Wind Turbine in NE Ohio ?

NEOHNEOH Solar Expert Posts: 74 ✭✭
In NE Ohio we have 11 MPH (avg) winds in the 6 cold months and 9 MPH (avg) during the 6 warm months. I live on a nice hill about 30' above the road. No trees or other obstruction. Realistically, how many KWH's would the complete DIY 10' HAWT Axial Flux kit, from otherpower for $1,750 + pole, rated 800W on a 30' Pole really produce per month?

I use about 1,500 KWH's per month, all electric home, budget at $120 per month.
I am trying to determine the # of months for Break-Even for the Wind Turbine.
«1

Comments

  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 28,144 admin
    Re: Wind Turbine in NE Ohio ?

    Just out of curiosity, if you could get 200-300 kWH per month from the setup (during your windy season)--Would that work for you?

    Also, are you looking at a Grid Tied or Off Grid setup?

    Normally, we recommend that people look at conservation and alternative fuels for heating/cooking first.

    Solar (and Wind) power is usually fairly expensive--and Off Grid power is much more (probably 10x the cost of utility power once you take all of the hardware, batteries, and battery replacement every 4-8+ years into account).

    Changing out to a heat pump instead of resistance heating for space heating and hot water as a start... However, in winter, you would probably need resistance backup heat anyway.

    Insulation (lots of attic, wall, weather stripping). Converting to Propane (or natural gas) for stove/hot water/heating where it makes economic sense, etc.

    Also, do you have a large enough property to mount the the turbine(s) and keep them far enough from your's and your neighbor's homes (turbine whine, blade noise, flickering shadows from blades, etc.).

    Also, in general, small wind is not very efficient or cost effective. If you are going Grid Tied and use that much power, a single large turbine usually generates more power for lower costs than a bunch of smaller turbines.

    If you have grid power and want backup power (ice storms, etc.)--It is sometimes better to install a grid tied solar system (low costs, efficient, low maintenance) and have a propane/diesel/etc. genset for backup power for those "rare" random power outages.

    And note that I am not a big fan of wind power--I tend to be in the conservation/solar PV camp.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • NEOHNEOH Solar Expert Posts: 74 ✭✭
    Re: Wind Turbine in NE Ohio ?

    Only 200 - 300 KWH per month and only during the windy months?
    Yikes!
    That is less than 1/2 of what the local WT Dealer stated.
    More Marketing Hype?

    I already installed Geothermal for Heating, Cooling and HW. I used 2” x 6” Studs for all of the exterior walls and then I added 4” of Brick. Our home is very well insulated. Our Monthly Utility bill is only $120. We cannot cut back energy usage that much more. I have 13 acres total and I have cleared 5 acres for this Wind / Solar project. I was planning on using the Grid-Tie option.

    Pay-back calculation for a $2,000 DIY 10’ WT …
    200 KWH/mo x $0.08/KWH = $16.00/mo
    300 KWH/mo x $0.08/KWH = $24.00/mo

    $2,000 / $16 / 6 months = 21 Years!
    $2,000 / $24 / 6 months = 13 Years!

    That is a lot longer than I ever expected. I can definately install a 30’ Pole and assemble a 10’ DIY WT to gain the experience. Then I can move up to a 15’ WT at a later date. I decided to use a DIY WT because I can get parts and fix it myself. A 15’ WT would generate double the KWH in the winter and generate some useable energy durng the calmer 6 summer months, too.

    In the past 3 years, ten SWWP SkyStream 3.7 (12’) Wind Turbines have been installed in my area. The Local newspaper is stating: Turns your Electric Meter backwards, Pays for itself in 5 years, Receive Energy Grants, Receive Tax Credits, etc. But, I have read several horror stories about SWWP and the SkyStream 3.7. I am contacting all of those WT owners to see how well the SkyStream 3.7 is actuallly performing.

    One farmer installed a $60,000 10KW Wind Turbine on a 100’ Tower. He received a $29,000 Ohio Green Energy Grant and a $4,000 Tax Credit. That really helped reduce the pay-back time. The dealer stated in the newspaper, “It will pay for itself in 5 years. Then they will have free electricity for life."

    Uhm,
    How long does a Wind Turbine last?
    How much does the maintenance cost after the 5 year waranty is over?

    DIY Solar was Phase Two of my project:
    Assuming:
    1) 300 KWH per month
    2) 4.5 Hours per day (avg)
    3) 30.5 Days per month
    4) $1.5 per watt

    300,000 / 4.5 / 30.5 x $1.5 = $3,300 in Solar Cells!

    But the Solar cells will produce 300 KWH all 12 months, so 6 – 10 year pay back.
    How long do Solar Cells work before they degrade?

    So, using a $2,000 10’ WT and $3,300 of Solar Cells I can reduce my electricity requirements by 40%.

    It appears to be very expensive to live off of Renewable Energy.
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 28,144 admin
    Re: Wind Turbine in NE Ohio ?
    NEOH wrote: »
    Only 200 - 300 KWH per month and only during the windy months?
    Yikes!
    That is less than 1/2 of what the local WT Dealer stated.
    More Marketing Hype?
    Again, I am certainly no Wind Expert--I tend to be "conservative" on power estimates and for wind--siting issues are hugely local and anything that I would attempt to guess here would be less authoritative than from a reputable local dealer.

    From an engineering point of view--actual performance within a factor of two of estimated performance is actually not that far off... Wind energy goes with the cube of wind speed. So any local conditions (up wind buildings/trees, variability with local site hills/dales, and small changes in average wind) can dramatically affect output.
    I already installed Geothermal for Heating, Cooling and HW. I used 2” x 6” Studs for all of the exterior walls and then I added 4” of Brick. Our home is very well insulated. Our Monthly Utility bill is only $120. We cannot cut back energy usage that much more. I have 13 acres total and I have cleared 5 acres for this Wind / Solar project. I was planning on using the Grid-Tie option.
    Cool--That is not bad for an all electric home.
    Pay-back calculation for a $2,000 DIY 10’ WT …
    200 KWH/mo x $0.08/KWH = $16.00/mo
    300 KWH/mo x $0.08/KWH = $24.00/mo

    $2,000 / $16 / 6 months = 21 Years!
    $2,000 / $24 / 6 months = 13 Years!
    At $0.08 per kWH--It is very difficult to match that with any solar based system...

    Solar PV in the southwest with lots of sun and tax credits/rebates can come close though...
    That is a lot longer than I ever expected. I can definitely install a 30’ Pole and assemble a 10’ DIY WT to gain the experience. Then I can move up to a 15’ WT at a later date. I decided to use a DIY WT because I can get parts and fix it myself. A 15’ WT would generate double the KWH in the winter and generate some usable energy during the calmer 6 summer months, too.
    Your costs also sound low... Around here, building permits and a GT inverter will cost more than $2,000... Plus, the wind turbines themselves tend not to the expensive part--it is the tower and installation costs that are usually the major part of the bill.
    In the past 3 years, ten SWWP SkyStream 3.7 (12’) Wind Turbines have been installed in my area. The Local newspaper is stating: Turns your Electric Meter backwards, Pays for itself in 5 years, Receive Energy Grants, Receive Tax Credits, etc. But, I have read several horror stories about SWWP and the SkyStream 3.7. I am contacting all of those WT owners to see how well the SkyStream 3.7 is actually performing.
    A SkyStream, when working to spec. seems to turn out an impressive amount of power for a small wind system. However, the inverter in the turbine nacelle seems to be a week point.

    And add that sticking any electronic/mechanical system on top of a tower in the wind/rain/sun/freezing weather and striking with lightning once in a while just not a recipe for a long trouble free life.
    One farmer installed a $60,000 10KW Wind Turbine on a 100’ Tower. He received a $29,000 Ohio Green Energy Grant and a $4,000 Tax Credit. That really helped reduce the pay-back time. The dealer stated in the newspaper, “It will pay for itself in 5 years. Then they will have free electricity for life."
    The two great unknowns with any turbine system--How much power will the generate year over year, and what will the maintenance costs/service life be...
    Uhm,
    How long does a Wind Turbine last?
    How much does the maintenance cost after the 5 year waranty is over?
    Others with more experience than I will probably have better answers...

    My own two cents--If the wind turbine lasts longer than 5 years between major overhales/replacment--that is probably a good system.

    For electronics (Grid Tied Inverter), I would plan on replacing the entire inverter every 10-15 years (i.e., cash in bank). And you may end up with repairs in the 5-10 year period.
    DIY Solar was Phase Two of my project:
    Assuming:
    1) 300 KWH per month
    2) 4.5 Hours per day (avg)
    3) 30.5 Days per month
    4) $1.5 per watt
    Using PVWatts to predict output for Akron Ohio, start with a round number of 1 kW of solar cells, fixed array and 0.77 system derating (defaults):
    "Station Identification"
    "City:","Akron"
    "State:","Ohio"
    "Lat (deg N):", 40.92
    "Long (deg W):", 81.43
    "Elev (m): ", 377
    "PV System Specifications"
    "DC Rating:"," 1.0 kW"
    "DC to AC Derate Factor:"," 0.770"
    "AC Rating:"," 0.8 kW"
    "Array Type: Fixed Tilt"
    "Array Tilt:"," 40.9"
    "Array Azimuth:","180.0"

    "Energy Specifications"
    "Cost of Electricity:"," 8.5 cents/kWh"

    "Results"
    "Month", "Solar Radiation (kWh/m^2/day)", "AC Energy (kWh)", "Energy Value ($)"
    1, 2.40, 59, 5.01
    2, 3.38, 74, 6.29
    3, 4.21, 99, 8.42
    4, 4.76, 106, 9.01
    5, 5.33, 119, 10.12
    6, 5.41, 112, 9.52
    7, 5.53, 118, 10.03
    8, 5.40, 116, 9.86
    9, 5.15, 110, 9.35
    10, 4.08, 94, 7.99
    11, 2.48, 55, 4.67
    12, 2.03, 48, 4.08
    "Year", 4.18, 1112, 94.52
    That is 1,112 kWH per year... If you want 300 kWH per month or 3,600 kWH per year:
    • 3,600 kWH per year / 1,112 kWH per year per 1kW of panels = 3.24 kWatts of solar panels
    A turn key Grid Tied Installation may be in the $6,000-$7,000 per 1 kW of solar panels ($6-$7 per watt installed).
    You can get a Federal Tax Credit and sometimes state/local incentives

    www.dsireusa.org

    Perhaps you can save ~1/3 or so of the cost if you do your own install (if possible).
    300,000 / 4.5 / 30.5 x $1.5 = $3,300 in Solar Cells!

    But the Solar cells will produce 300 KWH all 12 months, so 6 – 10 year pay back.
    How long do Solar Cells work before they degrade?
    Your total costs will probably be more (shipping costs, mounting racks, wiring, GT inverter, permits, etc.)--And that assumes your local utility allows Grid Tied Solar (not all do).

    Solar panels should last 20-40 years... There are natural events (hail, vandals, etc.) that can reduce the service life of panels. And even good quality vendors have been known to have field failures (my 3.5 kW array is "current in the shop" for warranty replacement--I hope within the next three months--After 5 years of service:cry:).
    So, using a $2,000 10’ WT and $3,300 of Solar Cells I can reduce my electricity requirements by 40%.

    It appears to be very expensive to live off of Renewable Energy.
    My "advantage"--I live in Northern California where our average residential power costs are in the $0.15 to $0.30 per kWH depending on how much you use and where you live. I am on a time of use plan which ranges from $0.09 off peak to $0.57 per kWH summer afternoon peak for high usage (~>1,000 kWH per month for my area).

    Only thing I can say is watch your personal power usage and what your power company / state legislature will do to your power bills in the future.

    I may sidestep the high power bills with 1 year net metered solar--but the job situation in California is still looking pretty bleak because of high business and living expenses.

    In the end, put the stuff in a spread sheet (costs/power output/expenses) in a spread sheet and make sure it makes economic sense for you.

    For Wind Turbines, I would want an installer to show me the monthly power output (measured with a dedicated kWH meter on the turbine) for at least a 1 year period before I went with commercial wind.

    For a DIY project... If you can get away with a $2,000 installed system--Go for it and see how well it does for you. That is a lot less than a commercial install of a typical GT Turbine system (from what little I have seen).

    Add links about wind power:

    Wind Power Links
    www.otherpower.com (good forum for DIY Wind Power)
    www.greenpowertalk.org (added from "russ"--Like here but more wind/less solar)
    Small windpower a scam ? Survey says SO
    Truth About Skystream & SWWP

    And a general DIY Solar Builder site:

    www.builditsolar.com

    And, there are other solar projects that may make real good sense for DIY... Solar Thermal for space heating/hot water can have much better ROI than Wind or Solar PV systems... This thread is a mixture of lots of frequently asked questions and answers (in no particular order):

    Working Thread for Solar Beginner Post/FAQ

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • NEOHNEOH Solar Expert Posts: 74 ✭✭
    Re: Wind Turbine in NE Ohio ?

    OK, I got some "interesting" information from a nearby home owner with a SWWP Sky Stream 3.7 (12') Grid-Tie Wind Turbine on a 35' Monopole on 10 acres of cleared land.

    First the Local Dealer claims ...
    1) Will reduce your $200 Electric Bill by 50% ($100 per month savings)
    2) Will generate 400 KWH per month
    3) Will pay for itself in just 5 years

    Wow, that sounds reasonable. Right ?
    Wrong !

    Here is the actual data from a 2 year period from the home owner ...
    1) Reduced their Electric Bill by $20 per month (avg)
    2) Creates only 250 KWH per month (avg)
    3) Will pay for itself in 33 years

    They are not happy with their wind turbine. These actual results are extremely low when compared to the original estimates / claims. If I had any of this in writing I would sue the dealer and prevent him from selling Wind Turbines ever again.

    Cost was $15,000 for the complete installation.
    $4,000 Federal Tax Credit
    $3,000 Ohio Energy Grant
    46% off this installation was funded by the Tax Payer.
    $8,000 "Net Cost" to the home owner.
    So, $8,000 / ( $20 per month x 12 months ) = 33 Year Break-Even.
    That's assuming there are no maintenance costs for the next 30 years.
    It has broken twice and it has taken several weeks to repair each time.

    Unless you have wind speeds at or above 12 MPH AVG per month then I do not understand how you can cost justify a Wind Turbine. The Local Dealer is really, really exaggerating the facts ...

    1) Dollars rebated: $20 actual vs $100 claimed - off by a factor of 5 !
    2) KWH generated: 250 actual KWH vs 400 KWH claimed - off by 50% !
    3) Years to Payback: 33 yrs actual vs 5 yrs claimed - off by a factor of 6 !

    The Local Dealer stated in the newspaper, "If you install two of these Sky Stream 3.7 Wind Turbines you can eliminate your $200 per month Electric Bill entirely!" He just conveniently forget to mention that this NOT possible anywhere within a 75 mile radius of his local dealership. I believe this is outright fraud. Even worse this activity is being funded by the Tax Payer by almost 50% of cost. There are 40 completed Wind Turbine installations in my area. And there are 30 new Wind Turbines pending installation. But there are no signs of any Solar Panel installations. How can this be?
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 28,144 admin
    Re: Wind Turbine in NE Ohio ?

    Your neighbor's experiences sound about par for the course...

    Small wind is very difficult to justify and install for a cost effective price.

    Wind can make sense in a few areas with high winds and as a supplement for off-grid Solar PV power (bad weather, winter time, etc.)--But is is not, and probably will never be, a "cheap" alternative to solar + fossil fuel fired gensets.

    The numbers given by the local installer sound like an ideal installation in California where $0.40 per kWH electric bills are possible (we have tiered rates--the more power you use, the higher the rates they charge--add time of use / summer period and it can approach $0.57 per kWH or more). For a location with $0.08 per kWH costs--virtually nothing solar/wind/etc. will touch utility power costs unless it is grid tied solar in the Southwestern US with lots of tax breaks and local subsidies.

    It would be interesting to see if somebody could collect for false advertising (have a newspaper quote that may backup what was verbally conveyed to the customer)--But I have not heard of any being successful yet...

    Wonder if the state's (or federal) attorney general would take it on from the tax fraud side of the equation?

    NEOH--What are your plans going forward?

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • solar_davesolar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,335 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Wind Turbine in NE Ohio ?

    You know for sure they will never put the saving in as part of the terms in the contract. It certainly needs to have some push back as to what is possible in a realistic installation. This almost sounds like fraud.
  • solarvicsolarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭
    Re: Wind Turbine in NE Ohio ?

    North east ohio I live northwest pa mercer co. which borders Ashtubula county and I went to an openhouse for a sky stream near Pierpont, oh. Spring before last. The dealer was there trying to sell more installations. The homeowners had an older 2 story house with a new heatpump and another good sized outbuilding with a new heatpump and they were thinking the wind turbine was going to supply all the electric for thier heat ect. Wonder if this is the same turbine you posted about. We have 3 different state parks in Mercer county that has wind turbines installed to promote wind energy. I went to a meeting about the one they had and the administer there figured the 1st yeay output would make about 400.00 worth of electric if they were lucky enough to keep it running. :Dsolarvic:D
  • MisterBMisterB Solar Expert Posts: 156 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Wind Turbine in NE Ohio ?
    Cost was $15,000 for the complete installation.
    $4,000 Federal Tax Credit
    $3,000 Ohio Energy Grant
    46% off this installation was funded by the Tax Payer.
    $8,000 "Net Cost" to the home owner.
    So, $8,000 / ( $20 per month x 12 months ) = 33 Year Break-Even.
    That's assuming there are no maintenance costs for the next 30 years.
    It has broken twice and it has taken several weeks to repair each time.

    I found myself last year in the ironic position of being the owner of a small wind turbine opposing a big wind project. I live in Northern New Mexico and this is really a really good area for solar but marginal for wind. There is a lot of wind here but it is inconsistant and very seasonal and if you do the math, you will not harvest a lot from it over a year, especially given the costs of maintaining a wind turbine. Wind is good as suplimental energy source in an off the grid solar system but you are not going to make money on it around here. There was a lot of federal stimulus money for anything that could be labled green last year and one of our local busnessmen proposed putting a 40 turbine wind farm in our area. I don't remember the wattage but each turbine was going to be on a 400 foot tower. This generated a lot of opposition in a county where you are going to get into some kind of fight to put up a 4 story condo. And knowing from personal experience that this is not prime wind country, I wrote a couple of blog comments about it in the online comment section of our local newspaper which generated extreme reactions both pro and con. The whole thing was shot down in court by the neighboring property owners who had a solid case of the wind farm adversely affecting their property values--and the economic viability of the project really didn't enter into the court argument.

    As good an idea as subsidizing alternative energy may be, it is not being well administered and this is being taken advantage of on both a small and large scale.
  • NEOHNEOH Solar Expert Posts: 74 ✭✭
    Re: Wind Turbine in NE Ohio ?

    BB - "... NEOH--What are your plans going forward? ..."
    A Wind Turbine does not appear to make financial sense in N.E. Ohio at this point in time. Unless, I were to move 100 miles North to the actual shoreline of Lake Erie where it is much windier. And that ain't going to happen. Actually, any Green Energy (except Geothermal which I already have) is difficult to cost justify when Eletricity only costs $0.08 / KWH. So, I looked at the Solar Panel Rebate for Ohio - It is "SUSPENDED until Further Notice" because they already have more applications than remaining funds. The Solar Panel Rebate Fund needs to be replenished by another vote of State Congress. The Solar Panel Rebate was $3 / DC KW with a Max of $25,000. Typically, almost a 50% Rebate of the total installed solar cost. Without the State Solar Rebate, Solar Panels too expensive.

    A 2KW Solar Panel Grid Tie System costs about $8,000 (+/-).
    It will save me about $20 / Month on my Electric Bill.
    $8,000 / $20 / 12 = 33 years payback

    Until my Electricity Rates triple or quadruple I cannot afford Solar or Wind.

    solarvic - "... HeatPump ..." Yuk? I would definately not use a Heat Pump in NE Ohio (or anywhere) since you will need to use your Auxillary Resistive Element for Back-Up Heat when the Oustide Air starts dropping below 45 Degrees. Heat Pump efficiency drops dramatically as the outside temp goes below 45 Degrees (less and less heat to pump inside). I have never used my Aux Heating in 10 years. My Geothermal Coil is buried in the 50F Degree soil all winter long - very, very efficient even when teh Air Temp is below 0 Degrees outside. Also, in the summer during A/C cooling, the Heat Pump is trying to push the house heat oustide into 90 Degree Air - again very inefficient. While my Geothermal is easily cooling my house with a coil in 50 Degree soil.

    In fact, my Geothermal transfers MORE Heat Energy, into my house when Heating and out of my house when Cooling, than it consumes in electricity. Now, that is what I call "GREEN".

    Geothermal costs about $4,000 more than regular HVAC install but saves me $80 AVG per month - almost $1,000 savings per year. My payback was in just 4 years -that occured in 2004.

    Wind Turbines and Solar Panels are still way too expensive for me even when subsided by neighbors via rebates and tax credits.
  • JESSICAJESSICA Solar Expert Posts: 289
    Re: Wind Turbine in NE Ohio ?
    NEOH wrote: »
    In NE Ohio we have 11 MPH (avg) winds in the 6 cold months and 9 MPH (avg) during the 6 warm months. I live on a nice hill about 30' above the road. No trees or other obstruction. Realistically, how many KWH's would the complete DIY 10' HAWT Axial Flux kit, from otherpower for $1,750 + pole, rated 800W on a 30' Pole really produce per month?

    I use about 1,500 KWH's per month, all electric home, budget at $120 per month.
    I am trying to determine the # of months for Break-Even for the Wind Turbine.

    Also just out of curiosity:

    $120 for 1,500 KWH?
    How much for kwh in your state?

    In Puerto Rico, it is 24 cents per kwh. In fact, just last month I paid $75 for 300 kwh!
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 28,144 admin
    Re: Wind Turbine in NE Ohio ?

    His is $0.08 per kWH at the current time...

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • BilljustBillBilljustBill Solar Expert Posts: 212 ✭✭✭
    Re: Wind Turbine in NE Ohio ?
    MisterB wrote: »
    I found myself last year in the ironic position of being the owner of a small wind turbine opposing a big wind project. I live in Northern New Mexico and this is really a really good area for solar but marginal for wind. There is a lot of wind here but it is inconsistant and very seasonal and if you do the math, you will not harvest a lot from it over a year, especially given the costs of maintaining a wind turbine. Wind is good as suplimental energy source in an off the grid solar system but you are not going to make money on it around here. There was a lot of federal stimulus money for anything that could be labled green last year and one of our local busnessmen proposed putting a 40 turbine wind farm in our area. I don't remember the wattage but each turbine was going to be on a 400 foot tower. This generated a lot of opposition in a county where you are going to get into some kind of fight to put up a 4 story condo. And knowing from personal experience that this is not prime wind country, I wrote a couple of blog comments about it in the online comment section of our local newspaper which generated extreme reactions both pro and con. The whole thing was shot down in court by the neighboring property owners who had a solid case of the wind farm adversely affecting their property values--and the economic viability of the project really didn't enter into the court argument.As good an idea as subsidizing alternative energy may be, it is not being well administered and this is being taken advantage of on both a small and large scale.

    Your work is your own reward...Well done!!

    These big wind farm companies have contracts that have hidden sections in a language of words that even a lawyer has overlooked. One company out in West Texas told the farmers that "they would have a wind turbine or in four years the contract would expire". They didn't say that for the one dollar an acre lease they paid, for those that didn't get a wind turbine, a "surviving clause" had tie up the air rights over their land for 28 years for a one time payment of $3,500. To add insult to injury, that payment wouldn't be made until the wind turbine that marked half of the 700+ turbines was erected and in operation!!! And buried deep in the 10-15 page lease are restrictions that apply during all 28 years of that lease. No where on the owner's property could the owner errect anything or plant trees that would exceed 40' in height without their written permission!!!

    Those landowners that got wind turbines also signed away the rights to the wind company to put down maintenance roads nobody else can use, the possibility of a small utility buildings being built on their land, and if the owner's land had a gravel pit, they had to sell the product to them. Even though they would pay current prices for the road material, the contract was written saying the wind company DID NOT/WOULD NOT have to reclaim/repair the area they dug out....

    They operate just like a low-rent used car lot.... Be careful when dealing with them!! Plus, some new data about those large wind turbines show that there are physical dangers of living within a mile of one. Low frequency sound waves from the blades and the "Flicker Effect" or moving shadows of the blades are causing health problems. Just Google to see the many problems.

    Bill
    Bill
  • WadeWade Registered Users Posts: 9 ✭✭
    Re: Wind Turbine in NE Ohio ?
    Also, do you have a large enough property to mount the the turbine(s) and keep them far enough from your's and your neighbor's homes (turbine whine, blade noise, flickering shadows from blades, etc.).
    -Bill

    This is the turbine whine Bill is talking about. This one is 100 feet away.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHH86TV4YUo
  • BilljustBillBilljustBill Solar Expert Posts: 212 ✭✭✭
    Re: Wind Turbine in NE Ohio ?
    Wade wrote: »
    This is the turbine whine Bill is talking about. This one is 100 feet away.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHH86TV4YUo

    There was a Dallas/Ft. Worth Metroplex TV reporter that covered the home size wind generators' and the high pitch whine that varied with the speed of the wind. On the TV reporter's microphone, you could hear what sounded like the gearbox whine. It was akin to a drunk cranking one of those old police sirens...

    The turbines I spoke of were the 200' diameter rotors that turn just 18 rpm. Here's a link to the big ones' problems.

    http://www.windaction.org/news/27655

    Bill
    Bill
  • russruss Solar Expert Posts: 593
    Re: Wind Turbine in NE Ohio ?

    www.windaction.org is not a site to go to for unbiased information - Whatever I have read there over the past couple of years is very anti wind.

    They are happy to repeat any tale or fable that comes to their ears.
  • BilljustBillBilljustBill Solar Expert Posts: 212 ✭✭✭
    Re: Wind Turbine in NE Ohio ?
    russ wrote: »
    www.windaction.org is not a site to go to for unbiased information - Whatever I have read there over the past couple of years is very anti wind.

    They are happy to repeat any tale or fable that comes to their ears.

    Have you found any other sites that report those type of problems larger home-size and industrial size turbines cause?

    I ran across these U-tube videos:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxb7jXi-_Xo

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hDHHAqErjo
    Bill
  • russruss Solar Expert Posts: 593
    Re: Wind Turbine in NE Ohio ?

    Afraid I consider the 'wind turbine syndrome' to be 110% fruitcake.

    The bad part about the net is that anyone who wants becomes an instant expert and if they link up with a few other crazies pretty soon they have come up with new 'truth and facts' - supported by what each other says.

    It is easy enough to find a doctor to support most anything that can't be tested for.

    Russ
  • BilljustBillBilljustBill Solar Expert Posts: 212 ✭✭✭
    Re: Wind Turbine in NE Ohio ?
    russ wrote: »
    Afraid I consider the 'wind turbine syndrome' to be 110% fruitcake.

    The bad part about the net is that anyone who wants becomes an instant expert and if they link up with a few other crazies pretty soon they have come up with new 'truth and facts' - supported by what each other says.

    It is easy enough to find a doctor to support most anything that can't be tested for.

    Russ

    I'm just curious, I was wondering if you work in the wind power industry?

    Bill
    Bill
  • russruss Solar Expert Posts: 593
    Re: Wind Turbine in NE Ohio ?
    I'm just curious, I was wondering if you work in the wind power industry?

    Bill

    Nope - I am retired and never worked for any type of RE firm.

    I spent many years in a lot of places with loud and funny noises and lights - from being on board ship back in the 60's to industrial plants. Flickering images - not uncommon. Magnetic fields - not uncommon. An industrial plant has hundreds of miles of wiring - bothering people - no.

    My opinion - A very few people do have strange ailments. Many people have strange heads. Too many people have their hand out hoping for someone to drop cash in it when they cry.

    Russ
  • jcgee88jcgee88 Solar Expert Posts: 154 ✭✭
    Re: Wind Turbine in NE Ohio ?
    I ran across these U-tube videos:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxb7jXi-_Xo

    Bill,

    I watched this Wisconsin farmer's speech, plus more than
    a dozen other videos* that Youtube suggested were related.
    I have to say that that farmer certainly was passionate
    and had done more homework than most people would.

    [*one of the more ironic videos was done by a new,
    proud owner of two Skystreams. While his video was
    meant to show off how well they were operating, I could
    hear in the background the characteristic Skystream
    "whine" that people complain about. I kept thinking to
    myself, I wonder how long it will be before he gets
    tired of that noise in his backyard?]

    The various videos suggest the following main issues:

    1. Too loud
    2. Flickering
    3. Low frequency noise
    4. Disrupts view
    5. Dangerous if they fail or they throw snow, dangerous to birds
    6. Installation on a closeby site without sufficent disclosure to current residents
    7. Marginal profit potential (or even a complete scam as the farmer claims)

    --

    If you exclude #7 for a moment, it seems probable to me
    that the remaining issues can negatively affect one's
    health or quality of life. For example, if I lived in a house
    that suffered from the flicker problem, I know that would
    drive me nuts. Same goes for the noise. It would be
    especially maddening if I picked a home site because of
    its view and solitude, and then someone just plopped
    one of these down without any consideration of the
    effect on the existing homeowners.

    It seems to me that the lesson is: don't put these near
    where people live. The current minimum buffer zone seems
    to be 1000 feet, which is absurdly close.

    Regarding #7, I think the farmer's claim that there was a
    motor in each wind turbine to give the illusion of it working
    is patently false. All he has to do is climb up in one to
    see for himself (or get a news reporter to do that).

    However, his overall point of whether they made sense
    economically has some claim to validity. A 1.5MW
    industrial wind turbine will generate approximately
    $30K of power per year. It if cost, say, $1M to build it,
    then that's on the order of a 30-year payback. That's
    not counting maintenance costs, nor Federal or state
    funding that the operator might have been able to
    secure. Thus, the business case if measured only in
    direct dollars of profit and cost is marginal (the
    same can be said for my solar panels).

    I've always felt that harnessing wind made sense.
    It's now clear to me that putting them in the wrong
    places (especially, in close proximity to residences)
    makes no sense.

    John
  • russruss Solar Expert Posts: 593
    Re: Wind Turbine in NE Ohio ?

    The small wind turbines can be too loud such as SWWP operating at over 1100 RPM - how much noise do the large commercial types make as they rotate quite slowly? Not much

    Dangerous to birds? The small unit that rotate fast (like the SWWP) would be but again the large commercial units moving so slowly - ıt would take a dumb bird to run into it.

    The claim about the motor turning the turbine is probably based on a site in Japan where some smaller fancy types were actually powered by motors so they didn't look stupid. I forget the type but it was an architecturally attractive if useless unit. (Honeywell concept)

    Disrupts the view? Sounds like Teddy Kennedy - I guess this fellow wants to be Teddy's equivalent! If they threw in that it upset the desert tortise they could rope in Feinstein at the same time.

    As far as the commercial side - I am not sure where the 30,000$ per year for a 1.5 mW turbine comes from. They must assuming extremely low output - a very poor site that should have never been built.

    To calculate - actual output in kW(? this is the wild card) * hours (8760) * capacity factor (between 25 % 35% for decent to good commercial sites ) * kW sales price (say 10 cents)

    say 500 kW average output 500*8760*.25*0.10 = 109,500$ per year -poor wind

    say 1000 kW average output 1000*8760*,25*0.10 - 219,000$ per year

    My complaint about wind is the lack of storage and difficulty with the variability.

    I believe the 'farmer' was like someone we all know one of who likes to flap his jaws with out stopping to consider what he is saying and without the knowledge to know if what he is rehashing makes sense or not.

    Usually the more passionate someone is on a topic the more BS there is involved.

    You tube is one of the more useless things around to me. It allowed this poor fellow to get his nonsense message out to the world!
  • jcgee88jcgee88 Solar Expert Posts: 154 ✭✭
    Re: Wind Turbine in NE Ohio ?
    russ wrote: »
    The small wind turbines can be too loud such as SWWP operating at over 1100 RPM - how much noise do the large commercial types make as they rotate quite slowly? Not much

    First, I am not saying that all those issues are ones that I
    subscribe to. I was just summarizing what seemed like the major
    concerns from among the videos I watched.

    The tips rotate at >100 mph. It's an optical illusion that
    they rotate slowly...any very large object that moves looks
    like it is going slow. Watch a 747 take off sometime, it
    looks like it is crawling, even though it is going 200 mph.
    Anyways, there are multiple videos that show the noise
    from both small and large wind turbines. I won't judge
    as to whether this noise is disturbing to you, but obviously,
    it was to the people who happened to live close to the
    turbines.

    russ wrote: »
    Dangerous to birds? The small unit that rotate fast (like the SWWP) would be but again the large commercial units moving so slowly - ıt would take a dumb bird to run into it.


    There are multiple videos which show the bird kill: from picking
    up dead bats (thought to be caused by the pressure differential)
    to actually hitting a large bird. Again, I am not judging whether
    the number killed justifies abandoning this technology, in fact,
    it's a given that practically anything we do will kill a bird or two.
    Dave Winfield killed one with a baseball throw! So, it's not
    credible to claim none, or only dumb ones, will die from wind
    turbines.

    russ wrote: »
    Disrupts the view? Sounds like Teddy Kennedy - I guess this fellow wants to be Teddy's equivalent! If they threw in that it upset the desert tortise they could rope in Feinstein at the same time.

    This is subjective, granted, unless one gets built in your back yard.

    russ wrote: »
    As far as the commercial side - I am not sure where the 30,000$ per year for a 1.5 mW turbine comes from. They must assuming extremely low output - a very poor site that should have never been built.


    You are right on this, I missplaced a decimal point. Here's my revised
    yield calculation based on the source I originally consulted:

    Every wind turbine has a range of wind speeds, typically 30 to 55 mph, in which it will produce at its rated, or maximum, capacity. At slower wind speeds, however, the production falls off dramatically. If the wind speed decreases by half, power production decreases by a factor of eight. On average, therefore, wind turbines do not generate near their capacity. Industry estimates project an annual output of 30-40%, but real-world experience shows that annual outputs of 15-30% of capacity are more typical.

    With a 25% capacity factor, a 1.5-MW turbine would produce

    1.5 MW × 365 days × 24 hours × 25% = 3,285 MWh = 3,285,000 kWh


    --

    Multiply that by $.10/kwh, yields $328,500/year, not $30K.
    My mistake! Although for simplicity in my original payback
    calculation, I also used a low end figure for capital cost, and
    I ignored ongoing costs for landowner royalty (the farmer said
    that was $40K/year), maintenance, insurance, etc.

    --

    Anyways, my point is that if you site these away from
    residences, almost all of the objections become moot.
    If you put them too close to people, there will be complaints,
    and some of these will be valid.

    John
  • BilljustBillBilljustBill Solar Expert Posts: 212 ✭✭✭
    Re: Wind Turbine in NE Ohio ?
    jcgee88 wrote: »
    Bill,
    ........I've always felt that harnessing wind made sense.
    It's now clear to me that putting them in the wrong
    places (especially, in close proximity to residences)
    makes no sense.

    John

    It appears you can see there are some things that have/will be seen as fact in the days and decades ahead. It will be exactly like the tobacco industry knew and hid, and very likely like the issues of cell phones/cancer and microwaves/dead bees. These million dollar windmills will be shown to cause health issues, not to mention the stress and health issues caused from dealing with their deceptive practices I seen first hand.

    Well said, John.

    Bill
    Bill
  • russruss Solar Expert Posts: 593
    Re: Wind Turbine in NE Ohio ?

    @jcgee88 - Agreed 100%

    The average farm income per acre in Ohio - year 2008 was 630$ (as per the USDA). I think someone is smoking something when they come up with the very high lease rates - this is another of the wild stories I have seen before.

    @ BilljustBill - If you believe all the stories on the net then a person certainly has no need for life insurance - the world is ending in a year or two for sure.

    If you believe the extreme version (from both ends of the spectrum) of the same stories spewed out by the loonies then the year or two is highly optimistic.

    I consider it to be more of the 'same old - same old'.

    Russ
  • BilljustBillBilljustBill Solar Expert Posts: 212 ✭✭✭
    Re: Wind Turbine in NE Ohio ?
    russ wrote: »
    The small wind turbines can be too loud such as SWWP operating at over 1100 RPM - how much noise do the large commercial types make as they rotate quite slowly? Not much

    Dangerous to birds? The small unit that rotate fast (like the SWWP) would be but again the large commercial units moving so slowly - ıt would take a dumb bird to run into it.

    [email protected] BilljustBill - If you believe all the stories on the net then a person certainly has no need for life insurance - the world is ending in a year or two for sure.

    If you believe the extreme version (from both ends of the spectrum) of the same stories spewed out by the loonies then the year or two is highly optimistic.

    I consider it to be more of the 'same old - same old'.

    Russ




    Hey there Russ,

    Just like the current problems with the economy and the polar extremes of what's coming, the real facts about large wind turbines causing health and mental problems falls somewhere between both extreme points of view. But time will tell...

    As far as bird strikes not being an issue with the big turbines... well, if it's a fact that it can happen, then there also exists the unknown facts hidden because of piles of money... and like the intent of the above paragraph, keep in mind that somewhere between extremes found on the Internet, is the real answer.....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=na6HxKQQsAM

    One needs to keep an open mind, but not so open that a person's brain falls out,
    Bill
  • solarvicsolarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭
    Re: Wind Turbine in NE Ohio ?

    Billjust Bill It is a fact that most people use electric and it has to come from somewhere. Our country getting into some alternitive energy,s help to create jobs. I think the foundry I retired from last may would have closed down if they wouldn,t have become a suplyer of castings to the wind turbine industry. Reports of bird kills is blown all out of proportion. There is a minute amount of birds killed by wind turbines compared to other causes. I bet there are lots more turkey vultures killed on the road trying to eat road kill than turbines would ever kill. Birds get killed by planes, trains, trucks, automobiles, hunters, flying into buildings, sky scrapers and the like and anything else that moves or is stationary.
    Everyonet likes using electric but will complain about whatever generating method that is used. They all have some kind of polution we all have to deal with.
    My brother works at a chese plant that had a bad odor caused by whey and methane gas that was emited from it and had complaints from neighbors. So he put in a treatment plant that takes all the solids out of the whey and all that is left is water. The solids makes good fertilizer he sells to a farmer that raises switchgrass to make biodiesel with. He bought a big generator that burns all the methane gas and can generate 2 megawatts. I think it is enough electric for his cheese factory and they feed power to the grid. So people that complained about the smell before now complain that he could cause a powersurge. So you just can,t please everyone. People complain about coalfired power plants where most of thier power is made, but that creates jobs for coal miners and we have hundreds of years of coal supplys. Nucular can supply power for us but there are complaints about polution from them too. Natural gas can make electric too but it even makes some polution and people complain about transmission lines and gas drilling. Water power kills fish and habitat and a couple of dams have been drained because of that. Someone is trying to build a generating plant that burns tires and some of the local natives are trying to stop that also. :Dsolarvic:D
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,311 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Wind Turbine in NE Ohio ?

    solarvic,
    i couldn't agree with you more on the subject of birds and turbines. they do run into everything and i've even stopped putting old bread out in my front yard because the dummies flew into the path of oncoming cars and it was my goal to let them eat, not do kamikazi and get killed.

    that was an interesting story and kudos to that guy who did all of that noting that there are plenty of people out there that complain just to hear themselves complain, but i won't go so far as to say they are always wrong as those same complainers got the coal fired generating plants to clean up their act and the nuclear industry to try and be more careful rather than taking unnecessary chances and corner cutting just watching their bottom lines instead of safety. i can't call myself an expert in these areas, but i have had first hand experience in both coal and nuclear to know it happens and they can handle things wrongly or not in the public's best interest at times.

    it's all akin to a kid that just keeps pushing to see how far a kid can go in getting away with something as it seems some adults don't grow out of that stage possibly on both sides of these issues and that's where i agree with you that there is a middle to it, but it doesn't always mean that one needs to automatically compromise on any complaint and that's where we may differ if that's what you implied.
  • russruss Solar Expert Posts: 593
    Re: Wind Turbine in NE Ohio ?

    Contrary to what Bill thinks, I am not green and I am not against green.

    I am for what makes sense and works - we do need power. Shouldn't be any dirtier than it has to be and the cost should be not much above the present cost.

    I have read the comparison between the number of birds killed by wind turbines, cars, cats and home windows. The amount killed by turbines is to small to be seen when compared to the other killers.

    I do not call a you tube presentation anything other than a cartoon. Anyone can make up anything for you tube.

    I read land rents for turbines that range from the low you mentioned to 10,000$ per year. The 10,000$ is obvious BS - there is not that kind money in farming. Never ask a farmer what his crop yields were or how much he made! I grew up on a farm and remember the lines well.

    There are quacks that will certify anything that is difficult to disprove. Aches and pains along with psychological problems are not easy to disprove. Remeber Brutland of the UN who made people turn off cell phones when entering her office. Claimed it gave her a headache. I would have left mine on in silent mode just to see if it really did and it would not have.

    Russ
  • NEOHNEOH Solar Expert Posts: 74 ✭✭
    Re: Wind Turbine in NE Ohio ?

    I drove past my neighbors 1 year old SWWP SkyStream 3.7 this morning. Slight problem, the entire nacelle and rotor have been removed from atop the monople! I will see how long it takes to get it repaired under warranty. Now, what is going to happen when the 5 year warranty has expired and the payback was originally calculated out to be only 15 years? Will my neighbor really pay thousands of dollars to have a crane come out, lower the nacelle, have the local SWWP dealer repair it and then have a crane raise it back up? So, then the 15 year payback will get pushed out to a 20 year paypack. A 15 year payback is unreasonable, a 20 year payback is laughable, even borderline irrational.

    How many 20 year old cars do you see on the road? And we wash them, we wax them, we store them in garages, we change the oil every 6 months, etc, etc. The Wind Turbine will be neglected up on top of the 40' Tower exposed to all kinds of weather just so the Homeowner can BREAK-EVEN (maybe) on their electric bill savings in 20 years? And the taxpayer gets what for their over 50% investment?

    So, now my neighbor with the broken Wind Turbine REQUIRES our Energy company to supply him with 100% of his power needs, all day, everyday. Also, when the Wind does not blow, my neighbor REQUIRES that the Energy Company to produce 100% of his energy needs. My local energy company just runs LESS efficiently when the wind blows while some of it's wind customers temporarily use less electricity. So, how does this unreliable Wind Turbine help the taxpayers, who funded more than 50% of that Wind Turbine, SAVE any money?

    Does anybody think that we can stop building new Electric Power Plants because we have installed these Residential Wind Turbines? No we cannot because every day that the wind stops blowing every one of those Wind Turbine owners will REQUIRE the Electric Company to supply them with 100% of their power needs. NOW! So, our Electric company must be ready, at a moments notice, to supply 100% of the Wind Turbines owners electric power the instant the wind stops blowing or risk a brown-out or rolling black-out. This NOT a good thing. And the more Wind Turbines installed the LESS efficient my Electric Company runs. Load Management is already a very complicated mix of varing fueled power plants. And, now for this extra Load Management burden on the Power Company, they will get LESS revenue, run less efficiently and the tax payers must pay 50% or more of the Turbine install price.

    Has anybody thought about what we are really accomplishing here?
    Has our government rebate and tax policies gone insane ?

    If the Homeowner cannot justify a Residential Wind Turbine in 10 years or less then they should not install one.

    I predict in 5 years, after the warranty has elapsed, that one by one these Residential Wind Turbines will be shut down. The taxpayer money will have been wasted on this Residential Wind Turbine experiment. The vast majority of the Residential Wind Turbine customers will not spend more of their OWN money to repair their Wind Turbine and they will return the AC Grid.

    Experiment over.

    I am not against Residential Wind Turbines. If you can afford one then by all means install it and maintain it. Good Luck, to you. But don't force me to finance over 50% of your investment because you cannot cost justify the initial expense (let alone the 15 - 20 year up keep costs) for an experiment that is doomed for failure.
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,311 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Wind Turbine in NE Ohio ?

    wind power is a good thing if you find one built well enough and with the advances in controllers from midnite solar you could see better outputs and efficiencies from some of them. from what i understand, a well known wind company is now going to come out with a 48v turbine using a classic (or is it clipper?) controller. maintenance is a factor many overlook and swwp is pretty bad in this area.

    as to taxes for rebates, now we generally frown upon getting too far into this kind of stuff because that involves politics and this is not the place to discuss politics. i can agree to a point that none of us likes paying taxes, but i have to say that even if they stop giving out rebates that you will not see a reduction in the taxes you pay as it'll just line somebody else's pockets.

    that being said, this discussion into this political aspect of it should be dropped.
«1
Sign In or Register to comment.