My AC source is straight from the Grid. I have succesfuly fixed another 3 from the same grid. I will try setting the amps and see what hapens.
  • kakiwakikakiwaki Solar Expert Posts: 28 ✭✭
    Re: Xantrex sw
    boB wrote: »
    SG sure has the right idea there !
    That's why I suggested that he take a scope and look at the AC input signal, but that was when I thought that the relay was at least clicking and trying to transfer,
    since evidently the AC IN GOOD LED was lighting.

    That LED IS lighting up, right ??

    Another idea... Take one of the inverters in question to another location and try it there.
    Just a small (ish) battery should be good enough to see if it works somewhere else with different grid.

    OR, you might want to try this late at night when the grid is less loaded ?

    The SW does work with some very bad grids though, so it is unusual for it not to work.

    boB

    Hey bob the AC IN Led only blinks, it does not stay on as the manual says. It is supposed to stay on once the relay has closed and the Inverter has synchronized the grid voltage.
  • Solar GuppySolar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,962 ✭✭✭
    Re: Xantrex sw
    kakiwaki wrote: »
    SG thanx for the info ................... I also am going crazy, the 2 Inverters of the 4 where working when I received them, but like magic they broke in my hands when I was swapping boards around. I also think its wierd that all 4 have the exact same prob. My AC source is straight from the Grid. I have succesfuly fixed another 3 from the same grid. I will try setting the amps and see what hapens.

    You may have run down your battery's, so now, when the grid connects, the charger overloads? ... I'd place a bet its not the inverters
  • boBboB Solar Expert Posts: 964 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Xantrex sw
    You may have run down your battery's, so now, when the grid connects, the charger overloads? ... I'd place a bet its not the inverters

    It doesn't even connect and the grid is NOT good (according to that LED) because the LED only blinks.

    Yes, it does sound suspicious that this only happened after the boards were swapped around, but I think you are at a stand still until you can absolutely verify that it is not the grid since the LED just blinks. At least the grid voltage should be checked at the insides of the inverter where it "thinks" it is not good enough to connect by closing the relay.

    I assume that you do not have an O-scope. Maybe you can borrow one ?

    Merry new year !
    boB
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Xantrex sw

    It does sound suspicious! Even a bad relay in most cases will try and connect and then drop-out!

    When troublshooting starts to go in circles it is best, sometimes to stand back.
    Flying parts...:D

    If I were the OP I would summerize everything and put it in a concise post on all your replys.

    I would also verify that the defaults are all loaded correctly in the input, charging and other screens. You need a manual to do this. I never heard what you saw on the meters screen for frequency before and while it is trying to connect? It is possible that relay or driver is shot and you transfered that failure to the good units. That would be unfortuanate.

    There was a guy on the old X forum that swore he was resetting the defaults
    and it ended up he was pressing the reset defaults button but not on the right screen. On an SW+ you have to be in screen 3G or at the end after it gives you the address in Arlington Wa. It will say reset defaults and then you press the softkey on the SW. Have no idea if this is the same with an export model BTW.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • kakiwakikakiwaki Solar Expert Posts: 28 ✭✭
    Re: Xantrex sw
    boB wrote: »
    It doesn't even connect and the grid is NOT good (according to that LED) because the LED only blinks.

    Yes, it does sound suspicious that this only happened after the boards were swapped around, but I think you are at a stand still until you can absolutely verify that it is not the grid since the LED just blinks. At least the grid voltage should be checked at the insides of the inverter where it "thinks" it is not good enough to connect by closing the relay.

    I assume that you do not have an O-scope. Maybe you can borrow one ?

    Merry new year !
    boB

    boB, A scope, yes I have one so ill meassure the Grid Voltage to make sure its clean but as I said I have already fixed 3 Inverters (SW) before these ...............mayb it is the damn batteries who knows. I have tested and repaired other smaller Inverters 5 in total this month but they were smaller ( 24 - 12 volt ).


    Happy New Year to you to my friend.
  • kakiwakikakiwaki Solar Expert Posts: 28 ✭✭
    Re: Xantrex sw
    It does sound suspicious! Even a bad relay in most cases will try and connect and then drop-out!

    When troublshooting starts to go in circles it is best, sometimes to stand back.
    Flying parts...:D

    If I were the OP I would summerize everything and put it in a concise post on all your replys.

    I would also verify that the defaults are all loaded correctly in the input, charging and other screens. You need a manual to do this. I never heard what you saw on the meters screen for frequency before and while it is trying to connect? It is possible that relay or driver is shot and you transfered that failure to the good units. That would be unfortuanate.

    There was a guy on the old X forum that swore he was resetting the defaults
    and it ended up he was pressing the reset defaults button but not on the right screen. On an SW+ you have to be in screen 3G or at the end after it gives you the address in Arlington Wa. It will say reset defaults and then you press the softkey on the SW. Have no idea if this is the same with an export model BTW.

    I do have a User & Service Manual, have not check all the defaults but will re do it. From what I remem the freq. was at 50hz but I need to see it again. I replaced the relay driver and the transistor too. I have changed a few IC's on the board. Im not sure if the relay is gone, when I supply external 12v on the relay coil it closes and stays closed.

    Ill try POST a summarized post.
  • RCinFLARCinFLA Solar Expert Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭
    Re: Xantrex sw
    kakiwaki wrote: »
    When I have it disconected from the AC board it works OK When its conected I get the error, the two wires coming from the trans, I remove one of them and it works OK.

    So maybe it has something to do with sensing ?????? WHO KNOWS .........................


    I did change a power board and it worked fine buttttttttttttttttttttttttt.
    My one Inverter that was OK broke from me changing boards around.
    I had 2 good INVERTERS and they stoped working after I swaped boards.

    I see you are in Greece and these are 'E' series units.

    From what you say above it sounds like maybe you have relay/sense boards from different model units. This would fit your above explaination of working units stopping after swapping boards around.

    In a more subtle variation, I don't know of Trace making interconnect changes for control ribbon cable but check relay/sense board reference number between various boards you have. There are differences between SWplus and regular SW boards but there are not any 230vac/50 Hz SWplus units.

    Don't understand getting an alarm LED with no alarms showing on meter readouts.

    Frequency meter only reads inverter so without lock you can not read ACin frequency.

    You might also check the 12 vdc line powering the ACin relay. These Deltrol relays draw about 2.6 watts (0.25 amps). If there is a bad connection in the ribbon cable there might be too much voltage drop to hold relay engaged. Pulling the ribbon cable when disconnecting them from their socket can cause bad connection on ribbon to connector wire crimp forks.

    Maybe the power company workers are taking revenge for having their retirement age raised.
  • kakiwakikakiwaki Solar Expert Posts: 28 ✭✭
    Re: Xantrex sw
    RCinFLA wrote: »
    I see you are in Greece and these are 'E' series units.

    From what you say above it sounds like maybe you have relay/sense boards from different model units. This would fit your above explaination of working units stopping after swapping boards around.

    In a more subtle variation, I don't know of Trace making interconnect changes for control ribbon cable but check relay/sense board reference number between various boards you have. There are differences between SWplus and regular SW boards but there are not any 230vac/50 Hz SWplus units.

    Don't understand getting an alarm LED with no alarms showing on meter readouts.

    Frequency meter only reads inverter so without lock you can not read ACin frequency.

    You might also check the 12 vdc line powering the ACin relay. These Deltrol relays draw about 2.6 watts (0.25 amps). If there is a bad connection in the ribbon cable there might be too much voltage drop to hold relay engaged. Pulling the ribbon cable when disconnecting them from their socket can cause bad connection on ribbon to connector wire crimp forks.

    Maybe the power company workers are taking revenge for having their retirement age raised.

    LOVED THE LAST SENTENCE ....................VERY CORRECT WE WILL ALL BE TAKING REVENGE SOON.

    About the rest of your help I will get cracking and try to solve the issues.
    I need to check each pin one by one
  • kakiwakikakiwaki Solar Expert Posts: 28 ✭✭
    Re: Xantrex sw

    Well guys still no love .......................................

    I forgot to say, not sure if it changes anything but I also have another symptom.

    The inverter is on the Batteries it is Inverting 100% but when I connect the AC1 ie grid voltage It try's 3 times to close the relay and then bam Over Current error.
    I hear the relay and also see it do its half click but it trips.

    What I noticed is that before I connect the Grid Voltage I have 220v on the relay contacts, when I connect the Grid I get 440 on the contacts, way to much, then the relay tries to close and over-current error.

    When its on charge mode it gets only one try and trips out.

    The default setting are all correct in the menu.

    :confused::confused::confused::confused:
  • RCinFLARCinFLA Solar Expert Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭
    Re: Xantrex sw

    If you are getting 440 v across relay contacts just before closure it sounds like the inverter is locking 180 degrees out of phase.

    There are several things that might cause this. There is alignment on the main controller board but I am not sure it has that range of adjustment.

    Has the voltage sense transformer been changed? If the leads have been reversed on one side it would cause unit to lock up 180 degs out of phase.

    The phase references are made from output of voltage sense transformer on inverter to output of voltage sense transformer on ACin.

    Like I said earlier, check the sense/relay board part number match.

    These units are 230v 'E' models, correct?
  • kakiwakikakiwaki Solar Expert Posts: 28 ✭✭
    Re: Xantrex sw
    RCinFLA wrote: »
    If you are getting 440 v across relay contacts just before closure it sounds like the inverter is locking 180 degrees out of phase.

    There are several things that might cause this. There is alignment on the main controller board but I am not sure it has that range of adjustment.

    Has the voltage sense transformer been changed? If the leads have been reversed on one side it would cause unit to lock up 180 degs out of phase.

    The phase references are made from output of voltage sense transformer on inverter to output of voltage sense transformer on ACin.

    Like I said earlier, check the sense/relay board part number match.

    These units are 230v 'E' models, correct?

    Yes they are 230v E ..................
    I did play around with one of the AC boards but the transformer can not be switched that easy, the wires where bent in place. Would you suggest I buy a new AC Board ? Or the main control board.
  • RCinFLARCinFLA Solar Expert Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭
    Re: Xantrex sw

    Do you have any sense/relay boards that work in unit?

    Controller board is expensive, probably hard to get, and requires calibration/alignment adjustements with scope. Should avoid if at all possible as the alignment involves calibration on voltage levels and phasing.

    If you have a dual channel scope you can set scope sync on ACin and on other channel you can watch the inverter locking process. It will slowly walk the alignment to match before attempting to engage the power relay.

    I think the 13.8vac outputs of the sense transformers are balanced (no common ground), first six pins on J1 connector. The two leads on each of three sense transformers goes into an op amp on controller board. This is where amplitude and phasing is calibrated prior to reading by Analog-Dig converter.

    Other thing I don't remember if the two large wires coming into the sense/relay board from inverter power transformers are on keyed connector or just lug screwed terminals. It might be possible that these two wires were swapped when you changed board. Polarity matters on these wires.
  • kakiwakikakiwaki Solar Expert Posts: 28 ✭✭
    Re: Xantrex sw
    RCinFLA wrote: »
    Do you have any sense/relay boards that work in unit?

    Controller board is expensive, probably hard to get, and requires calibration/alignment adjustements with scope. Should avoid if at all possible as the alignment involves calibration on voltage levels and phasing.

    If you have a dual channel scope you can set scope sync on ACin and on other channel you can watch the inverter locking process. It will slowly walk the alignment to match before attempting to engage the power relay.

    I think the 13.8vac outputs of the sense transformers are balanced (no common ground), first six pins on J1 connector. The two leads on each of three sense transformers goes into an op amp on controller board. This is where amplitude and phasing is calibrated prior to reading by Analog-Dig converter.

    Other thing I don't remember if the two large wires coming into the sense/relay board from inverter power transformers are on keyed connector or just lug screwed terminals. It might be possible that these two wires were swapped when you changed board. Polarity matters on these wires.

    Working Parts ha ha ha ha LOL ............. thats my bigest problem im not sure what is working anymore as I dont have one complete Inverter working. the one I had got damaged all of a sudden !!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I dont mind the cost of a control board as my client will pay for it but you say I will need calibration on voltage levels and phasing ????
    Is it possible that this is my error at the moment ????

    Ill try switch around the wires from the 3 large transformers and see what happens.
  • kakiwakikakiwaki Solar Expert Posts: 28 ✭✭
    Re: Xantrex sw
    RCinFLA wrote: »
    Do you have any sense/relay boards that work in unit?

    Controller board is expensive, probably hard to get, and requires calibration/alignment adjustements with scope. Should avoid if at all possible as the alignment involves calibration on voltage levels and phasing.

    If you have a dual channel scope you can set scope sync on ACin and on other channel you can watch the inverter locking process. It will slowly walk the alignment to match before attempting to engage the power relay.

    I think the 13.8vac outputs of the sense transformers are balanced (no common ground), first six pins on J1 connector. The two leads on each of three sense transformers goes into an op amp on controller board. This is where amplitude and phasing is calibrated prior to reading by Analog-Dig converter.

    Other thing I don't remember if the two large wires coming into the sense/relay board from inverter power transformers are on keyed connector or just lug screwed terminals. It might be possible that these two wires were swapped when you changed board. Polarity matters on these wires.

    How the hec do u calibrate the boards ?????
    There is no dip switches or trim pods on the boards !!!!!!!
  • kakiwakikakiwaki Solar Expert Posts: 28 ✭✭
    Re: Xantrex sw

    RCinFLA you are the man and I am so so so so DUMB.

    I knew it was something very simple and stupid, there was no reason for a working Inverter to stop all of a sudden.

    The whole problem was the two wires coming from the 3 main transformers.
    And I was 300% sure I had re connected them the correct way.

    O WELL IT WAS FUN CHATTING WITH ALL MY NEW FRIENDS HERE !!!!!

    I GOT SOME GREAT IDEAS TOO.

    BE BACK SOON.....................NOT TOO SOON I HOPE

    MAY YOU ALL HAVE A GREAT 2011
  • RCinFLARCinFLA Solar Expert Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭
    Re: Xantrex sw

    Glad to hear you got things going.

    With the inverter polarity reversed it was driving the phase lock correction in the wrong direction, driving it out of sync.

    Happy New Year.
  • boBboB Solar Expert Posts: 964 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Xantrex sw
    RCinFLA wrote: »
    Glad to hear you got things going.

    With the inverter polarity reversed it was driving the phase lock correction in the wrong direction, driving it out of sync.

    Happy New Year.


    Which means that the relay WAS engaging, at least momentarily.

    Glad it's working.

    boB
  • simatsimat Registered Users Posts: 12
    Re: Xantrex sw

    Hi,

    I'm part way through repairing a SW3024E that had a shorted L1 on the relay board causing the middle H bridge to smoke and burn. L1 has now been rewound.

    I'm going to replace all the MOSFETs and the drivers on the mosfet board, does anybody know the value of the thermistor on the last mosfet ? it reads 92k @ 25c so I guess it's a 100k but what RT profile ?

    Also, I have a relay board schematic, and have painfully drawn my own mosfet board schematic, but does anybody have the complete repair manual ?

    Best regards

    Simon.
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