Question about battery charger selection with EU2000 generator.

BB. · December 2010

Re: Question about battery charger selection with EU2000 generator.

Isn't that just wonderful... Assuming the XC exists (:roll:) and your issue is the 25 amp output is too small to fully load a Honda eu2000i.

You could look at the Yamaha series of inverter/generators (they are a bit larger in output than the Honda)--Or the Honda eu3000i... (electric start available--if interested).

Darn--with all the fancy wizbang stuff out there--One would think somebody makes a comerical PFC battery charger with programmable/adjustable output curves (even if it is just a pair of 10 turn pots)...

-Bill

Vic · December 2010

Re: Question about battery charger selection with EU2000 generator.

It is curious to me, also, that there seems to be no large, PFC corrected efficient (switcher) stand alone charger available to the off-grid market. One might think that some comapny already in the RE market, selling inverter-chargers would tweak the charger design, and package it as a stand alone charger.

I have not looked, but there are many companies making pacakged switching power supplies, that could be a capable front-end. This, plus some additional regulation circuitry and readout/user controls should do it. This is quite a lota doo-dads to add, and probably by the time one was done, it would be too expensive for the average off-gridder.

I am getting more enamored with generator driven DC charging for my second off-grid system. Using the existing MX-60 CC plus a 50 Amp 70 Volt DC supply (Transformer/FWBridge/Capacitor bank), is a very nice combo. One could prob use the Morningstar TS-60 PWM controller and same quite a lotta $$. The MX with the DC supply is very much gentler on my Honda EU generators than the SW+ inverters, when they are out of Bulk. A LARGE genset is the other solution to getting yanked around by inverter chargers.

If someone is a bit handy, many of the major parts to such a transformer/rectifier DC supply are still floating around in the surplus/recycler market ... and so on.

HNY, Good Luck. AND try contacting some of the RE manufacturers regarding the need for stand alone PFC corrected, efficient, stand alone chargers. Vic

SteveK · December 2010

Re: Question about battery charger selection with EU2000 generator.

Yes guys I'm with you, seems so simple but they want to package it with inverters. It makes me wonder about the reliability aspects i.e. do the inverter portions typically go dark when the charger sections do?

Bill I got that answer on the TC2\24V from Xantrex today then was passed through to "orders management" dept. I wasn't impressed, maybe I'm expecting too much, I dunno.

Vic I think I may have to go that route you spoke of. The Rogue manual says it's a no-no, in other words it may work but don't try it. I like the idea especially with the walls I've been running into here. My switch box is ready to accept a second supply, switch out the panels and in with the supply. Interesting solution and Happy New Year to you as well!

Well guys it appears this charger is PFC by the large input voltage and frequency tolerance:

http://www.northeastmarineelectronics.com/charles9q-24355hq-ahqseries35amp24vbatterycharger.aspx

Charles seem to be a major player in the marine industry. Neat looking thing with analog volt/amp meters, potentiometer voltage adjust, UL compliance, temperature compensation, cooling fan and a whopping 65A charge current with only 12A AC in. No charge curves yet, no PF yet and no VA spec. New years vacation till Monday. Here is what they do spec:

http://www.charlesindustries.com/marine_manual/5000HQChargers.pdf

From what you guys have taught me here they seem to be using all the right lingo and the presentation seems much more refined vs Quick Charge.

It seems I'd be good to go with their 35,45,55 and 65 Ampere units. I'd most likely go with the 35 or 45 for purely cost reasons bein $575 delivered.

I'm almost afraid to ask....crouches behind table.....what do you guys think?

stephendv · December 2010

Re: Question about battery charger selection with EU2000 generator.

Victron do a range of chargers: http://www.victronenergy.com/chargers/

The Centaur range accepts both AC 50/60Hz and 90V - 400V DC input. So if you wanted to use a DC charger you could simply take a standard 3-phase AC genset and rectify, no need to transform.

BB. · December 2010

Re: Question about battery charger selection with EU2000 generator.

Their IMC series looks like it may be closer to what you need (40 amp model). Is power factor corrected... However, no data sheets, perhaps not even shipping yet.

I don't think any of the other Chargers from them are PFC (hard to tell).

The Victron units stephendv linked to also look very interesting... A couple people here have the Victron Battery Monitors and are very happy with them.

The inverter chargers probably use some of the same switching components for both charging and inverting--Saves costs and complexity--but another single point of failure that can take out both functions (send for repair, both charger and inverter loss). Other hand, it is one spare on the self instead of both an inverter and charger...

-Bill

Vic · January 2011

Re: Question about battery charger selection with EU2000 generator.

Well, stephendv,

I'd never avoid using some real isolation twix the genset output and the output. Some real isolation is required stateside for safety reasons.
Furthermore, the transformer does allow some degree of control of the voltage from the output of the rectifier. Without the transformer the rectified filtered output voltage of the rectifier would be about 160-ish volts, with stateside 120 VAC mains.

Ripple voltage 'works' capacitors, causing heating. This is why any transformer/rectifier setup needs to have an output filter capacitor bank. It is possible that the Rogue CC's manual admonishion on using a DC power supply as its input source is due to concern about working any input capacitors . I dunno, altho, Marc is a member here, he might say something.

Vic

SteveK · January 2011

Re: Question about battery charger selection with EU2000 generator.

Yes guys the Generator is already shipped out to me. I saw this purchase as suffucient and will allow me to expand the system with a second EU generator tethered only when needed. No need to burn more fuel than absolutely required at one time. I forfeited the electric start because I figured I'd need to stay close to the process anywho so a couple pulls wouldn't kill me.

I got the new EU2000iA for $875 delivered so the price was excellent. Can't touch a Yamaha for $975.00 delivered (2400i at ~1400). I may get a cheaper construction one for the cabin build slated to commence this summer

Thanks Stephendv. That looks like a competitive solution I hadn't previously heard of. With charge curves attached and the highest PF so far of 1.

Bill, Monday I'm gonna check out your find in the Charles IMC series. I think you are right and nothing but a high efficiency PFC charger will do for me likes. Remaining question seems to be what ampere rating will best fill the genset and I hope to have those answers on Monday.

Looks like my budget for a straight-up charger needs to be revised after viewing the prices on these 40A PFC chargers. $850.00 seems the norm now. Yikes! Still seems the right way to go in order to get the most from the genny (and beyond the life of the genset I'd hope).

Vic your solution seems to be well within my $500.00 budget and I could utlize a simple PWM CC. I need to now spend some time finding a PFC supply and speak to the manufacturers of CC's. I can see this thing working out pretty darned well...

Happy New Year All!!

westbranch · January 2011

Re: Question about battery charger selection with EU2000 generator.

SteveK, I have been following your adventure with interest as I will soon have to upgrade to a 24 v system, so this discussion is very informative.
thanks for digging so deeply.

fyi I sent off a note to Axiomatic and got this reply re the 24v version:
"We normally sell the product direct - using credit card for small orders.
Pricing is C$525 per unit, plus shipping from our Toronto office."

As a side note I have been able to use my TC40 powered by a 1000i genset. How ? by using a smaller 15A charger for the initial inrush, say 10 minutes, to get around the short period where the battery will take > 40 amps, once the XBM reads in the mid 30A range the 1000i will handle the load. Did try using the TC40 with a 3000w gen but got tired of lugging 2 of them to the battery (kept secure in a shipping container when not in residence) but too much hassle. You might think that aspect through until you get everything together.

ej

icarus · January 2011

Re: Question about battery charger selection with EU2000 generator.

Eric,

You dirty dog! Why didn't I think of that? Now that I have two Eu 1000's I could have coupled them for a few minutes, and then un plugged the one! Damn!

Tony

Ps Glad it is working well for you!

SteveK · January 2011

Re: Question about battery charger selection with EU2000 generator.

Really I agree with Tony, what a great idea for your system! Sounds like you have a nice getaway there.

The Axiomatic appears pretty pricey for what it does. Thanks for checking it out! I'd need 3 or four though and that would hurt deeply.

The more I think, the more it seems the charger portion of a TR2424-120-60 could work well for me. They can be had for reasonable cost these days, contain an excellent charger and the MSW inverter isn't totally useless in a real pinch.

westbranch · January 2011

Re: Question about battery charger selection with EU2000 generator.

found a price for the IMC too and it is worse than 4 of the Axiom version...

SteveK · January 2011

Re: Question about battery charger selection with EU2000 generator.

This is so low cost it may be worth a buy and try to somebody:

It is less than $200.00, it is chinese (china direct), it is true PFC supposedly (and the real large voltage tolerance supports it). Made for EV's... Here are the "specs":.

http://www.ecitypower.com/pdf/D.pdf

CAN bus enabled too..

Just sayin' there is a low cost solution out there somewhere available. I think this may be too low cost though. Loads of EV guys are using and liking them.

Kind of risky for my blood I think.

westbranch · January 2011

Re: Question about battery charger selection with EU2000 generator.

Tony, the way I figured it out was by watching the XBM battt monitor and making note of the Amps delivered to the battery and seeing that it falls quite rapidly from the 40 amps the charger puts out when first turned on.

HNY to you
Eric

icarus · January 2011

Re: Question about battery charger selection with EU2000 generator.

LIke I said, I'm glad it is working well for you. I am very happy with the TC 20s, although I very rarely every need to use either of them. My system is almost perfectly balanced. I'm ever on the hunt for a few more watts of PV but mostly because I have just a bit of head room on the controller, and as they say,, mo' better!

Happy New year. We are going to be in the Caribou sometime this spring. Perhaps our paths (and that of Marc's might cross)

T

SteveK · January 2011

Re: Question about battery charger selection with EU2000 generator.

And to come full circle on this search. I think I'm going to order this one from Meanwell. The have a good rep and quite frankly it is one of the few out there. Charles's IMC does not exist for the next 6 months. All of those (Victron, Charles, seperate supply and CC) all come in at around $850.00 or so. This is just over $300.00. I wish I could find something like this a NAWS, I'd feel better about the purchase.....

Here is the item:

http://www.powergatellc.com/mean-well-pb-1000-24-power-supply.html

Price is right, PFC, high charge voltage. Here is the highly detailed spec:

http://www.powergatellc.com/pdfs/PB-1000.pdf

I don't quite know why it is going to consume 12A typical at 115 to produce only 1000W though. I do know I need a solution and this one is OK? And yes that was a plea for assistance

.

Thanks!

BB. · January 2011

Re: Question about battery charger selection with EU2000 generator.

Looks OK. Don't know why 12 amps at 115 volts.

-Bill

westbranch · January 2011

Re: Question about battery charger selection with EU2000 generator.

SteveK, I saw that Inrush is 25 A @ 115V and 50A @ 230 V ?? I am not sure the 2000i can handle that big a load (25A).

Also I would think that @230 Inrush should be ~1/2 of the 115V draw, but it is double??
Something is not right there.
Might want to clarify those numbers with Powergate...

see the line above 'Inrush Current' in the PDF for 'AC Current' .
the 230V draw is a bit less than 1/2 the 115 V amperage which makes sense.

Eric

BB. · January 2011

Re: Question about battery charger selection with EU2000 generator.

I believe that inrush current is somebody that copied an old non-PFC specification... The way active PFC normally works would not support large inrush currents like that.

Also, older large electronic power supplies can have upwards of 45 Amps of inrush current (--don't recall for sure, but there may be something in the NEC or other specifications that limit inrush current to a few cycles at 45 amps for a 120 VAC 15 amp circuit).

I would think the only issue with high inrush current on a genset would be if you had a regular PC (or other electronics) already running--the high inrush may cause the PC running on the same genset to reboot.

-Bill

SteveK · January 2011

Re: Question about battery charger selection with EU2000 generator.

Eric, I see your point there. I asked the Charles engineer today about their inrush current spec. He said "no worries". I don't know enough about it but these guys say no problem with the EU2000i.

You have picked out the detail in the inrush current @115 vs 230. It is double and that seems screwy. Another spec that seems screwy is the input current specs 115 vs 230. Looking at the Victron spec they say the input current is higher than double the input current of 120 (10A@120 vs 6A@240) for a 40A output. The Meanwell is the opposite. Should I just hope that the ratio has been transposed on the Meanwell and assume 10.4A@115V?!

Heh what a trip this is....

Bill, if I follow your math on the previous post I should assume 72% overall efficiency (input power vs output power) on this Meanwell....correct? Still better than the Iota's by no small margin if I hit the keys right.

This supply is a touch light for my 450aH bank, but is is a multibank charger. Handy if I add more batteries next year so as not to mix new with old batteries in one bank. Add a smaller bank with a smaller more efficient inverter for smaller loads.

BB. · January 2011

Re: Question about battery charger selection with EU2000 generator.

The actual current for the Power Gate should be:

28.8 volts * 34.7 amps * 1/0.88 eff * 1/0.95 PF * 1/115 volts = 10.4 amps

-Bill

SteveK · January 2011

Re: Question about battery charger selection with EU2000 generator.

So the chances a good that spec truly is transposed...I will buy and try this one and see how it pans out....

Thanks all for your help here.

BB. · January 2011

Re: Question about battery charger selection with EU2000 generator.

Welcome to my first engineering job--beg/borrow/steal some samples and then run tests to figure out if the products actually meet the specifications or not.

There are different ways of doing PFC--But the standard ways I am familiar with say that there should not be a high inrush current--and even if there are--it should only be a problem if you have something (typically electronic) plugged and running--before you plug in the battery charger.

The only missing thing I see is the ability to adjust the output of the power supply (at least I did not see any external voltage settings)... And you may be able to trick/trim the supply by attaching a pot/resistor network to the temperature sensor if that becomes an issue.

-Bill

SteveK · January 2011

Re: Question about battery charger selection with EU2000 generator.

This charger has some faint similarities to one of their power supply products. There are instructions on how to adjust the voltage for that supply. I suspect the components may be the same inside. Tickling the thermistor is a great idea.

I don't suppose any of you have an idea about the 8 stage charge curves furnished in the pdf? I certainly wouldn't expect them to play nice with the generator....all that cycling I feel a migrane coming on..don't see me using it at all but why the fancy analytical curve?

RCinFLA · January 2011

Re: Question about battery charger selection with EU2000 generator.

When using the inverter-generators like Honda and Yamaha you really need to have a high power factor charger or you will lose the benefit from engine speed control.

The three phase alternator with full wave rectifiers do not have sufficient filter capacitor smoothing reserve to supply peak of sinewave load currents from a normal non-power factor corrected power supply. The alternator must spin at a high enough rpm's to supply the short current peaks.

The engine will be forced to rev up to higher rpm's to avoid voltage droop at peak of sinewave.

Power factor corrected switching power supplies have a pre-boost or pre-boost/buck switcher that raises the main switchers DC input voltage during lower voltage portion of sinewave AC input. The pre-switcher has a profile to charge the filter cap with a sinewave current drawn from AC input.

westbranch · January 2011

Re: Question about battery charger selection with EU2000 generator.

RCinFla, from what you say, and I think I have noted it with my 1000i, in order to take advantage of the max gen output for a 'peak inrush load' you would need to switch the gen out of 'Eco mode' so that it is running at full throttle.
Otherwise it cannot respond fast enough to supply the max load and it will stall or trip the overload CB?
Right?

Eric

SteveK · January 2011

Re: Question about battery charger selection with EU2000 generator.

Thanks RC.

Guys, I found an actual test report of this charger online. It is in fact a 9A@115Vac input current draw for the ~1000W out, 28.8V@34.7A. If you follow this link and scroll down you will see an in depth test report for this charger.

http://www.jameco.com/Jameco/Products/ProdDS/1954341.pdf

It sure tested out sweetly, I wish they made it a little larger output wise but I'll just get a second one to go with the second EU when/if the time comes.

Eric, I was thinking that if I started the genny with the charger switch on I would charge those input capacitors relatively slowly instead of whacking them with full voltage at the peak of the power cycle. This should work if needed. Whaddya think?

Oh, and the "8 Stage Charge Cycle" listed in the previous PDF is a battery reconditioning routine designed to desulphate lead acid batteries. The analysis portion of this curve determines the final charging stage of the bank. This routine is designed to be run repeatedly until progress is made in the desulphation process. Hooey? Who knows, hope I never have the opportunity to try it......

Mine will arrive Monday, I'll confirm what I can and report back in order to bring this post full circle. And the generator arrives today....drools in anticipation..:roll:

Now for the Trimetric or something.....

Steve

RCinFLA · January 2011

Re: Question about battery charger selection with EU2000 generator.

I am not sure what the reference to inrush current is in this context. My definition is transient turn-on inrush like if the charger was cycling on and off to regulate battery voltage or a refrig compressor startup. Most chargers are continously variable so they don't have the off-on loading transients.

A permanent magnet alternator output voltage, for a given current load, depends on its rpm's. Lighter load current results in higher voltage, heavier load results in lower voltage.

The ECO control monitors the DC voltage at alternator rectifier outputs. With some loss for switching MOSFET's, it must develope about 180 vdc for the MOSFET PWM switching to hit the 170 volt peak of a 120 vrms sinewave. If the load is light and the voltage rises, the engine speed is reduced to bring the DC voltage back down to about 180 vdc.

When you turn off ECO (engine at full speed) with no load on generator, the alternator output rises to about 280-300 volts. It can handle the highest power surges like a refrig compressor startup because engine is already spinning fast. The alternator output voltage dip stays above 180 volts during the surge dip.

If you have a scope and look at the output waveform it will look like a nice sinewave. If ECO is on, engine speed reduced with light load, then you plug in a heavy load like a 1000 watt hair drier, the peak of the sinewave will slump and clip for a few cycles as the engine speeds up to handle the heavier load.

For a non-power factor corrected power supply, all the power is transferred is a short period near the peak of the sinewave with almost no current flow during rest of cycle. This results in a higher peak current demand on the AC source.

Ralph Day · January 2011

Re: Question about battery charger selection with EU2000 generator.

RCinFLA wrote: »

For a non-power factor corrected power supply, all the power is transferred is a short period near the peak of the sinewave with almost no current flow during rest of cycle. This results in a higher peak current demand on the AC source.

This is also the reason to de-rate your ac genset when charging as above, 70 to 75% of rated capacity so things don't overheat. Of course that depends on generator quality and the operating temperature in the genset's environment.

SteveK · January 2011

Re: Question about battery charger selection with EU2000 generator.

Thanks again Ralph and RC. This thread does explain it all to a relative newb like me, hopefully someone else like me will stumble on this and gain a great amount of knowledge in their research. This forum is "Da Bomb".

I posted a link to a china direct charger company earlier. I sent a question to them and just heard back from them. For the sake of recording the info I post it here.

_________________________________________________________________

Hi,

Thank you! It will overload.

On Mon, Jan 3, 2011 at 12:18 AM, <ecitypower@gmail.com> wrote:

From:
Email:

I Wrote:

Regarding: Alloy Shell 1200W LiFePo4/Lithium Ion/SLA Battery Charger

What is the maximum line current used by this @ 117VAC and 60hz. I will be
using a generator that can only produce 13.3A AC constantly. Would this
supply overload it?

Max AC line current = ?

Thanks
_________________________________________________________________

Soooo, no warm and fuzzy feeling on this one. A definate no-go.

Brock · January 2011

Re: Question about battery charger selection with EU2000 generator.

Just read through this all. My question is if your using an inverter genset doesn't the load on the motor already get PF corrected by the inverter portion? I had assumed it did, but by reading all this it looks to not be the case.

Also why was the iota ruled out, cost? I really like them, have a DLS-54-13 that I can run using my idling VW jetta TDI with a xantrex xpower 1500w inverter no problem.

Question about battery charger selection with EU2000 generator.

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