Need new water heater

niel · October 2010

i'm in the market for a water heater, but it's not an emergency just yet. i presently have a 40 gallon tall natural gas tank type that i suspect won't last too much longer and is beyond its warranty of 6yrs. i see in my research prices have given me sticker shock as i put this one in about 7-8yrs ago for $150 with my labor. i'm not seeing some of the efficient tank type around and the tankless on demand types that there is a pa rebate for can cost in the thousands with only about a 5yr warranty on them.

i may not be able to do the labor on another water heater due to my physical limitations now.
i need options as well as opinions before this thing does give out on me as i need to have a course of action.

Cariboocoot · October 2010

Re: Need new water heater

Neil;

If your usage is low you probably would see an advantage to on-demand gas-fired heater. That's what is going into this house as soon as I get around to it and can justify disposing of a functioning electric tank heater in favour of spending $1,200 to save a few dollars a month. Silly, isn't it?

Around here cheap gas/electric tank-types start at $250 and go rapidly skywards - without install.
Over number of years and as many houses I can't say I've ever seen any real difference between an inexpensive one and a top-dollar "name brand". The quality of the water has more of an effect on how long they'll last. The one in the Langley house is over 15 years old and still working, but so "sooted up" with minerals that it's not very efficient anymore.

Slappy · October 2010

Re: Need new water heater

a lot of the tanks (in a nut shell) has more insulation than the cheaper ones, and they will charge more for it. if it was me, I would settle for a mid-grade price range with a decent warranty and add a water heater blanket wrap?
(side note, wife claims that I am getting cheaper in my old age.....until the power bill came in, then she smiled, and now she does not complain):D
Mine went out 2 months a go, got tired fooling with it, so I turned it into a bread box solar heater, also straight wired the heating element, so on extended cloudy days, I just plug it in and turn the breaker on, run for 30-45 minutes, then turn the breaker off and unplug it. its does well for a family of 3. But now, winter is approaching???

BB. · October 2010

Re: Need new water heater

I just changed mine out two weeks ago.... 50 Gallon 12 year gas water heater $638 + almost 10% California sales tax. :grr

The last 6 year water heater lasted 12 years or so... Cannot complain. The new water heater is Energy Star Rated (tank is more heavily insulated and about 10-15% less rated gas usage--had to raise the copper pipe to reach over the new tank+18" riser for garage mounting above gasoline fumes+earthquake strapping).

Our new requirement includes "Smog Control" (low NOx emmissions). It appears to do this through the use of a catalytic burner. Works well, low natural gas fire rate (36,000 BTU burner).

One thing to be careful of--The new sealed burner natural gas fired heaters (probably LP too) have a glass vial that breaks when a flash fire (from gasoline fumes) is detected. I guess it shuts some internal dampers... Problem is that many water heaters don't say anything about the glass vial--sometimes gets broken from roughly handling during installation--and for a while, there were no spare vials available--You had to replace the whole water heater. And lastly, the new sealed units may plug up if installed in a dusty area. Ours (a GE unit from Home Depot) also makes a strange very low frequency rumbling noise when it fires up. Quite noticeable in the bonus room above the garage--but I can live with it.

In the end--I just could not justify a new tankless gas water heater... New gas line (high BTU), new stainless steel venting, possibly noisier, and certainly much more expensive to install.

My gas bill in the summer is only $20 (cooking and hot water). Assuming I saved 22% with a tankless water heater--At most, that is $4 per month savings. It would probably take me more than 20 years to get the higher installation/unit costs for tankless back.

Your mileage may vary.

-Bill

n3qik · October 2010

Re: Need new water heater

I did a boiler and indirect hot water storage tank 2 years ago. If you heat with gas look into this. Most of the tanks are stainless and have lifetime warranties. But they are not cheap. Mine tank was about 1300.00 and I installed it myself.

LucMan · October 2010

Re: Need new water heater

niel wrote: »

i'm in the market for a water heater, but it's not an emergency just yet. i presently have a 40 gallon tall lng tank type that i suspect won't last too much longer and is beyond its warranty of 6yrs. i see in my research prices have given me sticker shock as i put this one in about 7-8yrs ago for $150 with my labor. i'm not seeing some of the efficient tank type around and the tankless on demand types that there is a pa rebate for can cost in the thousands with only about a 5yr warranty on them. i may not be able to do the labor on another water heater due to my physical limitations now.
i need options as well as opinions before this thing does give out on me as i need to have a course of action.

A 5 five year warranty water heater can be made to last 20-25 years, simply by changing the sacrificial anode rods before they are completely eaten away ,and by draining the bottom of the tank once per year. The time it takes to desolve the anode rods is dependent on your water quality. Purchase the magnesium anode rods not the cheaper and widely used aluminum rods. I buy the sausage link type as they are easier to install because of low ceiling heights over the water tank. They run about $45 for a 3/4" x 40" rod.

Next option is to install a water heat with a stainless steel tank ,(Super Stor) they usually have a lifetime warranty and require no maintenance, but it's a good idea to drain the tank once in a while to remove any sediment. They have low standby losses, and high initial cost.

Next option is to go with one of the new heatpump (Hybrid) water heaters if your old one is electric. They are 2-3 times as efficient as straight electric and have low stand by losses. Reliability is not known yet as they are new.
The condenser or air filters on the refrigeration unit will have to be cleaned yearly and drain the tank as with the others.

I Hope this helps

niel · October 2010

Re: Need new water heater

lucman,
it is natural gas i use.

n3qik,
i use gas for all 3- cooking, hot water, heat via hot water crown boiler.

general,
i am aware of cleaning them out every year and the insulation, but i know this thing will not last too much longer as sometimes it sounds like a boiling pot of water with a clanking lid and they aren't supposed to be this noisy. i need more things to see like possible links, makes and model #s, rough pricings, difficulties in instalation as well as warranty info. i think it is very dumb to pay high labor costs every 3 to 5 years just because it's a cheaper hwt. 5-10 years ago it was common to see tanks with 10 years and even longer warranties even though they had cost more. now it seems 6yrs is common and is outrageously priced. the one i have is a 6yr wrnty type and it's a piece of crap. it was the 2nd one too for the 1st one failed 1yr into its warranty and they replaced it foch, but i still had to do the labor, again.:grr

BB. · October 2010

Re: Need new water heater

This is the GE model I got, $638 (link may work--Home Depot may display different units for different regions). Only the 40 gallon 6/12 year and 50 gallon 12 year natural gas units are Energy Star Rated (at least at my store).

MFG Model # : SG50T12TXK00

The Yellow tag says it uses 242 Therms (100,000 BTU ~ CC) per year

Energy Star 50 gallon natural gas tall eco-friendly water heater. 12 Year tank & parts limited warranty. 1 Year full in-home service warranty. 36,000 BTU Ultra low NOx radiant burner. Piezo ignition system for no match lighting. High Altitude compliant up to 10,200 Ft. Factory installed T & P relief valve. FVIR Compliant with exclusive air/fuel shut-off device offers double protection from igniting flammable vapors outside the water heater. Maintenance free combustion air intake, no filters to clean/replace.

ADA Compliant : No
Application Type : Residential
Assembled Depth (in.) : 23 in
Assembled Height (in.) : 63.25 in
Assembled Width (in.) : 23 in
Automatic Shut-off : Yes
BTU Heat Rating : 36000 Btu/h
CSA Listed : Yes
Capacity : 0 oz
Commercial/Residential : Residential
Depth : 23 in
Draft Hood Size : 3 in
ETL Listed : No
ETL Safety Listed : No
Efficiency : 0.62
Energy Star Compliant : Yes
Finish : Steel
Finish Family : Beige/Bisque
Fuel Type : Natural Gas
Fuel Type : Gas
Gas Connection Size : 1/2 In.
Gas Or Electric : Gas
Gas Type : Natural Gas
Height : 63.25 in
Ignition Type : Piezo
Indoor/Outdoor : Indoor
Item Package Type : Cardboard Container
Item Weight : 170 lb

-Bill

niel · October 2010

Re: Need new water heater

the 40 gallon model looks nearly perfect. why did you opt for 50 gallons, any particular reasons? it does make me wonder about the 1yr in home thing as i doubt i will be able to take it to them.
if i remember rightly the standards are higher for the rebate from this state as only the on demand have efficiencies high enough to qualify. i'm not worried about that because they are overpriced and short on warranties anyway.

BB. · October 2010

Re: Need new water heater

I have 4 people in our home--the two kids who we practically have to pry out of the shower... For the 12 year models, they all have the same $294 per year cost rating, and the 50 gallon 12 year is only $21 more than the 40 gallon 12 year model.

We also keep the temperature pretty low (keep the costs down; yep, we are cheap)--That means less thermal storage for running the shower. If I ran out of hot water often--I would crank up the temperature to "normal" for most people.

So far, running efficient (aka small burner) water heaters with low flow shower heads seems to do alright for us.

Check if you have the room (check the dimensions, the extra insulation and height from the larger burner area) was a bit of a pain for me... I had to cut off the existing copper pipes and solder on some right angles and extensions. Worked out OK in the end (I can never get the water pipes the right distance from the water heater so the mate correctly).

If you have anytime that you think the extra hot water would be handy (guests at your home, etc.)--I think the extra $21 is worth it for 10 gallons more hot water (the recovery time is pretty slow on these new water heaters--The older water heaters had 45,000-55,000 BTU burners and would heat up much quicker--and waste more fuel).

You probably have pretty cold incoming water (especially in the winter)--so the extra capacity would not hurt either.

The 48 gallon non-energy star heater is rated at $315 per year...

If you want a little more to read--Here is the water heater document from the Gas Appliance Manufacturer's Association. Has a list of different brands/models and their various ratings (PDF Download).

-Bill

niel · October 2010

Re: Need new water heater

aww the 40gal is fine. it is rare we run out of hw and that's usually because of my stepdaughter running the shower for an hour. i don't actually care if she runs out of hw as that's a good hint for her butt to vacate.;) in the case of guests it won't be that bad and allowing a small recovery time is sufficient for all to shower without any problems.
i will check the height of my present hw tank and see how much i'd have to have the pipes shortened. 47" floor to the top of the hw tank, but there's is plenty of room for expansion on the pipes and some reworking of the screw pipe connection location will be needed. i may have a problem more with the flue pipe as mine goes angles off at about 30 degrees into a bricked chimney at about 61 or 62 inches. slope would go more shallow than 30 degrees, but not by much i think. i may be pushing this too far for natural convection of the hot gasses rising with an angle, but has worked for a long time like this and i never felt any escaping past the flue piping.
edit to add that i should not have indicated that i have a tall wh now, but i can accommodate one. the ge is a bit taller than most tall water heaters though.

BB. · October 2010

Re: Need new water heater

One thing to watch for with the newer energy efficient gas fired appliances--They have less waste heat so they can condense water on the inside of long stack runs.

The tank water heater is probably not too bad... But when I when to an 80% efficient gas furnace--I had problems with the double wall steel long pipe run and condensate running back to the furnace (turns out that the job was not to code anyway). Later I replaced with a 90% efficient furnace that used PVC pipe as the stack.

In your case, the condensate could rot out the chimney mortar. You may want to take a light, long metal rod, and a mirror and check inside to make sure everything is still solid inside.

-Bill

niel · October 2010

Re: Need new water heater

"They have less waste heat so they can condense water on the inside of long stack runs."

wonderful, i almost wish you hadn't mentioned that for mine is a long run and the mortar is old as it is. you now have me wondering with my newer furnace put in a few years ago as it is a high efficiency boiler rated .85, if i remember rightly. the furnace flue goes up a separate chimney than the wh and both are about 40ft in length from the ground with both the furnace and hw tank being below ground in a basement. higher efficiency and therefore better warranties seems to be a detriment.

i better check my furnace cleanout to see if there's much there from last year.
as far as the hw tank is concerned, i'm now really more worried about what i can do than before.

mike95490 · October 2010

Re: Need new water heater

Here's the novel Idea I used for my hot water, I series stacked 2, 50ga gas heaters. first is set to about 80F, 2nd is set to 120F. I've installed "water softener magnets" on the inlets of each heater ($10 worth of ceramic mags) and with Los Angeles hard water (really hard, full of calicum). I also chnaged the hose bib drain out to a full flow ball valve.
So I have 100 gallons of earthquake water, FAST recovery rate (2 big burners), when I flush the tanks 2x a year, I get a pound or so, of soft calcium "pebbles" that can be smushed between your fingers. and summer time gas bill for showers and laundry for 4, is about $15
Neither tank sees a large thermal differintal, and I'm at 20 years on one, 22 on the other.

techntrek · October 2010

Re: Need new water heater

BB. wrote: »

I have 4 people in our home--the two kids who we practically have to pry out of the shower...

I have to plant dynamite charges in the shower before my kids get in so I can get them out before they drain my 40 gallon tank of every btu. Pry bars don't work.

I do have mine on a timer and have it wrapped with an extra 6" of insulation all around, so that helps. If I could use all the energy they burn as they bounce around the house, to pre-heat the water intake then maybe I wouldn't care so much about their long showers.

BB. · October 2010

Re: Need new water heater

I did this once as a kid--My brother would drain our 40 gallon water heater and leave me with a cold shower as I headed off to work...

So, on time I drained the tank for my shower and let him follow... Never had a problem again. (I don't know how he did it to this day--I had to turn the water on full hot, stand to the side to avoid scalding, and run the darn thing for over 10 minutes to get it stone cold.

:p).

-Bill

icarus · October 2010

Re: Need new water heater

My vote would be, price and other considerations not withstanding,, A Takagi or Rinnai demand tankless, ideally coupled to a solar preheat tank. A lot of money to save some gas, but flawless and endless hot water is pretty nice.

Tony

n3qik · October 2010

Re: Need new water heater

niel wrote: »

my newer furnace put in a few years ago as it is a high efficiency boiler rated .85, if i remember rightly.

Check to see is you heater has a condensation tube. If not, then you are good to go.

I ran into this same problem when replacing my boiler. Chimney has two 45 deg bends, so impossible to put a liner in for a high efficient heater. Mine is rated at .83 so I think you will be ok.

n3qik · October 2010

Re: Need new water heater

This is the Indirect hot water heater I installed:

http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/our-products/water-heaters/water-heaters.aspx

techntrek · October 2010

Re: Need new water heater

icarus wrote: »

My vote would be, price and other considerations not withstanding,, A Takagi or Rinnai demand tankless, ideally coupled to a solar preheat tank. A lot of money to save some gas, but flawless and endless hot water is pretty nice.
Tony

Until the minerals in the water clog the tubes in the tankless. I wanted a tankless badly a few years ago, have propane and 400 amp service available so I could have gone either way. Until I read about people having problems in just a year or two and decided to keep the tank.

niel · October 2010

Re: Need new water heater

ken,
call me dumb with this stuff as i don't know what a condenser tube is or where that is located let alone the indirect hot water heater ins and outs as i'm unfamiliar with the parameters there. my hot water heater is not located adjacent to my furnace hot water boiler of a crown make with they're separated by about 25ft on seperate chimneys. i forget the crown model i have and i think it's btus are around 136k or so as i forgot that too. i originally had a weil mclain boiler that was way oversized for my place at 210 btu input and it started leaking from the boiler. i was told i could've went down 2 models from what i got, but i know how some winters are here and i know what it's like to not see above 0 degrees f for a week. i forget if that was in the 80s that happened or the 90s, but i believe it was the 90s. i'll have to check into that.

edit to add:
boy is my face blue or at least it was back then.;) in checking into it i found i was wrong about it being a week below 0 f, but i have no doubt it was nearly 0 around the time period the weather service cites as the number 1 record. it was a very cold week or 2 as i recall and that weil mclain boiler was running nearly constantly. the lowest recorded temp for here was recorded that week as you see it listed to the right.
LONGEST PERIODS WITH TEMPERATURES ZERO DEGREES OR LOWER
(consecutive hours) 52 Hours 6am Jan 18, 1994 - 10am Jan 20, 1994 Lowest -22

niel · October 2010

Re: Need new water heater

tech,
on tankless i didn't like the warranties i was seeing along with the high pricetags that were on them. i doubt i'll save that much with one to make up for their outrageous upfront costs.

n3qik · October 2010

Re: Need new water heater

Niel
Not to worry, I did not know half of this till I started to research for the new boiler and water heater.

What brand/model of boiler do you have???

As for the indirect water heater. Mine is 20 feet from the boiler. A separate zone is made from the boiler to the tank. When the tank calls for heat. The boiler fires up and water is pumped to the tank. Most tanks have a coil to transfer the heat from the boiler side to the domestic side. Mine is a tank in a tank type.

niel · October 2010

Re: Need new water heater

ken,
it is a crown of the awi series and it had an input rating of 162k btu and an output of 132k btu. its date of manufacture was in 2005. is that enough or do you need an exact model number?

techntrek · October 2010

Re: Need new water heater

niel, yes 1994 is the year I remember it being -10 F when I left for work one day (north of Baltimore). That was a dang cold week. I think that was the same winter where we got ice all winter. Little snow, just ice.

Yes, price of the tankless systems is another obstacle.

Ken, that is an interesting system. I like the stainless tank.

n3qik · October 2010

Re: Need new water heater

Niel
Found the manual.

You have a non-condensing boiler, so you are good with the chimney. Also, your efficiency rating is:
Standing pilot = 80.3%
Electronic pilot = 81.7%

TechnTrek

I like it, but was $$$$$, but should outlast me/house. Summer, when the boiler is cold, it will use a little more gas to get the zone/loop up to temp. But during winter should be a lot quicker. I have it on a timer to run only from 5-6 PM. With that, the boiler only uses gas for 7-10 min. each night.

niel · October 2010

Re: Need new water heater

ok on the efficiency as i was trying to remember when crewzer and i were talking of federal rebates as it qualified, but seeing as how i didn't owe taxes i couldn't use it at that time. it must have been a 80% efficiency cutoff and i thought i remembered 85%. getting older is fun.:p

n3qik · October 2010

Re: Need new water heater

Yep, mine missed the Fed credit by a point or two. But to get the boiler at the rating, I would need a new chimney. That would cost more that what I would get back.

niel wrote: »

getting older is fun.:p

Yep, that is why I am doing things now and in away that will last the next 30 years.

niel · October 2010

Re: Need new water heater

n3qik wrote: »

Yep, mine missed the Fed credit by a point or two. But to get the boiler at the rating, I would need a new chimney. That would cost more that what I would get back.

Yep, that is why I am doing things now and in away that will last the next 30 years.

what was wrong with your chimney?
well, i have a tough time of it for living for today, but i am not too foolish as i indicated the el cheapos are throwing money away because of the labor more so than the extra for the hw tank. i can't quite plan for 30yrs, but i keep plugging away at current obstacles. knock one down and a new one appears leaving a backlog of unaccomplishments.

so is life, mine at least.:roll:

n3qik · October 2010

Re: Need new water heater

niel wrote: »

what was wrong with your chimney?

My chimney has a clay liner. The type of liner can not be used with a condensing type of boiler, as the water when it freezes on the liner will break/crack the liner.

niel · October 2010

Re: Need new water heater

ken,
ok it's the same thing bill was saying about chimney mortar joints too.

Need new water heater

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