MS tristar MPPT software

mike95490 · June 2010

Well, I had no trouble at all loading new firmware, but didn't get past step 1 with programming new setpoints, or retrieving log files.

Had no trouble id'ing the device, but after getting connected and a delay while it downloaded the logs to somewhere, is as far as I got. And off grid, with no web or phone is tough.

So, I've got the fridge hooked up, the water pump is working, and the water miser caps are on order.

And, any ideas on how to "dial in" the power factor for a water pump ? The XW6048 claims 950W when it's running, and it's only a half HP pump @ 240V (Grundfos 10S05-9, Franklin 3 wire) ? Add a "run" cap ? Magic Power factor corrector ?

Mike

Solar Guppy · June 2010

Re: MS tristar MPPT software

Mike,

Your need the MSView software, once connected, run the TriStar Wizard if you want step-by-step on the set-points and options.

Or, download the current settings, then select edit , make the changes and then save them back to the controller. By the way, you not down loading log files, you retrieving the current settings.

On the XW, sounds about right, most AC pumps are horrible efficiency wise, my 3/4HP pool pump pulls 1300 watts vs 754 watts = 1 HP

SG

mike95490 · June 2010

Re: MS tristar MPPT software

Solar Guppy wrote: »

Your need the MSView software, once connected, run the TriStar Wizard if you want step-by-step on the set-points and options.

Or, download the current settings, then select edit , make the changes and then save them back to the controller. By the way, you not down loading log files, you retrieving the current settings.

Was running the MS sw, I'll try your suggested sequence.

Also, only was able to work via the serial port. Got nothing using the MS dongle, other than a connection ack. Used an Edgeport 8 USB/serial adapter.

Dave Angelini · June 2010

Re: MS tristar MPPT software

Mike
When I inherit a client with a pump like that it is the first thing to go! I assume this is not the well pump but a pressure pump for the house. You need to go DC and lose the surges and out of "our" league power consumption. Nice to have one like that for a wildfire though...

mikeo · June 2010

Re: MS tristar MPPT software

Franklin 3 wire

It seem Franklin makes most of the motors used in well pumps these days, no matter which brand. There is usually a Franklin stickon label that comes with the pumps that lists starting current, run current and PF. You might google one up if you can't find it.

mike95490 · June 2010

Re: MS tristar MPPT software

Dave Sparks wrote: »

Mike
When I inherit a client with a pump like that it is the first thing to go! I assume this is not the well pump but a pressure pump for the house. You need to go DC and lose the surges and out "our" league power consumption. Nice to have one like that for a wildfire though...

Nope, a grundfos well pump, 160' lift @ about 10 gpm. Pumps from a pond (sunny hours only, via a manual switch) up to 3ea 3,000gal tanks. Just running it an hour a day, gives me 600 gallons or so. Tank elevation gives me all the pressure I need.
Earlier estimates led me to believe I had about 120' of tank elevation, which would have better for both gallons/watt and pressure, I don't need 62psi, but that's where the terrain allowed for tank pads. Have to have 2,000 gal on hand, under pressure, at a hydrant, for CalFire.

Dave Angelini · June 2010

Re: MS tristar MPPT software

OK, a well pump! So what is the problem with an hour a day? I am with SG, that is pretty normal for that type of pump. Are you just wishing it was less?

mike95490 · June 2010

Re: MS tristar MPPT software

Dave Sparks wrote: »

OK, a well pump! So what is the problem with an hour a day? I am with SG, that is pretty normal for that type of pump. Are you just wishing it was less?

YEP. 0.5hp should be about 400W. If I'm showing 950W, I figure it's bad power factor, and I should be able to tune it down some, so the inverter is working less/batteries last longer. But I don't know if you can use a cap to tune a franklin motor.

BB. · June 2010

Re: MS tristar MPPT software

If it is a "plain induction motor"--then yes, a you can use a motor run cap to get the power factor closer to 0.9 or so (I think you don't want to try for 1.0).

You really need to measure the power factor (volts, amps, phase/PF or VA) to know. It is possible that the inverter is really reporting VA instead of Watts (P=V*I*PF does not equal V*I=VA in AC circuits).

And even then, bad power factor may limit the maximum load you can put on the inverter--but may not affect your true DC power that it consumes that much (just higher I^2 * R losses because of the higher current the motor consumes with "bad power factor"). It would be interesting to see how much the inverter's input power is reduced if you do correct the PF).

Given that a Grundfos pump (as I understand it--I am no expert) has its own electronics/controller (because it can take AC or DC from battery/solar panels)--I would think it would not have a "bad" power factor). And that a Motor Run Cap would not be appropriate for this installation (and in fact, may cause you other problems with inverter stability).

So, I would get some more information from Grundfos before I put any line cap on there.

-Bill

Dave Angelini · June 2010

Re: MS tristar MPPT software

Mike, I can buy into doing this to make the inverter run cooler or have more energy available, but you said make the batteries last longer??? It is running off the sun right? You are not doing this at night? Totally agree with Bill except you can't really hurt much other than the pump which has easy access. It is not down 300 feet or deeper like the ones I have to worry about up here in the Sierra.

I am with you on trying to get it lower and your priorities sound right as you have the refrigerator running;) Is this going to be permanent soon I hope!

Oh yea, do you have a shunt or clamp-on DC that you can measure the DC?

mikeo · June 2010

Re: MS tristar MPPT software

YEP. 0.5hp should be about 400W

Here is a link
http://www.franklin-electric.com/business/WaterSystems/Service/AIM/page-13.aspx

I think your pump motor would be the 6th one down in the table and shows about 670 watts running and about 960 average starting. The power factors are also given.

mike95490 · June 2010

Re: MS tristar MPPT software

mikeo wrote: »

Here is a link
http://www.franklin-electric.com/business/WaterSystems/Service/AIM/page-13.aspx

I think your pump motor would be the 6th one down in the table and shows about 670 watts running and about 960 average starting. The power factors are also given.

Standard induction motor, not the fancy DC/AC electronic controller motors. I'll save the $, and buy 2 more panels

It's the 240V 3 wire 214505. I looked it up yesterday, and discovered I'd have to change the controller out, the electronic relay can't deal with a run cap. Spec for run cap was 15uf @ 400V. So I'm not sure what the XW shows, I thought it displayed the current watts (KW) , but there's more menus than I had time to go through. I'm only pumping around solar noon, after batteries are bulked up. And it's hard wired 240V so I can't put it on my kill-a-watt meter.
(motor spec claims 23A start/locked, the 960 is max load at full service factor, not locked rotor)

Dave Angelini · June 2010

Re: MS tristar MPPT software

Mike,
Did the firmware work? Also what is your impression of the display panel for this unit? What if there were 2 CC's on the display. I may be needing a few for a project? SG R U around?

Solar Guppy · June 2010

Re: MS tristar MPPT software

The TriStars have network features, ( not talking about the http stuff ) you need the MS Meterbus hub. You can mix mppt and pwm units as well on the network

A single LCD can view all parameters of any meterbus networked charger regardless where the LCD front/remote panel is located. There are system level screens that totalize all the connected units or you can drill down into any of the individual connected chargers

Currently, the maximum number of support LCD front/remote panels is 5 when networked, doubt that would effect anyone though.

The online documents show all the available screens of the TSM-2 ( product name for the LCD )

mike95490 · June 2010

Re: MS tristar MPPT software

Dave Sparks wrote: »

Mike,
Did the firmware work? Also what is your impression of the display panel for this unit? What if there were 2 CC's on the display. I may be needing a few for a project? SG R U around?

I got the firmware (A & B sides) installed and working (passed checksum) and that's just fine. And some more pointers to try the custom setpoints on my next trip. Never got the log pulled off, didn't have time to puzzle out how the management software worked. I'll have to do that another time. Not having a manual that can be printed is a real pain, pop-up help screens only go so far....

Display panel is essential, it ships with the very crudest panel.

Anyone know if Morningstar has a users forum ?

Mike

Dave Angelini · June 2010

Re: MS tristar MPPT software

Thanks Mike & SG !
I was concerned about when networked how hard or easy it would be for one of my tech challenged customers to access the data. The one I have is just being used for yard lighting for now and I am trying to decide between this model and the xwcc for this project. I really find the scroll mode of the xw to be flawless so I am concerned I am going regret it with 2 CC's.

SG is the remote panel TSM-2 comparable to the SCP-2 in ability to read the display?
better, worse, or the same?

Solar Guppy · June 2010

Re: MS tristar MPPT software

The SCP is a significant advancement over the TSM-2. It has a large graphical display, the data transmission is in the megabits per second so data access is instant.

The TSM-2 provides adequate data and will provide system level totals, but the data rate is ~9600bps so updating is slower than the Xantrex remote

The scrolling feature in the XW was my idea, could easily be put into the TSM-2 if customers think its a useful feature. For the average Joe, the TSM-2 with simple screen, layout and menus would probably be a better choice.

I really like the SCP unit ( have one myself ) but even for an engineer is a bit of a stuggle to figure out out menu does what IMHO

Dave Angelini · June 2010

Re: MS tristar MPPT software

Thanks so much SG ! nice perspective as usual... Really helped me to avoid going backwards from the SCP from one of my techless customers. As an engineer it is easy to knock them sometimes but I always remember that many of them have skills that many of the Tech world do not. For instance, several of them can feed themselves off the land up here.

By all means tell Morningstar that the scroll feature would be enough for me to switch over in many cases! I would add to it (because engineers are always changing things) by making the scroll alpha/numerics as big as possible for the older guy's! Stay cool down there!

mike95490 · August 2010

Re: MS tristar MPPT software

Well, I'm actually getting log files in .XML format, but I've got no idea what's in them, excel just gives me a empty spreadsheet with column headings - no way to figure how to view offline, the graphs I was able to view while connected.

MS View wants to load a .csv file, but only saves .xml Arghh!

dwh · August 2010

Re: MS tristar MPPT software

mike90045 wrote: »

Well, I'm actually getting log files in .XML format, but I've got no idea what's in them, excel just gives me a empty spreadsheet with column headings - no way to figure how to view offline, the graphs I was able to view while connected.

MS View wants to load a .csv file, but only saves .xml Arghh!

Try opening the xml in an advanced text editor like Notepad++ or Ultraedit and see if there is anything there other than column headings.

mike95490 · August 2010

Re: MS tristar MPPT software

I'd upload it if the file type was permitted, any .xml experts or Morningstar gurus want a whack at it, send me an email, and I'll send a copy to you.

sample excerpt:

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="ISO-8859-1" standalone="yes" ?>
<morningstar>
<loggeddata version="1" model="0" type="8" set="8">
<record retrievalTime="2010-08-23T04:47:33.000+00:00" retrievalHourmeter="3337" hourmeter="1302">
<variable id="100" value="no flags" />
<variable id="102" value="59.23" />
<variable id="103" value="49.75" />
<variable id="104" value="109.34" />
<variable id="106" value="332" />
<variable id="107" value="1890" />
<variable id="110" value="0" />
<variable id="111" value="152" />
<variable id="112" value="0" />
</record>
<record retrievalTime="2010-08-23T04:47:33.000+00:00" retrievalHourmeter="3337" hourmeter="1313">
<variable id="100" value="no flags" />
<variable id="102" value="50.62" />
<variable id="103" value="49.58" />
<variable id="104" value="99.16" />
<variable id="106" value="10" />
<variable id="107" value="50" />
<variable id="110" value="0" />
<variable id="111" value="0" />
<variable id="112" value="0" />
</record>
<record retrievalTime="2010-08-23T04:47:33.000+00:00" retrievalHourmeter="3337" hourmeter="1319">
<variable id="100" value="no flags" />
<variable id="102" value="59.14" />
<variable id="103" value="49.53" />
<variable id="104" value="108.00" />
<variable id="106" value="409" />
<variable id="107" value="2320" />
<variable id="110" value="0" />
<variable id="111" value="131" />
<variable id="112" value="0" />
</record>
<record retrievalTime="2010-08-23T04:47:33.000+00:00" retrievalHourmeter="3337" hourmeter="1323" hourmeterDiscontinuityBefore="1">
<variable id="100" value="power on reset, alarm occurred" />
<variable id="102" value="55.90" />
<variable id="103" value="50.26" />
<variable id="104" value="104.18" />
<variable id="106" value="4" />
<variable id="107" value="20" />
<variable id="110" value="0" />
<variable id="111" value="0" />
<variable id="112" value="0" />
<variable id="114" value="Controller was Reset" />
</record>

////// skip to end \\\\\\

<record retrievalTime="2010-08-23T04:47:33.000+00:00" retrievalHourmeter="3337" hourmeter="3337">
<variable id="100" value="no flags" />
<variable id="102" value="58.81" />
<variable id="103" value="48.24" />
<variable id="104" value="107.25" />
<variable id="106" value="1600" />
<variable id="107" value="8820" />
<variable id="110" value="0" />
<variable id="111" value="434" />
<variable id="112" value="0" />
</record>
<record retrievalTime="2010-08-23T13:49:48.000+00:00" retrievalHourmeter="3345" hourmeter="3345" hourmeterDiscontinuityBefore="1">
<variable id="100" value="power on reset, alarm occurred" />
<variable id="102" value="50.93" />
<variable id="103" value="50.10" />
<variable id="104" value="54.38" />
<variable id="106" value="0" />
<variable id="107" value="0" />
<variable id="110" value="0" />
<variable id="111" value="0" />
<variable id="112" value="0" />
<variable id="114" value="Controller was Reset" />
</record>
</loggeddata>
</morningstar>

Solar Guppy · August 2010

Re: MS tristar MPPT software

Mike, I would suggest you send an email to MS support, I'm sure they can give you the documentation to decode what values link to which operational parameters to work offline

SG

mike95490 · August 2010

Re: MS tristar MPPT software

Solar Guppy wrote: »

Mike, I would suggest you send an email to MS support, I'm sure they can give you the documentation to decode what values link to which operational parameters to work offline

SG

I actually got an offline email from them, and there is a new version of software out, that I will try.

mike95490 · August 2010

Re: MS tristar MPPT software

I've installed the new (8-2010) morningstar View software, merged my 2 .xml files, and was able to load it into the software, AND export it as a .CSV, which Excel was able to understand. And it's readable. Now I'll start making up some charts from the data. I'm feeling better, and may run and get the logs off the Sunsaver and Suresine in the little shed too!

MS tristar MPPT software

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