$59 solar panel of 60 watts...How are they working out?

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BilljustBill
BilljustBill Solar Expert Posts: 219 ✭✭✭
in General Solar Power Topics #1
After the Kaneka G-SA060 came onto the market, and prices went up and down, I was wondering how these panels are performing for those that bought some?

What type of controller works for the 48v-60v panels?

Thanks,
Bill
Bill
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #2
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    Re: $59 solar panel of 60 watts...How are they working out?

    most of the upper tier mppt controllers will work with that pv and some will also argue that some of the pwm controllers will too, but with more losses.
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  • BilljustBill
    BilljustBill Solar Expert Posts: 219 ✭✭✭
    #3
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    Re: $59 solar panel of 60 watts...How are they working out?

    I understand about using the MPPT controller and it's ability to adjust the higher voltage.

    I'm still wondering about this type of panel. Any data or observations as to how they are working as well as lifespan of good voltage production?

    Thanks,
    Bill
    Bill
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  • stephendv
    stephendv Solar Expert Posts: 1,571 ✭✭
    #4
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    Re: $59 solar panel of 60 watts...How are they working out?

    You can see real stats from 20 different installations using the kaneka modules here: http://www.sonnenertrag.eu/suche.php?month=4&month1=4&year=2010&year1=2010&datenimport=alle&country=0&bundesland=&postcode=&city=&kfz=&district=&inbetriebnahme=&leistung=&leistung2=&neigung=&neigung2=&ausrichtung=&ausrichtung2=&nachfuehrung=3&hersteller=kaneka&modultyp=&modulart=&wechselrichter=&kosten=&kosten2=&extd_filter=y&search=search

    Some date back to 2006. when comparing, check the orientation!
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #5
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    Re: $59 solar panel of 60 watts...How are they working out?

    even though you may see what they are doing back to a 2006 install, thanks to stephen, it is hard to say just what might crop up as kyocera's problem with the kc120 took time to fully materialize even though that a was short time. i'm not trying to discredit any of the pvs, but it is just too early to tell what they will be apt to do long term until that time comes. i guess one could say so far so good that we're aware of.
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  • sunspot
    sunspot Registered Users Posts: 6 ✭
    #6
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    Re: $59 solar panel of 60 watts...How are they working out?

    i am going to use these panels so i am curious too. i am new and cant find where to post a thread, hmmm
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  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    #7
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    Re: $59 solar panel of 60 watts...How are they working out?

    What an amazing price.

    Makes me feel like I really overpaid for my Sharp 123watt panel ! Hehe.
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  • greypnb
    greypnb Registered Users Posts: 2
    #8
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    Re: $59 solar panel of 60 watts...How are they working out?

    I have 5 of the 48 volt kaneka panels to test. So far they work great. I am tied directly to a grid tie inverter and get about 1.75kwh per day average over 30 days in florida with alot of cloudy days. I think i could get more watts if i remove the blocking diodes i added for protection.
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  • BilljustBill
    BilljustBill Solar Expert Posts: 219 ✭✭✭
    #9
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    Re: $59 solar panel of 60 watts...How are they working out?
    greypnb wrote: »
    I have 5 of the 48 volt kaneka panels to test. So far they work great. I am tied directly to a grid tie inverter and get about 1.75kwh per day average over 30 days in florida with alot of cloudy days. I think i could get more watts if i remove the blocking diodes i added for protection.

    How do you have the panels and diodes wired?

    What type of inverter and hook-in to your house/grid do you have?

    Thanks,
    Bill
    Bill
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  • greypnb
    greypnb Registered Users Posts: 2
    #10
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    Re: $59 solar panel of 60 watts...How are they working out?

    I have a diode in series with each panel and fed into a 600w grid tie inverter , pluged into a kw meter and then to an outlet . As far as full sun i only get around 4-5 hours per day.When i am sure this is going to work out in a safe manner i will move the panels to a better place to get the max output.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
    #11
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    Re: $59 solar panel of 60 watts...How are they working out?

    Are the panels in series or parallel?

    Why are you using multiple blocking diodes for the array?

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #12
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    Re: $59 solar panel of 60 watts...How are they working out?

    you shouldn't need any blocking diodes, but you can put fuses inline with each of the pvs. you lost about 1/2v per pv at the rated current of the pv. say for example if each pv is rated 3a then it would be .5v x 3a = 1.5w per pv.

    do note that the 1/2v is only an approximate amount i used as an example for it could be higher or lower depending on the diodes you used.
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  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    #13
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    Re: $59 solar panel of 60 watts...How are they working out?

    Where in the heck are you guys finding these for $59 each?
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  • tallgirl
    tallgirl Solar Expert Posts: 413 ✭✭
    #14
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    Re: $59 solar panel of 60 watts...How are they working out?
    Carlo wrote: »
    Where in the heck are you guys finding these for $59 each?

    Google around for "thin film" solar panels. $0.99 per watt isn't uncommon these days.
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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #15
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    Re: $59 solar panel of 60 watts...How are they working out?
    Carlo wrote: »
    Where in the heck are you guys finding these for $59 each?

    I think they are sold out every where, or at least the price has gone up. They had the older MC3 connectors so came with some issues for some people.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • wild01
    wild01 Solar Expert Posts: 100 ✭✭✭
    #16
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    Re: $59 solar panel of 60 watts...How are they working out?

    well, I installed 22 of them on my system and couldn't be happier (for the price). Of course they could be smaller and lighter and tougher, but then they wouldn't have been so cheap ;) I haven't really crunched the numbers to see exactly what they are outputing, but according to the flexmax i'm getting 10-13 kwh a day, up from 3-5, and I haven't started my generator once since I installed them, the 10-13 kwh is probably a little low to because my battery is always floating by midafternoon, even after watering the garden for 1:45 a day full pressure strait off the well. I even bought an 1800 watt induction cooktop, and hardly use propane anymore.

    the only problem I've had was that the wind caught one that I didn't bolt down right (my fault) and broke it. I did notice something interesting about the breakage. It didn't shatter like a piece of tempered glass does, it broke more like standard window glass, so maybe not as strong as some other panels. might also explain why the glass on a kaneka panel is so much thicker than other panels. might use a heavier pieces of lower grade glass to get the same strength, idk.

    overall, I have been very pleased with my purchase, and given the opportunity I would buy more at that price. (but I'd need another house to put em on, I got more power than I need out of this array)
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  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    #17
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    Re: $59 solar panel of 60 watts...How are they working out?
    wild01 wrote: »
    well, I installed 22 of them . . . according to the flexmax i'm getting 10-13 kwh a day, up from 3-5

    How can you get 10-13 kwh/day from only 22 panels at 59 watts/panel. That's 1298 watts of panels. You would have to be getting 10-12 hours of full sun on them! Where do you live?
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  • dmiller
    dmiller Solar Expert Posts: 68 ✭✭✭✭
    #18
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    Re: $59 solar panel of 60 watts...How are they working out?

    Perhaps you've heard of the international space station?

    It's great these work. $ per watt per year is the important metric and and still an unknown. I''ll be interesting where the purchase price settles. $1/watt is unnecessarily low. But the current $2+/watt is too high considering the availability of Sun panels at ~$1.80.
    I don't understand how the non-UL prices can vary as much as they do. Is pv less of a commodity than I believe?
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  • russ
    russ Solar Expert Posts: 593 ✭✭
    #19
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    Re: $59 solar panel of 60 watts...How are they working out?

    Better yet it is a battery based system.

    Say 59 watts * 22 each * 8 hours * 55% = 5,7 kWh

    Must just be a 'good' estimate. You read a lot of these where people are getting more than is there.

    Reminds me of a Doonsbury strip - the preacher had just activated a website and when asked how many hits so far he replied 'several hundred thousand'. When the friend questioned about so many in a short time him the preacher replied, 'stands to reason'.
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  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    #20
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    Re: $59 solar panel of 60 watts...How are they working out?
    russ wrote: »
    Better yet it is a battery based system.

    Say 59 watts * 22 each * 8 hours * 55% = 5,7 kWh

    Must just be a 'good' estimate. You read a lot of these where people are getting more than is there.

    Reminds me of a Doonsbury strip - the preacher had just activated a website and when asked how many hits so far he replied 'several hundred thousand'. When the friend questioned about so many in a short time him the preacher replied, 'stands to reason'.


    Why * 55%? With the MPPT he should be doing better than that. No? Or is the 55% to compensate for his faith?
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #21
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    Re: $59 solar panel of 60 watts...How are they working out?
    swamibvt wrote: »
    Why * 55%? With the MPPT he should be doing better than that. No? Or is the 55% to compensate for his faith?

    If you start with panels' "nameplate" rating and then factor in all the system losses by the time you get to "AC out" you usually have about 50-60% of the Wattage you started with. Not an absolute; just a rule-of-thumb. :D
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  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #22
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    Re: $59 solar panel of 60 watts...How are they working out?

    Here is an elaboration on the 50-55% rule of thumb.

    Take the name plate rating, and consider an 80% of name plate as a starting point. PV seldom nears 100%. Then add in wiring loses, charge controller loses, battery charging efficiency (~80%) inverter loses etc and you end up with ~50%. I then multiply this all by the number of hours of "good" sun one can expect, seldom more than 4 on average over the course of the year, including weather, season etc. (assuming ideal panel orientation).

    So here is how I like to figure, as an easy calculation.

    60 watt name plate panel for example.

    60/2*4=120 wh of power out the inverter per day on average.

    Now you can consider if the 4 hours is reasonable given your site location, but the other numbers are pretty constant. One other thing to consider is that as the batteries come close to "full" the charge controller will dial down the current supplied to the batteries, leaving more potential power "on the table" so to speak.

    Remember, your mileage will vary, but one other rule of thumb is that most people over estimate the amount of solar power they can really get on average, and they tend to underestimate their loads at the same time, leading to systems that are undersized and they tend to under perform.

    Tony
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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #23
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    Re: $59 solar panel of 60 watts...How are they working out?
    swamibvt wrote: »
    Why * 55%? With the MPPT he should be doing better than that. No? Or is the 55% to compensate for his faith?

    Lots of things involved here, the thin film panels are derated from their initial output as they can produce 30-50% ABOVE rating for the first 90 days plus, finally settling to their name plate over the first year. Also they might be measuring the value to the battery rather than use, ie; DC rather than AC.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • stephendv
    stephendv Solar Expert Posts: 1,571 ✭✭
    #24
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    Re: $59 solar panel of 60 watts...How are they working out?

    What Photowitt said. The Kaneka's are rated as 80W initially, and only stabilise down to 60W after some time.
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  • russ
    russ Solar Expert Posts: 593 ✭✭
    #25
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    Re: $59 solar panel of 60 watts...How are they working out?

    The listing on their site for a 60W panel is 60W - no 80W is mentioned anywhere

    If by chance they do provide a bit additional up front due to rapid degradation in the early months are you going to size the balance of system based on getting 80 W rather than 60?

    No - of course not.

    The 60W panel is a 60W panel - anything else is simply what some salesman or green type came up with.
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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #26
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    Re: $59 solar panel of 60 watts...How are they working out?

    Thanks for calling me an unthinking liar...

    Just for that you can look it up!!!

    Just the Facts!!!
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #27
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    Re: $59 solar panel of 60 watts...How are they working out?
    russ wrote: »
    The 60W panel is a 60W panel - anything else is simply what some salesman or green type came up with.

    No. In this case the explanation is for why these panels may seem to be "super performing" when first installed. It's better to know that now than to post in six months' time wondering where the power went.
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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #28
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    Re: $59 solar panel of 60 watts...How are they working out?

    Awe Chit...

    From Kaneka's PDF document G-SA060-001 Limited Warranty and specifications;

    "1. During initial 6 weeks of operation, the MODULE has higher electrical output than rated output (See Performance at STC (stabilized)). The Pmax may be higher by 38% and Imp may be higher by 19%."

    From the Kaneka Document KanekaK60.pdf

    Technical data
    Stabilised values
    Nominal peak power (Wp) 60,0
    Guaranteed minimum power (Wp) 57,0
    Nominal voltage (V) 67,0
    Nominal current (A) 0,90
    Open-circuit voltage (V) 92,0
    Short-circuit current (A) 1,19

    Initial values

    Nominal peak power (Wp) 79,0
    Guaranteed minimum power (Wp) 75,05
    Nominal voltage (V) 74,0
    Nominal current (A) 1,04
    Open-circuit voltage (V) 96,0
    Short-circuit current (A) 1,22

    Do your own research next time! and be careful with your flames!
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • russ
    russ Solar Expert Posts: 593 ✭✭
    #29
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    Re: $59 solar panel of 60 watts...How are they working out?

    I don't disagree with the numbers - just saying the initial high production is of little to no value as far as I can see. Nominal power is the important item.

    The panel is rated at 60 watts under 1000 watt/m2 insolation - which few places really have anyway.

    It is good for people to know the initial readings are not going to continue after the first couple of months.
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  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #30
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    Re: $59 solar panel of 60 watts...How are they working out?

    Nearly all Pv panels produce less than rated under most conditions. Panel temps, shadowing and MPPT issues take a bit off here and there, such that I like to use an 80% rule of thumb. Anytime I am putting more than 80% into my batteries I think I am winning.

    Tony
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  • wild01
    wild01 Solar Expert Posts: 100 ✭✭✭
    #31
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    Re: $59 solar panel of 60 watts...How are they working out?
    swamibvt wrote: »
    How can you get 10-13 kwh/day from only 22 panels at 59 watts/panel. That's 1298 watts of panels. You would have to be getting 10-12 hours of full sun on them! Where do you live?
    well, I installed 22 of them . . . according to the flexmax i'm getting 10-13 kwh a day, up from 3-5

    Jesus we get 2 pages of debate over a poor reading of 1 post

    before I installed my kaneka's my system was producing 3-5 kwh per day ACCORDING TO MY FLEXMAX 80 (this should take care of efficiency debates, I'm using kwh IN not necessarily OUT)

    after I installed the 22 kaneka's I went to 10-13 kwh per day FOR A GAIN OF 7-8 KWH PER DAY.

    and yes I live in an ideal solar location, Sun Edison built one of the nations largest solar farms 32 miles from my house and there are several more going in right now. I live in Colorado at 7800 feet and get on average 350 sunny days a year.
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