Ideal PV array voltage

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randall_l
randall_l Registered Users Posts: 6
Hi folks.

I'm just beginning my journey towards solar enlightenment, so please excuse my ignorance.

So far, I've learned that most 12V systems use 19V or higher panels, and use the charge controller to charge a 12V bank of batteries. However, I haven't been able to find what the ideal input-voltage to the charge controller should be for 24V or 48V battery banks.

This is where all you solar gurus come in...

Is there a website, formula or table to tell me what the ideal PV array voltage is for 24V or more battery banks? Does it even matter with a decent charge controller?

Thanks in advance for your help.

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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,440 admin
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    Re: Ideal PV array voltage

    The minimum charging voltage for a 12 volt battery is around 14.4 volts (15+ volts for equalization). Allow for 1-2 volts drop across the controller and another bit for wire drop. Plus add for the fact that hot solar panel's drop their output voltage--and you are pretty near needing ~17+ volts minimum from the solar panel to properly charge a 12 volt battery bank. The loaded "optimum power voltage" from a solar panel:
    • Pmp=Power at max power point
    • Vmp=Voltage maximum power
    • Imp=Current maximum power
    • Pmp=Vmp*Imp
    For a 24 volt battery bank, 2x the battery voltage (~28.8 volts + 3 volts for drops > 31.8 volts Vmp). And so on...

    Now, things get a bit more complex. There are simple PWM controllers (Pulse Width Modulation)... They are nothing more than a controller flipping on and off a switch from a few times a second to >10,000 times a second. Same as you turning on and off a switch to charge a battery with the "optimum" current by changing the duty cycle -- The more "on time" (% on), the more average current.

    A PWM controller works by simply having Vmp>Vbatt-charging + Vdrops

    Notice, that the higher Vmp (say Vmp=100 volts), the battery really does not see more than Vbatt-charging -- so there is a loss of energy when solar panel Vmp>>Vbatt-charging when using PWM controllers.

    But they are cheap and with the right Vmp setup--pretty efficient.

    There is a second major class of charge controllers called MPPT solar charge controllers (Maximum Power Point Tracking). These guys are really "switching power supplies" that use inductors to efficiently down convert from High Voltage / Low current (from the solar panels) to Low Voltage / High Current (to the battery bank)... More or less similar to an AC power transformer.

    Much more expensive, a bit more wasteful of power (more electronics to such energy to operate) but works very efficiently over a wide range of input voltages (unlike PWM controllers).

    For example... Say you had a solar array with 5x 50 watt solar panels with a Vmp rating of 17.5 volts:
    • 50 watts / 17.5 volts = 2.86 amps Imp
    • PWM: 5x 2.86 amps * 14.4 volts batt charging = 206 watts into the battery bank
    Now do a High Voltage array (5 panels in series). Since the current of 5 panels in series is still 2.86 amps:
    • PWM high voltage array: 2.86 amps * 14.4 volts = 41 watts with same array in series
    A PWM must have the Vmp ~ Vbatt-charge + 3 volts or so to be efficient.

    However, a MPPT type controller can "transform or converter" energy... So it would take:
    • MPPT Low voltage: (5x * 2.86 amps) * 17.5 volts / 14.4 Vbatt = 17.4 amps charging battery
    • MPPT High voltage: (5x 17.5 volts) * 2.86 amps / 14.4 Vbatt = 17.4 amps charging battery
    So, ignoring losses, the MPPT converter can convert more energy into the battery bank with either a low voltage or high voltage setup.

    Now--There are real losses and limitations. For example, Varray low still has wiring drop (which I ignored) and needs heavy wiring to transmit the ~14.3 amps of Solar Array Current.

    But, with MPPT, I can make a high voltage array where the solar wiring only has to pass 2.86 amps at current (but at 87.5 volts). This allows me the option of using less expensive (smaller gauge) copper wire from the array to the charge controller, and/or to put the solar panels a much longer distance away from the battery bank/charge controller/battery shed...

    For many people, the higher voltage / lower input current from the solar array and the ability to have a longer distance between the array and the battery shed is well worth the extra cost of the controller.

    There are some more "gotcha's" in there... For example, the higher Vmp voltage tends to be less efficient for the MPPT controller to down convert. Also, there is a maximum Voc (Voltage open circuit) from solar panel which ranges from ~30 volts to 150 volts for MPPT controllers.

    At least for a start--It will probably make more sense if you describe the setup you would like and we do a paper design--After you do it a couple times, it will make more sense.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • FreeWatts
    FreeWatts Registered Users Posts: 14
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    Re: Ideal PV array voltage

    Thanks for the quick and simple explanation BB.
  • Schmidt
    Schmidt Registered Users Posts: 12
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    Re: Ideal PV array voltage
    randall_l wrote: »
    Hi folks.

    I'm just beginning my journey towards solar enlightenment, so please excuse my ignorance.

    So far, I've learned that most 12V systems use 19V or higher panels, and use the charge controller to charge a 12V bank of batteries. However, I haven't been able to find what the ideal input-voltage to the charge controller should be for 24V or 48V battery banks.

    This is where all you solar gurus come in...

    Is there a website, formula or table to tell me what the ideal PV array voltage is for 24V or more battery banks? Does it even matter with a decent charge controller?

    Thanks in advance for your help.


    Randall_l,

    Welcome to the world of PV energy.

    When it comes to optimal array voltage, this will depend on how your system is designed.

    Option 1: PMW Controller: These controllers are common, especially with smaller systems. However, one of the disadvantages of this type of controller is that your array voltage is configured to the same voltage of your battery bank.

    Option 2: MPPT Controller: This type of controller is the desired solution for larger arrays and is becoming more common with 500W and smaller arrays.

    One advantage of this type of controller is that it allows the PV array to be configured to a higher voltage than the battery bank. For 24V, and especially 48V, through design and a lot of real world experience, we've found the optimal voltage for Vmp and Voc is 70-71VDC and 88-89VDC, respectively. This voltage offers good conversion efficiency, easy array assembly and a proper safety buffer when it comes to the cold weather we experience in Canada.

    Hope this helps.

    EDIT: Spelling (Doh!)
  • randall_l
    randall_l Registered Users Posts: 6
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    Re: Ideal PV array voltage

    Thanks for the responses B.B. and Schmidt.

    It took me a bit to digest and process the information that B.B. posted, but I think I've got it.

    My wife and I are putting together our 'load list'. It's difficult to do because we will be building off-grid from the get-go, which is a complete departure from the old energy-inefficient town house we inherited from my wife's parents.

    We're planning on a 53' shipping container (52'6" l x 8'3" w x 9'1.5" d inside). I'm working on a slide-out system that will turn the main part of the container (inside the 40' frame) into a 38' by 15'3" space, where the bedroom, living/dining room, toilet room and shower room will be. The ends (outside the 40' frame, about 6'2" l x 8'3" w inside) will be storage and utilities. We're also planning on a separate 20' container (also with a slide out) for my wife's kitchen--which incidentally is where the majority of the power will be used.

    I'm currently figuring out (and experimenting with) LED lighting using MR16 sockets--removing the 12V incandescent bits and building an LED insert. So far, I can get 86W equivalent (measured using a light-meter) packed in to a single MR16 shell, using only about 8W (3 x 265000mcd 10mm LEDs)--though a larger parabola would focus the light better. I just have to figure out where, and how many lights. I'm going for task-lighting instead of area lighting.

    Propane will be used for the stove/range and tankless water heaters (in the toilet/shower rooms and kitchen).

    I'd like to use solar for in-floor heating--that's why I'm playing with building integrated PV/PWH panels.

    As far as AC power goes, I figure we'll need 1 receptacle in the kitchen (for my wife's Cuisinart collection), 1 in the shower room (for my wife's hair dryer) and 1 in the living/dining room (for a charging station and any other toys). Everything else will be 12/24/48V DC powered.

    Maybe it's unrealistic, but it's a goal.

    Cheers!
    Randall
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,440 admin
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    Re: Ideal PV array voltage

    Actually, you may want to look at powering everything using 120 VAC and an efficient inverter (or several, one smaller TSW for electronics. A large cheap MSW for pump, vacuum cleaner,etc.).

    !2 volts is difficult to send very far, need very heavy gauge copper wire for your power runs (your 120 watt device takes 1 amp at 120 VAC and 10 amps at 12 VDC--Plus a 4 volt drop at 120 VAC is no big issue--a 4 volt drop at 12 VDC is a non-working device). 24 volt appliances are around (made for trucks and boats). 48 VDC are pretty rare (and probably expensive).

    And, it depends on how much you want/can afford to spend for off-grid power.

    You can probably power your home with 500 watts of solar panels--but you would have to dump the hair drier and use the other stuff minimally. Some lights, laptop computer, modem of some sort.

    In the end, it really does work out to something like $1-$2 per kWhr for off grid power (including battery bank replacement every 4-8 years or so, capital costs, hw repairs, generator fuel cost, etc.)...

    So--when you look at something like a hair drier. Throw a Kill-a-Watt meter on it and see what your daily usage would be... It is very possible that the $0.40 per day power usage (vs 0.$04 per day at home) is well worth keeping the spouse happy.

    In the beginning, perhaps a generator and a smaller battery bank+inverter for quiet evenings/nights while you are building/living there part time. Get a used RV propane powered refrigerator. Once you are about ready to live there full time, look at a larger solar off-grid system and a good Energy Star Refrigerator or chest freezer conversion.

    The following year, then you can measure your real loads and better plan out your system.

    In the end, we can make some guesses based on, for example, using 2kWHours per day and no generator usage for ~9 months of the year (where will your home be--look up local solar irradiation).

    For lots of interesting ideas and other sources for information, plus even an example or two for planning an off-grid system--take a look at this thread (random information about Solar RE):

    Working Thread for Solar Beginner Post/FAQ

    -Bill

    PS: Unless you are pressed for "roof space" for your solar panels--Check out pricing just plain Solar PV + Solar Thermal panels separately.

    Solar Thermal panels are so efficient (compared to solar PV), that you will need only something like 40 sqft of solar thermal panels per person for much of your hot water needs.

    Solar thermal heating in winter--Don't know--probably depends on your location. In any case, the above thread also has some links to DIY solar thermal projects too (solar thermal is easier/more practical for DIY vs solar PV/Electric systems).
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: Ideal PV array voltage

    Sounds pretty realistic to me. Don't forget about the water/well system.
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Re: Ideal PV array voltage
    solar_dave wrote: »
    Don't forget about the water/well system.

    If you go very deep, you may need a 240V pump & inverter, because starting surge on 120V may be horrific.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • randall_l
    randall_l Registered Users Posts: 6
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    Re: Ideal PV array voltage

    Thanks BB., solar_dave and mike90045.

    The plot of land (10 acres) we're looking at has a small, all year, glacier fed river (more like a creek) snaking through it. The people who own the whole farm (100 acres) take their water from it and use a filtration system. We're thinking of doing the same.

    A while ago one of the sites I maintained computers for was tossing the remnants of a 00 guage spool (it was purchased by mistake, couldn't be returned, they couldn't use the rest of it and no one wanted to buy it--expensive mistake). I nabbed it for a couple hundred $, thinking I was going to harvest the copper, but now that I'm thinking solar, I have a better use for it.

    There's 174' left on it.

    Since I'm planning on roof-mounting the panels (maybe one or more of those cool Zomeworks tracking mounts), I could use that for a main bus and have breaker panels along the way--feeding each section.

    I'll probably go 24V. Mostly because my wife has already sourced the 24V appliances for her kitchen (with the exception of her Cuisinart collection). Once she has her mind set, there's no changing it. She's even sourced a 12V (15A) hair dryer (I know, I'll need a voltage converter). I think she's as excited as I am to do this.

    Oh, BB.: I looked onto those Sundrum Thermal add-ons for PV panels. Interesting, but I'll need to see/examine/play with one before I can make up my mind. Thanks for the info.

    Cheers!
    Randall
  • Schmidt
    Schmidt Registered Users Posts: 12
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    Re: Ideal PV array voltage
    randall_l wrote: »
    Thanks BB., solar_dave and mike90045.

    The plot of land (10 acres) we're looking at has a small, all year, glacier fed river (more like a creek) snaking through it. The people who own the whole farm (100 acres) take their water from it and use a filtration system. We're thinking of doing the same.

    A while ago one of the sites I maintained computers for was tossing the remnants of a 00 guage spool (it was purchased by mistake, couldn't be returned, they couldn't use the rest of it and no one wanted to buy it--expensive mistake). I nabbed it for a couple hundred $, thinking I was going to harvest the copper, but now that I'm thinking solar, I have a better use for it.

    There's 174' left on it.

    Since I'm planning on roof-mounting the panels (maybe one or more of those cool Zomeworks tracking mounts), I could use that for a main bus and have breaker panels along the way--feeding each section.

    I'll probably go 24V. Mostly because my wife has already sourced the 24V appliances for her kitchen (with the exception of her Cuisinart collection). Once she has her mind set, there's no changing it. She's even sourced a 12V (15A) hair dryer (I know, I'll need a voltage converter). I think she's as excited as I am to do this.

    Oh, BB.: I looked onto those Sundrum Thermal add-ons for PV panels. Interesting, but I'll need to see/examine/play with one before I can make up my mind. Thanks for the info.

    Cheers!
    Randall

    Randall_l,

    Very cool project! We have a couple clients that have constructed off grid homes out of shipping containers.

    As mentioned, if you decided to go with DC appliances, it is critical to ensure proper sized cable is used to ensure proper performance of appliances.

    Also, I would steer clear of Zoomeworks passive (using there liquid/vapour pressure system). They work great during the summer, but are basically useless in the winter months when we get below freezing.

    Have fun with the project! If you have any questions, don't hesitate to PM me.

    Cheers,

    Schmidt
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,440 admin
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    Re: Ideal PV array voltage

    You are welcome...

    By the way--Not sure about roof mounted trackers??? Obviously, need a good concrete foundation for hold those things...

    Roof Mounting when you have the space??? May be better to ground mount. Although, roof mount may cut down the thievery a bit:grr. You may want to do something with alarming your place (if there is anyone nearby to hear/respond to an alarm). Also, you can use some security hardware (non-standard bolts) to slow them down a bit.

    Also, Dave_Sparks here is a huge proponent of tracking arrays for off-grid solar (he is an installer in the California Sierras). Look up some of his older posts on the subject. Here is one thread with a hardware recommendation.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • randall_l
    randall_l Registered Users Posts: 6
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    Re: Ideal PV array voltage

    Re: Zomeworks passive tracking

    I poured over Zomeworks passive tracking rack pages. From what I read, it sounds like (just guessing based on the behaviour) they just used distilled water in the tubes--which may account for the poor performance in winter.

    It may be as simple as replacing the water with a more hardy solution for northern climates.

    I'm trying to decide if the price tag for their smallest unit is worth the experiment. Alternatively, I can build something similar and play around with different liquid solutions until I find one that works in the -30C to 38C I see in Ashcroft.

    Cheers!
    Randall
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Re: Ideal PV array voltage
    randall_l wrote: »
    Re: Zomeworks passive tracking

    I poured over Zomeworks passive tracking rack pages. From what I read, it sounds like (just guessing based on the behaviour) they just used distilled water in the tubes--which may account for the poor performance in winter.


    I think it's propane, butane, or something like that.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • Peter_V
    Peter_V Solar Expert Posts: 226 ✭✭✭
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    Re: Ideal PV array voltage

    The Zomeworks use Freon R-22 for the weight transfer fluid

    Even with a near perfect vacuum, water wouldn't work if the temps dropped much below 70 degrees F

    Butane will work down to about 30 degrees and Propane way down into the Negatives somewhere.

    I used Freon in my home made tracker because Butane/Propane are not very dense, about 1/2 the weight of water per gallon. Freon is only a little lighter than water.

    If I'd used Propane I would have needed to use 4" square tubing instead of the 2.5" I used or the 2" Zomeworks uses.

    I've got some photos of my tracker up at
    http://www.vanderwal.us/Solar/DIY_Tracker.html
    Sooner or later I'll get around to writing a description of the process.

    Cheers.
    mike90045 wrote: »
    I think it's propane, butane, or something like that.
  • hillbilly
    hillbilly Solar Expert Posts: 334 ✭✭
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    Re: Ideal PV array voltage

    Very cool project you've got started! I'm curious about heating/cooling, and how that will play into your energy consumption. As for system sizing, and thus, to a certain degree system voltage; I'd be very careful how low you go on your load estimates. It's pretty easy to cut back, even WAY back for a short spell, but over time loads seem to have a way of growing and multiplying. I would likely look at sizing the system as a whole to allow for some expansion (if possible), and in that sense I'd say 24V or even more likely 48V would allow for a larger sized PV array (my charge controller for example will handle an array of up to 800watts at 12V, 1600 @ 24V, and 3200 @ 48V).

    As for using DC stuff, some folks are way into it and find all kinds of cool gadgets and appliances that will work on 12V (and sometimes 24V). I have to say that I find that there is a much wider range of options at 120VAC; choices of size, cost, efficiency, and even where it can be purchased. To me this just makes life a bit easier, if we need to replace/repair something we've found it much simpler with AC stuff (the only DC loads we still have at this time are some fans).

    On Propane, that has been a real help to us at our place! Our stove and fridge both run on propane, as well as our demand water heater and a small space heater. The fridge is fantastic as far as it's low consumption, the stove is good, the space heater and the water heater are both pretty greedy fuel guzzlers in comparison. Will you be able to have a large tank and have a truck provide service? This has been the only real downer for us, as the local propane dealer can't/wont deliver to our place... which makes things a bit more work/expense having to fill a couple 7.5 and 10 gallon tanks every few weeks.

    Best of luck in all your efforts!