Thin Film solar panels

System · October 2010

Good day for all
I live in Puerto Rico and i have a farm with 1 house that not have any tipe of electric power and water service . This farm have a superficial well with a
300 gal concrete tank above well. My plan consist for install a off grit solar power sistem in the house and solar power water pump sistem in the well.The sistem for the house consist of 800 to 1000 watt solar power panels x hour a Flexcharge 60 Outback charge controller that feed the solar power, 12 Golf car 6VDC batterys and
a 3000-24 VDC Sun-SL-3024 ( Sun Electronics) inverter with charger ,the House have 8 cf light,1-LCD 32"TV,1 16 cf refrigerator and is for weekend use only.The plan for water solar pump sistem consist of this; For the well 1/2 HP DC motor item #
10-2428 model-DC0505A ( Surplus center), 5.3 Amps a 90 VDC= 477 watts coupling
with pedestal centrifugal pump. This pump is for solar direct power panel use without batterys that transport the water from the 300 gal well tank to a 600 gal plastic tank in the house ,the distance of the 2 tanks is about 250 to 300' feets
For pressure water sistem of the house i plan to use a Jabsco Par Max Ultra Wash Down 24VDC item # 52700-0094 have 7GPM and 80 PSI for direct conection to solar power battery house bank
I Have a Question about the best solar panels for the installation ???

For the House; What is the best panel for the House aplication ???
1-Thin film like Sun-DA100-A1B ( Sun Electronics $1.20x watts)
2-Monocristaline
3-Policristaline

For the pump for direct solar power sistem without batterys and controllers
What is the best panel for this aplication with Surplus center DC motor ???
1- 6 panels -Thin film Sun-DA100-A1B
2-Monocristaline type panels
3-Policristaline

Chespi ( I need the answer prompt)

mike95490 · October 2010

Re: Thin Film solar panels

As long as this is an all-new system, create a 48VDC battery with 48V inverter (16 batteries, 2 banks of 8, in parallel). This will handle the water pump much easier.
Plan on the pump consuming 1,000W, as that is what my 240V 1/2 pump consumes. Will you be pumping from the well, into the tank, and then have the tank gravity feed the house? Or does the pump provide the water pressure to run the water?
For the loads you list, 1,000 w of PV may be too little to keep the batteries charged.

jeffkruse · October 2010

Re: Thin Film solar panels

Welcome to the board. I to live in PR and installed my system last year. I received 75% in tax credits. This year is 50% in tax credits. Next year may be different (60%?). In order to get the tax credits my equipment needed to be UL approved with a specific warranty. The equipment needed to be on the approved list. You can also submit equipment to be added to the list if it meets certain requirements.

Do some research on the tax credits and you can save (in taxes) 50% of the cost right now.

Also, don’t overestimate (because of clouds) the amount of sun you get unless your system will be in the South West of PR.

BB. · October 2010

Re: Thin Film solar panels

Regarding mono vs poly crystalline panels--Purchase on $$/watt unless you have little area for solar panels (i.e., restricted roof space).

Thin film... Will be around 2x the area of the crystalline panels for the same power output (Thin Film is less efficient at capturing sunlight).

I am not sure of the 10-20 year life of thin film (I am not in the business)--but if your needs are shorter term and they offer you a big break on the $$/Watt pricing--It would be more difficult to ignore (remember, you may need more solar mounts and wiring for the same power ratings--so there are some extra costs with Thin Film).

-Bill

System2 · October 2010

Re: Thin Film solar panels

Thank for the answers
But in this moment i not shure what is the best choice of the 3 type of panels ( The monocristaline is the best for charge batterys in off grit aplications but the price is hight), for the choice i close my eye and and put my finger in 1 off the 3 opcion and purchase the choice of my finger for the house aplication

In the water pumping i need more information

The 2 tanks and the house is in grounds and the pluvial sistem is for utility
water in the house and irrigation for daily use about 3 hour, this is the reason for what is the solar power for the well superficial centrifugal pump is without batterys
The motor pump comsume about 477 watts (90VDC-5.3 Amps or 24VDC 19.80 Amps) but i planing to use 600 watts of solar power for energise the motor ( The pressure pump that i plan to atached in the House tank is for use with the solar power battery bank sistem for the house)

The solar power for the well motor pump is direct power without solar booster or pump crontrollers for reduce the cost

But my question is - The Thin Film panels is capable to energise this tipe of motors or i need a monocristaline

Chespi

mike95490 · October 2010

Re: Thin Film solar panels

Thin film panels tend to degrade more rapidly than poly or mono panels. If you want this to function 10 + years, I'd use poly or mono panels, not thin film.

BB. · October 2010

Re: Thin Film solar panels

Chespi wrote: »

Thank for the answers
But in this moment i not sure what is the best choice of the 3 type of panels ( The mono-crystalline is the best for charge batteries in off grit applications but the price is right), for the choice i close my eye and and put my finger in 1 off the 3 option and purchase the choice of my finger for the house application

There are many different things to look at when buying panels. Mono/Poly/Thin Film is just part of it...

Mono and Poly crystalline panels are almost identical in every way--Except that Mono Crystalline panels are a little bit smaller than Poly Crystalline panels (Mono Crystalline panels are a little bit more efficient).

If you are not limited by roof space for how many panels you can fit--You can pick either Mono or Poly panels and they will both work exactly the same for your application (pick based on the best price and service from your dealer).

For Thin Film--They sort of function just like Mono and Poly crystalline panels. Except for several major differences. Thin Film (at least those for sale today) will be 2x the area of Mono/Poly panels (you will need a 10'x20' roof space instead of 10'x10' roof space -- Made up numbers).

The other issue with Thin Film is that they tend to lose 10-20% of their power in the first 6 mouths due to "fading" in sunlight. So, they actually produce more power than their rating when first installed.

Lastly, personally, I am not convinced Thin Film will last as long as Mono/Poly crystalline panels (perhaps 1/2 the life?). Again--someone else with more knowledge than I can better answer that question.

For any panel, you need to know the Voc (voltage open circuit), Vmp (voltage maximum power), Isc (current short circuit), and Imp (current maximum power).

If you have three panels (Mono/Poly/Thin Film) each with Vmp = 35 volts and Imp = 6.0 amps--All three panels will perform about the same in your application (differences noted above).

In the water pumping i need more information

The 2 tanks and the house is in grounds and the pluvial sistem [rainfall collection system?] is for utility water in the house and irrigation for daily use about 3 hour, this is the reason for what is the solar power for the well superficial [surface?] centrifugal pump is without batteries

If I understand your question correctly--You are collecting rainfall? Will the solar powered pump be required to run during the rain (cloudy weather), or are you pumping water up hill from a small dam down below)? Solar panels do not work very well at all in cloudy weather.

The motor pump consumes about 477 watts (90VDC-5.3 Amps or 24VDC 19.80 Amps) but i planing to use 600 watts of solar power for energize the motor ( The pressure pump that i plan to attached in the House tank is for use with the solar power battery bank system for the house)

Sounds good.

The solar power for the well motor pump is direct power without solar booster or pump controllers for reduce the cost

Very good idea--If you can avoid batteries / charge controllers in your system (only pump when the sun is shining)--It will cost much less for the parts and no battery replacement costs over time.

But my question is - The Thin Film panels is capable to energize this type of motors or i need a mono-crystalline

If:

You have the area for Thin Film panels (2x the area of crystalline panels)
You pick the correct Voc, Vmp, Imp for your pump (series / parallel connected panels)
Thin Film panels (plus their mounts/wiring) should cost you less than Mono/Poly panels of the same watt rating.
You are happy with the service and warranty for the Thin Film Panels

Solar panels are changing models every week... Many times, you design a system with one brand/part number and when you go to buy them a month or two later, they are no longer in stock... So, you may have to change what you buy to fit what your dealer has in stock at the time you place the order.

-Bill

System2 · October 2010

Re: Thin Film solar panels

Now i have better idea what is the best choice

And this is the Solar Electric Power Sistem i purchase
in the next week
**For the House**
1- 8 SunA-210-fa3 ( 210 Policristaline Solar Panel made by Evergreen for Sun
Electronics)
2- Controller- Outback-EM-60
3- 24 Golf Car acid Batterys ( Open Lid)
4- Inverter- Sun-SL-3024- ( By Sun Electronics )
5-Pressure pump for the pluvial sistem of the house- Par Max # 52700-0094
**For Well pump sistem**
1- 6-Sun-DA105-A1B ( Thin Film 105 watts panel by Sun Electronics)
2- 90VDC 1/2 Motor with centrifugal pedestal pump

Thank for the commentary , counset and the answers

Chespi

AntronX · October 2010

Re: Thin Film solar panels

Chespi wrote: »

**For Well pump sistem**
1- 6-Sun-DA105-A1B ( Thin Film 105 watts panel by Sun Electronics)
2- 90VDC 1/2 Motor with centrifugal pedestal pump

I think this is bad idea. Build one system and pump water using excess energy when your main battery is full. Did you test your 90Vdc motor? Can it pump water between 30 - 75V? Connect 6 (12V) batteries in series to get 72Vdc to test if the pump actually works good. Then remove one battery, then another. Find a limit when motor no longer pumps water. How deep is the well? There may be a hazy day with not enough sun to lift a column of water to the surface. Your motor will spin, but not fast enough for any water to be delivered. But if you had battery storage, you could translate long term low power from solar panels into short term high power for your well pump and at least get some water than none.

BB. · October 2010

Re: Thin Film solar panels

Chespi,

Do you have an installer that will be mounting/wiring your system for you? And who is also double checking your setup that everything will be working together?

Off-Grid solar is fairly complex to get everything configured and running if this is your first time without somebody helping you at your home.

Chespi wrote: »

1- 8 SunA-210-fa3 ( 210 Policristaline Solar Panel made by Evergreen for Sun Electronics)

Nice set of panels= 8x210 watt = 1,680 watts of solar panels

2- Controller- Outback-EM-60

You could probably do pretty well with one FM-60 controller (check manual) and your 1,680 watt array. It is a close call.

3- 24 Golf Car acid Batterys ( Open Lid)

I do not really like a whole bunch of "small" 6 volt batteries tied together in parallel... That is 6 parallel strings of batteries. Each string should have its own fuse.

With so many parallel batteries, it is difficult to get the batteries to properly share current (each string taking ~1/6 of the load/charging current). Review this website for suggestions on how to properly wire a battery bank.

Smart Gauge battery parallel wiring

Also, that is a lot of battery cells to check for water level/charge level in.

If you have the option, I would suggest looking for larger batteries (higher Amp*Hour Ratings) so you can get 3 or fewer parallel strings.

Also, keep in mind how you will move the batteries at your home (crane, truck, etc.).

If this batteries are 6 volt @ 220 AH rated -- Then for a 24 volt battery bank and 24x 6volt batteries, you should have 6 parallel strings for 6x220AH=1,320AH rated capacity.

Roughly, your charging capacity will be:

1,680 watts * 0.77 system derating * 1/(6x220 AH * 29 volts charging) = 0.034 = 3.4% charging ratio from solar panels

That is really not enough solar panels for your battery bank... The rough rule-of-thumb for charging a battery bank is 5-13% of the bank's 20 Hour capacity rating. For your bank, roughly:

1,320 AH * 0.05 = 66 amps minimum
1,320 AH * 0.05 =171.6 amps maximum
1,680 watts of solar panels * 0.77 derating * 29 volts charging = 44.6 amps from solar panels

So, ideally, you either need more solar panels, less battery bank, and/or plan on using a generator to keep the battery bank properly charged.

Do you have a good idea of how much power (Amp*Hours or Watt*Hours) you will need from your system?

-Bill

System2 · October 2010

Re: Thin Film solar panels

jeffkruse wrote: »

Welcome to the board. I to live in PR and installed my system last year. I received 75% in tax credits. This year is 50% in tax credits. Next year may be different (60%?). In order to get the tax credits my equipment needed to be UL approved with a specific warranty. The equipment needed to be on the approved list. You can also submit equipment to be added to the list if it meets certain requirements.

Do some research on the tax credits and you can save (in taxes) 50% of the cost right now.

Also, don’t overestimate (because of clouds) the amount of sun you get unless your system will be in the South West of PR.

Not is the best because my economy position is a medium class person

In Puerto Rico a few Solar Power Company have a injust enrichment protected by the Goverment and AAE ( Administracion de Asuntos Energeticos )created by AEE
behind curtain ( Autoridad de Energia Electrica )
I explain this

1- Only this few Solar Company have the aproved of the Domestic,comunity or
comercial proyect to bring in AAE
2- I consult this few Solar Company include one of the top of the line called by AAE
( I dude this ) (Universal Solar) the price for the Solar Power Electric Sistem for
my house ( Not the 2 Solar water pump sistem )with 8 Evergreen Solar Panels
and similar components i mentioned before exept the cost is Over $26,500.00 with 50% Tax credit or
50% Obama incentive the total cost is about $13,250.00 or over
not to mention $375.00 to pay for the estimate $13,250.00 + $375= $13,625.00
Installation of my Solar Power include the System of the House,system of solar water pumps ( Include the 2 pumps ) all panels wires tubes breakers box and pay the work of the Electrician the total price not overtake $8800.00 or less
Were is the Savings ??? $13,625.00 - $8800.00 =$4825.00 Over pay
3- AAE mulct every person with $1000.00 or over ho try to install a Solar Electric
Power Sistem if this person not in the list of AAE or have the autority of this agency , THIS is a Clear Violation of the Civil Rights of one person because
i purchase a Pep Boys ( Made in China Generators) gasoline generator who produce the same electric power and this not ocur but ; why with Solar Power???
AAE advertence my for this mulct
If one Agent of the AAE pass in my farm to mulct me i throw stones or blow with bottles because is an injustice for enrich this few Solar Companys

Thank

Chespi

jeffkruse · October 2010

Re: Thin Film solar panels

Wow Chespi, your really cynical.

It’s not that bad. I am a middle class person also. My adjusted household income was just above $30K. The Tax credits worked great for me.

You are correct with most of what you say but… I wanted to buy locally but the prices were so high I would have had to been rich or stupid. So, I bought on-line, not from Sun Elec. I can PM you who if you want. They are in New Mexico. My cost for my whole system was $16K and I did the work myself. Yes, I had a certified installer friend help me. I am not on the grid so no AEE/PREPA inspection.

There are many people “certified” to install solar. There is a list. They have nothing to do with AEE.

My advice would be to buy “approved” equipment from the list. If you find something not on the list it’s easy to get it on the list. I got the Evergreen panels put on the list. They must be UL approved and have a good warranty to be put on the list.

Then do the paperwork, (you can not owe any money to the gov or for child support).

Get someone on the list to help you install your system.
Call me if you want to talk 425 770 8832

jeffkruse · October 2010

Re: Thin Film solar panels

If its not clear, I spent $16000 for my system but got $12000 in tax credits. So my system only "cost" me $4000.

I got 75%.

Its now 50%.

Next year it might be 60% but grid tie only.

I get about 4 sun hours a day. To many clouds in the afternoon in the summer.

Thin Film solar panels

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