Low Power major appliances

mike95490 · December 2010

Well, I'm about to pull the chain on building, and need to filter the appliances for low idle power - wife won't stand for a switched outlet strip for the washer/dryer and all the other stuff that eats idle watts in an off grid house.

ovens with spark or pilot ignition, not 95W glo-bar ignitor

manual sparker on gas range, not sensor that runs 24/7 to see if the gas is flowing and the burner lit

standing pilot water heater

And I'm sure I'm missing something else critical, but feel free to chime in with low power suggestions.

Mike

niel · December 2010

Re: Low Power major appliances

there's always the possibility of switched outlets. it's an old idea that works for those willing to pull the switch. odds are she'll leave the switch in the on position anyway like mine does. i did solve her leaving one of the basement lights on all of the time by making it one of those with infrared detection in it. once in a while it sticks in the on position for some odd reason, but i shut it down for a day or so and dust it off and it works again.

Ralph Day · December 2010

Re: Low Power major appliances

Mike,
For best price and avaliablility (at least in Canada) the Premier Peerless Ranges are great! They have a spark/pilot for the oven and spark igniters for the stovetop burners. Happy as a clam with ours.

Kenmore used to make a non-electronic display front loader washer (we have one) that has click and clunk controls, no push buttons or displays. It might be hard to find anything like that nowadays (last shopped for these in 2003).

My Takagi Jr water heater only uses a couple of watts in standby mode, maybe 40 when firing. We put ours on a timer so it's not in standby overnight. Neil's comments about switched outlets is great..when you're in new consttruction mode.

Best wishes on your building project (we expect a running blog of course):roll:

Ralph

Dave Angelini · December 2010

Re: Low Power major appliances

And Premier is being forced to eliminate the mercury in their oven thermostat and will not make these models very soon. They have been telling me that an"engineer" is working on a battery version for offgrid. I would take a look at their three professional models all around a grand. I have been telling friends also that their cheaper models are nice for a garage or covered outdoor application.

Ralph you may want to buy a spare mercury switch. You can use it to build a small tactical nuke to keep warm up there...:roll:

Ralph Day · December 2010

Re: Low Power major appliances

Thanks Dave,
So a replacement oven thermostat would be a good investment for the future?

Ralph

Dave Angelini · December 2010

Re: Low Power major appliances

The part Ralph or just buy a spare range. It my sound crazy but one half of my brain is paranoid about having spares. It is probably from taking a sailboat off the map, or chart.

The low end model Premier ranges can be had for $350 US and it looks to me that all the parts except the mechanicals are identical. Certainly the thermostat, the electronic black box and the burner sparkers on my two models.

In the summer we cook in the garage sometimes to keep the heat out of the house and the oposite to heat the garage in winter. I have some folks up your way that are just getting the structure water tight and the premier is heating the place, um can't say that here, let's say they are cooking alot of Turkey.

It will be interesting to see what the premier comes up with for offgrid? In my mind a modern gas range is the most non-green, beyond stupid, moronic appliance. I don't hold hope for them as I have been trying to get them to build one with a ceramic top (the best for easy clean) and they give me answers like "the union won't allocate a new design" WTF does that mean?

Mike, if you get a energy star front loader you will not have phantoms. The Frigidaires even work in search mode. Most of all the failures I have seen from any aplliance failures were from generators or msw inverters. You are lucky that you live where that is not the only way to make it thru winter.

Kamala · December 2010

Re: Low Power major appliances

Ralph Day wrote: »

... Kenmore used to make a non-electronic display front loader washer (we have one) that has click and clunk controls, no push buttons or displays. It might be hard to find anything like that nowadays (last shopped for these in 2003)....

While recently shopping for a new washer/dryer my wife was disappointed to learn that almost all new units had electronic controls/displays. The salesman suggested Speed Queen. It has the "clink & clunk" controls. He claimed that they are used by the military and are often air dropped. Hmmm. Anyway, the wife is very pleased.

K

mr.radon · December 2010

Re: Low Power major appliances

I installed a "on demand" hot water heater that requires 120VAC, but very little energy is used. Saved tons of $$$ in natural gas since I installed it.

JESSICA · December 2010

Re: Low Power major appliances

mr.radon wrote: »

I installed a "on demand" hot water heater that requires 120VAC, but very little energy is used. Saved tons of $$$ in natural gas since I installed it.

Brand and model? Please.

mr.radon · December 2010

Re: Low Power major appliances

Bosch 2400ES-NG

I had to install a new 1" gas line from the gas meter to the unit because at full output the flow rate of gas in the 3/4" line had to high of a pressure drop. (you have to measure the pressure at full flow) It took over two weeks to install and get the permits signed off. Very difficult DIY project. Not easy. The exhaust was also PITA as I had to rip out the old duct and install a new double wall duct. The easy part was running a branch circuit for a 120VAC outlet.
I have a remote so I can change the water temp on the fly when washing white's in the laundry room.
Since I don't use my furnace I have a real good idea on before and after gas consumption. It dropped about 60%. (the only other gas appliance is the stove)
Best part is I never run out of hot water.

FL SUN · December 2010

Re: Low Power major appliances

mr.radon wrote: »

I had to install a new 1" gas line from the gas meter to the unit because at full output the flow rate of gas in the 3/4" line had to high of a pressure drop. (you have to measure the pressure at full flow) It took over two weeks to install and get the permits signed off. Very difficult DIY project. Not easy.

Did you consider changing to a 2 psi system before doing all that work? New meter, new regulators at each appliance and done!

waynefromnscanada · December 2010

Re: Low Power major appliances

Ralph Day wrote: »

Mike,
Kenmore used to make a non-electronic display front loader washer (we have one) that has click and clunk controls, no push buttons or displays. It might be hard to find anything like that nowadays (last shopped for these in 2003).
Ralph

http://www.sears.ca/catalog/appliances-washers/1700034?extid=102309_ca_1search_2EN_3gogl_4App_5App-Lau_6Washer-Sears&gclid=COec0Lv056UCFdLLKgodzkgg2g
and
http://www.sears.ca/product/kenmore-md-31-cu-ft-frontload-washer/626-000109140-C48122
Not joking, I've been recently hearing lots of horror stories about "power surge" problems from so many people, especially with high-end ranges and pallet stoves. At least the manufactures are blaming the problems on power surges. One would think that being so-called high-end products, they would have surge protection built in if their designs are so poor in that regard.

mr.radon · December 2010

Re: Low Power major appliances

FL SUN wrote: »

Did you consider changing to a 2 psi system before doing all that work? New meter, new regulators at each appliance and done!

Nope, followed the installation guide and county rules. Borrowed a dp meter which told me I needed 1" pipe.
Don't know about 2psi system, will do some research.

.

mike95490 · December 2010

Re: Low Power major appliances

thanks all, this is leading to some good ideas for me to use.

Mike

solarvic · December 2010

Re: Low Power major appliances

waynefromnscanada wrote: »

http://www.sears.ca/catalog/appliances-washers/1700034?extid=102309_ca_1search_2EN_3gogl_4App_5App-Lau_6Washer-Sears&gclid=COec0Lv056UCFdLLKgodzkgg2g
and
http://www.sears.ca/product/kenmore-md-31-cu-ft-frontload-washer/626-000109140-C48122
Not joking, I've been recently hearing lots of horror stories about "power surge" problems from so many people, especially with high-end ranges and pallet stoves. At least the manufactures are blaming the problems on power surges. One would think that being so-called high-end products, they would have surge protection built in if their designs are so poor in that regard.

Sears in Canada must charge a lot more for thier products and have less of a selection. I didn,t see the Ge hybred waterheater Listed that I bought in the usa. I have the LG washer and gas dryer. My Kollowatt meter said the washer used .14kw to do 1 load and the gas dryer used .16kw to dry 1 load of clothes. If I use the sanitary cycle the washer uses 1.05 kw for a load. It has its own heater on the washer that heats the water to 164 degree for that cycle. I have them both plugged into an old satelite surge protector I had. I already lost a refrigerator, and phone from a power surge. It was a Ge refrigerator and had the computer powerboard. I trplaced it with a sears energystar model made by whirlpool that doesn,t have the computer board. :Dsolarvic:D

waynefromnscanada · December 2010

Re: Low Power major appliances

solarvic wrote: »

Sears in Canada must charge a lot more for their products and have less of a selection. :Dsolarvic:D

Not just Sears. Even many products made in Canada are cheaper for us to import from the US, than to buy here in Canada where they are made! My Uncle ran into the same thing with Canadian made Farm machinery, thousands of dollars cheaper for him to purchase from England, after it was shipped from Canada, then have it shipped back home from England! Are Canadians being screwed by government? Noooooo, surely that would never happen~ lol.

Ralph Day · December 2010

Re: Low Power major appliances

waynefromnscanada wrote: »

Not just Sears. Even many products made in Canada are cheaper for us to import from the US, than to buy here in Canada where they are made!

Wayne and all, that argument has been around (and entirely valid) for over a century. The western provinces (and as territories before that) got screwed for manufactured goods, read farm equipment. The tariffs imposed by the federal government on US imports were crippling...forcing the western provinces to buy Ontario and Quebec manufactured goods has always been the Canadian way.

And when you shop on line for appliances you will have 30-40 models to select from, but you'll find that perhaps 3 models are available in Canada. Apparently our CSA and UL certifications are more strict and cost more to obtain resulting in fewer models available for Canadian consumers. Fewer but safer?

Ralph

waynefromnscanada · December 2010

Re: Low Power major appliances

Ralph Day wrote: »

Wayne and all, that argument has been around (and entirely valid) for over a century. The western provinces (and as territories before that) got screwed for manufactured goods, read farm equipment.Ralph

Yes, in my uncles case, it was a big farm tractor. It was made in Canada, then shipped overseas to the UK, from where it was thousands of dollars cheaper for him to purchase, including the fact that he had to have it shipped back across the Atlantic Ocean to Canada where it was made in the first place. I'm sure people in other parts of the world would find this incredible. Well guess what - - - so do we! Yet it remains standard practice. WHO is pocketing the extra money from products made in Canada and sold in Canada, to Canadians? GIRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

sub3marathonman · March 2011

Re: Low Power major appliances

waynefromnscanada wrote: »

Not just Sears. Even many products made in Canada are cheaper for us to import from the US, than to buy here in Canada where they are made! My Uncle ran into the same thing with Canadian made Farm machinery, thousands of dollars cheaper for him to purchase from England, after it was shipped from Canada, then have it shipped back home from England! Are Canadians being screwed by government? Noooooo, surely that would never happen~ lol.

I just ran across this, from a guy in England. "The switch kept failing so I bought a Cibi (MES DEA) 70/6E purpose-designed pump which works beautifully, practically silent and is simplicity itself to fit. The downside is the price. I was quoted £320 from CIBI (UK) and £450 from another UK source but in the end bought it from the US, delivered and VAT/duty paid for £240. From Switzerland to the US and back again and at half the price I can buy it for here in the EU -Bonkers!"

chevenstein · March 2011

Re: Low Power major appliances

I'm off grid with a Peerless Premier spark ignition range (pity on the mercury switch thing), Diamond LP fridge (its fuel consumption is almost unnoticeable compared to the water heater, dryer, and stove), Takagi TK Jr water heater, and wicked expensive but mechanical and simple to fix Staber washer and dryer. The dryer was a big disappointment: it's a rebadged Whirlpool commercial model (which is fine, it's a good, well made dryer) but it has an HSI ignitor that draws FOUR HUNDRED WATTS. The KillAWatt measures about three quarters of a kW to dry two loads of laundry (the dryer is gigantic, so it seems wasteful to dry only one load at a time).

All of the above are fine, our low power days see the house use 300 to 500 Wh, most of that lighting and computers. The problem was the dishwasher. Our training battery bank (220Ah) was too small to start the very large deep well pump (400' well) and also keep the AC voltage high enough to keep the dishwasher from rebooting and having to be restarted. That was profoundly irritating, as I liked the dishwasher's performance but could not tolerate this behavior. I ended up cannibalizing an older dishwasher of the same make for its mechanical controls and converted my unit. Now it get clean dishes and it doesn't shut off mid cycle. We later swapped the training batteries for a 440Ah bank and the voltage dips are much less pronounced when the well pump starts.

Low Power major appliances

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