ceramatec battery

ws9876
ws9876 Solar Expert Posts: 448 ✭✭✭
in General Solar Power Topics #1
is anyone else coming up with better batteries for storage like these guys????

Any idea when these will be available.??? I hope there is a smaller one ...I dont need a fridge sized one...
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  • AntronX
    AntronX Solar Expert Posts: 462 ✭✭
    #2
    Re: ceramatec battery

    Looks like they are working on better Lithium based batteries. Do not expect them to be as cheap as current Lead-Acid batteries. If electric vehicles become seriously mass produced, lithium batteries will become cheap enough to compete with Lead. Used lithium batteries from EVs would be also useable in solar PV systems for energy storage. Lithium based technology today can give us battery 4 times lighter, 5,000 - 10,000 cycles and can last 15 - 25 years in renewable energy storage applications. It's not cheap up front, but supposed to pay for itself in longevity.
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  • retrodog
    retrodog Solar Expert Posts: 53 ✭✭
    #3
    Re: ceramatec battery
    AntronX wrote: »
    Looks like they are working on better Lithium based batteries. Do not expect them to be as cheap as current Lead-Acid batteries. If electric vehicles become seriously mass produced, lithium batteries will become cheap enough to compete with Lead. Used lithium batteries from EVs would be also useable in solar PV systems for energy storage. Lithium based technology today can give us battery 4 times lighter, 5,000 - 10,000 cycles and can last 15 - 25 years in renewable energy storage applications. It's not cheap up front, but supposed to pay for itself in longevity.

    What does "4 times lighter" mean? Is that 1/4 the weight of Lead Acid equivalents?
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #4
    Re: ceramatec battery

    Probably--They like to use light weight/active metals (like Lithium) to reduce the weight of batteries (while keeping the same energy storage capacity).

    Of course, spill a little lead and water from a battery--not much happens. Spill a little lithium from a battery and mix with water--lots of fireworks.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • AntronX
    AntronX Solar Expert Posts: 462 ✭✭
    #5
    Re: ceramatec battery
    BB. wrote: »
    ...Spill a little lithium from a battery and mix with water--lots of fireworks.

    No fear mongering please, lithium batteries cannot be spilled, and no longer spontaneously burn up. Take a look at this nail penetration test of LiFePO4 cell.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #6
    Re: ceramatec battery

    Not trying to fear monger--It also depends on chemistry and construction too.

    LiFePO4 cells have been designed to behave better than earlier/different types of Lithium construction (as I understand it).

    Obviously, busting open a Lead Acid Battery and dumping sulfuric acid everywhere is no picnic either. Let alone a little spark + some hydrogen gas from charging can cause some excitement too.

    I mixed up this response with the one earlier today asking about using Lithium batteries from a Palm (which probably are not LiFePO4 based).

    Sorry,
    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • drees
    drees Solar Expert Posts: 482 ✭✭✭
    #7
    Re: ceramatec battery
    AntronX wrote: »
    Do not expect them to be as cheap as current Lead-Acid batteries. If electric vehicles become seriously mass produced, lithium batteries will become cheap enough to compete with Lead.
    Looking at our host's store, it appears that AGMs are currently about $250/kWh, no?

    If so, that isn't far off from what Lithium batteries cost these days, looks like you can get large format Lithium batteries for about $350/kWh these days. $320/kWh if you buy in more than single quantity and shop around a bit.
    AntronX wrote: »
    Used lithium batteries from EVs would be also useable in solar PV systems for energy storage.
    Definitely. Will probably be at least 5 years before you start seeing any significant quantity of "used" EV batteries, though, maybe longer.
    AntronX wrote: »
    Lithium based technology today can give us battery 4 times lighter, 5,000 - 10,000 cycles and can last 15 - 25 years in renewable energy storage applications. It's not cheap up front, but supposed to pay for itself in longevity.
    And don't most Lithium batteries charge/discharge more efficiently than lead acids, too? Though good battery management is an absolute must for Lithium cells - you'll quickly destroy them if you over-discharge or over-charge them.
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  • john p
    john p Solar Expert Posts: 814 ✭✭✭
    #8
    Re: ceramatec battery

    Drees you are correct in what you have said about the cost coming down but even if they 2 times the cost of lead acid in theory used carefully they should last more than 2 times the life of lead acid..
    But the ones fron cars like Prius are difficult to get set up to use in solar energy situations because the high voltage and complicated associated electronics to control charge/ discharge.. Life span??? here Toyota give 5 yrs guarantee but Lexus give 8 yrs so they must be expecting long life from them
    LIfe Po ?(lithium ion phosphate )batteries are very safe if destroyed and the contents are close to being inert under most circumstances, I have cut one up to see inside of a dead single cell and nothing happened then I washed the table down after it very dirtied it no problem with the washing with water..
    I have done 2 setups for use of lithium ion phosphate batteries for solar energy storage now 18 months ago and so far no problems..
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  • drees
    drees Solar Expert Posts: 482 ✭✭✭
    #9
    Re: ceramatec battery
    john p wrote: »
    Drees you are correct in what you have said about the cost coming down but even if they 2 times the cost of lead acid in theory used carefully they should last more than 2 times the life of lead acid..
    Definitely - totally ignored lifetime costs.
    john p wrote: »
    But the ones fron cars like Prius are difficult to get set up to use in solar energy situations because the high voltage and complicated associated electronics to control charge/ discharge..
    Toyota is currently using NiMH batteries, not Lithium in their hybrids...
    john p wrote: »
    Life span??? here Toyota give 5 yrs guarantee but Lexus give 8 yrs so they must be expecting long life from them
    Actually, in CARB states in the US, they give a 10 year 150k mile warranty.

    Biggest drawback to most Lithium batteries I can see is the need for advanced battery management which will increase the cost, but I think that the benefits are getting close to the point where they can outweigh the drawbacks...
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  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #10
    Re: ceramatec battery
    john p wrote: »
    ........
    I have done 2 setups for use of lithium ion phosphate batteries for solar energy storage now 18 months ago and so far no problems..

    OK, now we want specifics, and parts lists and ...... 24V system, 48V ?? Individual BMS modules, or manual control ???? more more more....
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

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  • john p
    john p Solar Expert Posts: 814 ✭✭✭
    #11
    Re: ceramatec battery

    mike90045 The systems are both identical and relatively simple.
    24v was chosen as easy to get and low priced charge controller and inverter
    8 strings of 8 x10ah cells
    individual cells were fitted with 600ma over charge controllers..bought with the cells
    A 24v PWM charge controler was used mostly because neither person wanted to go to the expense of MPPT charge controlers
    the over charge and under discharge is acted upon by 2 voltage controlled switches connected across 3 of the cells. set to disconnect the controler if the voltage of the 3 cells exceeded 11.25v.and if the voltage dropped to 7.8v.
    The voltage limits of the inverter to a large extent set the parameters.
    average night usage is about 40ah
    solar panels are 4x80w Sharp

    What both owners were looking for over everything else was a system that required no looking after.Neither system is large by any means and mostly used for lighting and house water pumping.
    Both systems set up about Nov 2009. everything works perfectly..despite my worry about how the batteries would be for first 6 months as had never used them before. except one to play with and destroy.

    System is set up in Philippines where only their wives and young children are .Most of the time both husbands away working in mining in Africa.
    All items were bought in Australia and all except the solar panels were taken to Phils by me as luggage so no duty paid at either end. As all solar parts bought in Phils carry almost no warranty and very expensive.
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