A different approach for GT w/ BB?

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DSinOR
DSinOR Registered Users Posts: 18
I'm attempting to advance along the learning curve. :roll:

GT-BB PV systems feature combined inverter/charger/transfer-switch units.

They are automated. When the grid goes down, they divert backup power to "dedicated circuits". From an automated systems standpoint, this is a smart design. It mandates a reduced load when the system automatically switches to battery backup.

I'm in a split level house in rural east OR, with no central air or heat. We have 2 wood-burning stoves for heat, we're on well water, and we use about 50kwh per day in normal life. If we shut off the electric cooking & water heater & laundry, and make reasonable efforts to conserve energy, we can get by okay on ~10kwh per day.

I'm planning a solar thermal install for hot water and floor heat.

I'm also planning a 3000watt PV GT-BB system. UL listed components. Inspected. Qualifying for and obtaining the fed and state tax credits are a high priority for this PV system.

If possible, I'd rather have a less automated system, and I'd rather have my backup power available for my entire main panel, as opposed to having it restricted only to "dedicated circuits".

I propose a GT-BB system that acts like a GT system: When the grid is up, I have net metering with my utility company. When the grid goes down, the house loses all power, the PV array is idled, and the dead grid is isolated from the residential power sources.

When the grid goes down, I the homeowner would turn off light switches, PC's, laundry, etc, and then go to my main panel and manually shut off the breakers for my electric stove & water heater. All of this would serve to manually reduce the load prior to powering up the backup system.

Then I walk over to my manual DPDT transfer switch and move it from the "Grid-Tie" to the "Off-Grid" position. I live life accordingly until grid power is restored, at which point I manually move my transfer switch back to "Grid-Tie".

AltGTBB.JPG

Is this possible? Feasible? Can it pass code inspection? Is it likely that the power company will have a problem with it?

If the GT Inverter employs an auto-shutdown function when grid power is absent, how does one convince it to provide inverter function in the "Off-Grid" mode?

Thanks in advance for comments, thoughts, feedback, suggestions, etc.

As far as why would I be interested in this...
To save a buck or two, to simplify, to gain flexibility in availability of backup power during grid outages, and because it's a good fit for my house and lifestyle. :cool:

Comments

  • Solar Guppy
    Solar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭
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    Re: A different approach for GT w/ BB?

    Lookup on Google and read the manual for a Xantrex XW-6048, does all this in a single UL listed unit
  • RCinFLA
    RCinFLA Solar Expert Posts: 1,484 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: A different approach for GT w/ BB?

    How do you use 50 kWH per day without air conditioning or electric heat?

    You must take a lot of hot showers!

    With XW you put in an auxilary breaker panel that feeds the loads you want to have battery backed up by XW.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
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    Re: A different approach for GT w/ BB?

    The XW Hybrid (GT/Off-Grid inverter with internal charger and generator connections) information is available here.

    The subpanel is the way to go... The XW includes its own 120/240 VAC split phase transfer switch--but it is limited to ~60 amps maximum (as I recall).

    To install a large transfer switch (utility/Inverter) capable of powering your electric stove/hot water heater would be way larger than you need, and normally would not power with a inverter system.

    If you want to power your stove/hot water heater from a backup generator--then you would install those circuits behind the generator's transfer switch.

    One advantage to the automated transfer for protected sub-circuits is to keep your fridge/freezer/etc. running while you are away from home (travel/etc.).

    It is all included in the base price of the XW hybrid inverter system (need accessory controller for generator auto-start control) for ~$3,400.

    Just a 100/200 Amp generator automatic transfer switch and box will cost around $1,000.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • DSinOR
    DSinOR Registered Users Posts: 18
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    Re: A different approach for GT w/ BB?

    Thanks for the feedback guys.

    We use 50kwh per day because we're a family with kids in a big house with a nice big lawn and a vegetable garden. My home office has computers, printers, UPS's, fax machines, router, satellite modem, and cordless phones.

    Thanks for the Xantrex links. I should have been more clear. I started thinking about alternatives after reading the Xantrex, Outback, and SMA literature.

    I do not want to run my electric stove or water heater or clothes dryer from my backup power. During grid outages, the plan is for those breakers to stay off.

    However, I do want to have access to any other circuit in the main panel, and the flexibility to choose which I want to use during grid outages.

    This is a 3-level house with a separate large multi-purpose shop building. The main panel has a lot of small breakers in it. A lot. I'm not interested in eliminating any of them from available use during outages.

    When I'm on backup power, the plan is for every light in the house to be off except a few LED or CFL fixtures. I'd like to be able to run one computer for short periods with internet access, no UPS. My refrigerator and freezer will be on. My water well will operate in standard "on demand" mode with the pressure tank. We can massively reduce water consumption, cook outdoors in warm months, cook indoors on wood-buring stoves in cold months, and just generally cut back.

    In this type of situation, the house sort of "becomes a 30amp service" rather than a 100amp service, if that makes sense. My inverter should probably be able to handle a 5kw peak for occasional simultaneous fridge/water well events. Other than that, electric consumption can be quite low.

    The general idea is to replace the restrictive nature of a dedicated circuit subpanel with a less restrictive, manually operated system that places no limits on where or how I choose to use my backup power.

    Code will require the transfer switch to meet or exceed the panel capacity, so I'll need a 100amp or bigger manual transfer switch. First google result was a Ronk 7103 Manual DPDT 100amp xfer switch list price $400. Mebbe I can reduce that cost by shopping around a bit.

    If we have an outage for more than 12 hours while we're out of town, my neighbor can throw the switch for me. In this little neighborhood, we already have arrangements with neighbors for house-watching and freeze-protection during winter power outages while someone is out of town.

    Anyway, I don't mean to clog the board with justifications.

    I'm a noob. I'm interested in an alternative approach to a GT-BB system.

    I really think of it as an off-grid sytem that allows the user to grid-tie and net-meter if he chooses to do so. I know it's "different", but it's also very straightforward. For $10,000, why not try to get exactly what I want? :cool:

    I know there are some EE's and a lot of expertise on this board. I'm interested in feedback pertaining to code-compliant design, experience with similar ideas or systems, suggestions for hardware, reasons why some element will or will not work, and particularly, whether a single inverter can serve the typical GT functions of synchronization and auto-isolation (when grid power goes down), and also user-elected BB when the grid is off. Maybe there's a trick or a workaround? Maybe I'll need 2 inverters?

    Thanks!
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
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    Re: A different approach for GT w/ BB?

    The XW will do pretty much what you are asking for--in 6kW chunks per inverter (GT, no GT, battery fail over, generator control, etc.). And it does it for $3,500.

    Of course, you have to add the solar panels, charge controllers, battery bank, genset, etc... So, the overall solution is not cheap.

    Depending on your cash flow and needs... You could install the inverter+battery bank for XX hours of battery back, add a genset later (for longer outages, pick fuel of your choice).

    Later on you can add the solar panels + charge controller and sign up for Net Metering with your utility (and obviously, building permits for each step of the project).

    Don't worry about the justification--understanding your needs and the solutions out there are 1/2 the work in designing the system.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • sub3marathonman
    sub3marathonman Solar Expert Posts: 300 ✭✭✭
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    Re: A different approach for GT w/ BB?
    DSinOR wrote: »

    The general idea is to replace the restrictive nature of a dedicated circuit subpanel with a less restrictive, manually operated system that places no limits on where or how I choose to use my backup power.

    That's the problem. When it is manually operated there is the possibility for human error. Maybe a breaker isn't switched off that somebody thinks is switched off. You'll be switching on and off dozens of circuit breakers, which is inconvenient.

    Then there is the capacity. Depending on how much you want to run, you'll have to be calculating every time unless you have the same circuits labeled as only being able to be on during off-grid time.

    I definitely agree with the theory. It is really what I would have liked to have done too. I can figure out what needs to be on and off, I can calculate if I want to, I can take a bit of time to flip some breakers. But in the end it is much neater and easier and probably the best way to safely do it is to have a dedicated subpanel with the circuits you want to be backed up. In essence, the main panel can then be your "subpanel" with just the big circuits you don't need. Your subpanel can also have as great a capacity as your main panel if you choose, it doesn't hurt anything to have a 200 amp panel with a 30 amp transfer switch on it, if that is how you want it set up now, and then you have the capacity if you want to change things in the future.
  • dsp3930
    dsp3930 Solar Expert Posts: 66 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: A different approach for GT w/ BB?

    Setup the Xantrex XW system as designed with a sub-panel for your critical loads.
    Keep your items that you don't "need" on your main panel.

    It is a bit expensive, but you could invest in a tripple throw switch on your main panel service that would:
    - Disconnect the utilty feed to the main panel
    - Move the inverter to subpanel battery backup feed the main panel
    - Disconnect your inverter to main panel backfeed