Energy Star - Things Seem to Have Gone Terribly Wrong...

Windsun
Windsun Solar Expert Posts: 1,164 ✭✭
in Energy Use & Conservation #1
Gasoline powered alarm clocks? See the full report here http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-10-470


GAO’s investigation shows that Energy Star is for the most part a self-certification program vulnerable to fraud and abuse. GAO obtained Energy Star certifications for 15 bogus products, including a gas-powered alarm clock. Two bogus products were rejected by the program and 3 did not receive a response. In addition, two of the bogus Energy Star firms developed by GAO received requests from real companies to purchase products because the bogus firms were listed as Energy Star partners...
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #2
    Re: Energy Star - Things Seem to Have Gone Terribly Wrong...

    talk about gaining undue credibility through a e star backdoor.:grr

    our governmental employees doing what they do best. end of rant.

    i guess we need to conduct our own investigations when shopping for something, but that can be difficult to do if not on display with connectible power nearby for the times and circumstances we'd need to simulate that we are unlikely to have being it is where it is.:cry:

    that reminds me of the phone pranks we used to pull on people with a phone survey to find out if their phone is powered by either gas or electric. most didn't know believe it or not?:cry:
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #3
    Re: Energy Star - Things Seem to Have Gone Terribly Wrong...

    For me the kicker:
    To perform this investigation, GAO used four bogus manufacturing firms and fictitious individuals to apply for Energy Star partnership and submitted 20 fictitious products with fake energy-savings claims for Energy Star certification. GAO also reviewed program documents and interviewed agency officials and officials from agency Inspector General (IG) offices.

    It was the government scamming the government... I hope the procecuted the GAO for fraud--just like they would do for any "real company" that committed the same sort of fraud against the government. :roll: yea--right...

    My tax dollars at work. :grr

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #4
    Re: Energy Star - Things Seem to Have Gone Terribly Wrong...

    Sorry, but I am not the least bit surprised by this.

    Anytime any Gov't comes up with a regulation/law/whatever to try and protect/promote anything there will be con artists who find the loopholes and abuse the system. That the loopholes were found this time by another Gov't agency should be viewed as a good thing, but we all know that any resulting attempts to fix the problem will just change the problem instead.

    Such cynicism has stood me well over the years.:cool:
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  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #5
    Re: Energy Star - Things Seem to Have Gone Terribly Wrong...

    Venturing dangerously near that "political" cliff! or soap box! Let's not go there.

    T
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #6
    Re: Energy Star - Things Seem to Have Gone Terribly Wrong...
    icarus wrote: »
    Venturing dangerously near that "political" cliff! or soap box! Let's not go there.

    T

    i like that. he's advising the owner and moderators of the forum.;)
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  • audredger
    audredger Solar Expert Posts: 272 ✭✭
    #7
    Re: Energy Star - Things Seem to Have Gone Terribly Wrong...

    You tell them Tony ... :p As my ex-wife used to say; what's good for the goose is good for the gander!
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #8
    Re: Energy Star - Things Seem to Have Gone Terribly Wrong...
    audredger wrote: »
    You tell them Tony ... :p As my ex-wife used to say; what's good for the goose is good for the gander!

    so do you listen to your ex-wife?:confused::cry:
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  • audredger
    audredger Solar Expert Posts: 272 ✭✭
    #9
    Re: Energy Star - Things Seem to Have Gone Terribly Wrong...

    Not any more!!:grr
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  • Kamala
    Kamala Solar Expert Posts: 452 ✭✭
    #10
    Re: Energy Star - Things Seem to Have Gone Terribly Wrong...

    I want so much to speak.............................
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  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #11
    Re: Energy Star - Things Seem to Have Gone Terribly Wrong...

    Just to be clear,

    There are so many opportunities to "discuss/rant/spew/opine/whatever" about politics and the ramifications thereof, and indeed I do my fair share in other venues, but what I like is that this site is a respite/haven from that noise. I respect the expertise here on the subjects at hand, but I have a hunch that we cover the spectrum here with our political/religious/environmental/etc opinions and believes and since I think we all would agree that discussing that is can be a slippery slope, especially on such a forum as the internet where we are all just one google search away from a thousand pages of posting backing up our arguments no matter how "wrong" they are. I have found it just leads to noise,, and anger, all of which leads us away from the state mission: To disseminate information related (however remotely) to wind and sun energy, etc.

    We all know when the line has been crossed egregiously, what is less clear is where that line is sometimes. Best left to other places/venues is my only thought. So as Susan would say, lets keep it to watts/amp/volts and all that stuff that I don't understand.

    Tony

    PS If windsun wants to make political statements it is his right, since it is his site. If I don't like it, and respond, I am the one who may get tossed off.

    PS. On the other hand, I have found out the technical answer to most everything.

    The first is pretty technical, but the second makes up for it with easy to follow graphics!

    http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/parity.pdf

    http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/lajos.htm#a2

    I challenge anyone here to find a fundamental flaw in his argument!

    (Your not gonna like it,,,,, D. Adams)
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  • nvyseal
    nvyseal Solar Expert Posts: 108 ✭✭✭✭
    #12
    Re: Energy Star - Things Seem to Have Gone Terribly Wrong...

    I guess the only thing for me to say here, is I don't find this "shocking" ;) (speaking volt, amps etc...)
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  • audredger
    audredger Solar Expert Posts: 272 ✭✭
    #13
    Re: Energy Star - Things Seem to Have Gone Terribly Wrong...

    I think there is a valid point here, just as "we" have learned not to expect 100 watts from a 100 watt panel. Perhaps, we need to demand that the manufactures of "energy star" appliances publish the test conditions they use.
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  • russ
    russ Solar Expert Posts: 593 ✭✭
    #14
    Re: Energy Star - Things Seem to Have Gone Terribly Wrong...

    What is needed:
    1) The conditions - as set by Energy Star
    2) Third party testing required for certs

    İ am all for Energy Star - without it the consumer has even less of a chance.
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  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #15
    Re: Energy Star - Things Seem to Have Gone Terribly Wrong...

    I am not chastising energy star or any energy rating program, nor am I against criticizing it. What I don't want to do is the conversation to devolve into "the government is,,,,,," (insert adjective of your own political stripes).

    Do I think it dumb that a gasoline powered clock can get energy star rating? You be. But do I think by extension one can then conclude the government can never do anything right? (metaphorically!) NO. That, my friends is my point. Address Energy Star, or EPA but keep it in context if we can.
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #16
    Re: Energy Star - Things Seem to Have Gone Terribly Wrong...

    so far tony, it is you that keeps talking about government and to say they aren't doing their jobs is not a political statement, but more of an observed fact that this thread bears out. to be political it would've had to talk of a party or if reaching an agenda that a party has put forth that through it's criticism would've criticized that party. this is not the case here. even if it met those requirements in some cases it would be allowed here when it applied and energy star is a program that is applicable.
    if you're saying some in government are not doing their jobs right is not allowed pertaining to e star in your opinion then no discussion of the tax breaks or their criticisms good or bad are to be allowed either by your definition as then it pertains to being political by your definition, which is anything that pertains to the government is being political.
    a parabole might be just because you shorted your batteries and it arced (along with the fuse breaking i hope) does not mean you are talking about welders. if you want to continue your inquiry into the rules then do so in the proper section. just because i thought you had nerve enough to criticize us does not mean you are right.

    NO MORE ON IT HERE.
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  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #17
    Re: Energy Star - Things Seem to Have Gone Terribly Wrong...

    With all due respect Niel, I have no idea of what you are trying to say in your previous post.

    what it boils down to is let us run and moderate the forum. niel

    All I am saying is,, and I hope that we all try to keep on the proper side of that line! I just don't want any discussion to devolve into a political screaming match,, no matter who is right/wrong/involved etc.

    It did not happen and your concerns were noted on the first time you commented about it. niel

    If I have been somehow out of line in my comments,, then my apologies.

    don't sweat it and let it drop.     niel

    Tony

    PS I wasn't criticizing anyone in my initial comments, merely voicing my opinion about the slipper slope!
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  • audredger
    audredger Solar Expert Posts: 272 ✭✭
    #18
    Re: Energy Star - Things Seem to Have Gone Terribly Wrong...

    More grease for the slippery slope....
    I think that "we" need something like energy star. I think it needs to be a third party private enterprise much like UL. I believe, if it was kept to the "private" sector the accountability would me much better. It is my observation that, the "private" sector can and does more with less than the "public" sector.
    The question is, how do "we" make that happen?
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  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #19
    Re: Energy Star - Things Seem to Have Gone Terribly Wrong...

    The consumerist site has an article about this, this afternoon:
    http://consumerist.com/2010/04/energy-star-introduces-stricter-rules-in-attempt-to-prevent-cheating.html

    independent labs factor into it.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #20
    Re: Energy Star - Things Seem to Have Gone Terribly Wrong...

    gee, i'll bet there will be a large influx of new e star products this year trying to beat the 2011 deadline. i wonder if the requirements for independent lab confirmation will be required for already existing e star products?:confused:
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,891 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #21
    Re: Energy Star - Things Seem to Have Gone Terribly Wrong...

    The one interesting thing to me is they will do a top ten list for each category which will save me time going thru their lists.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • Windsun
    Windsun Solar Expert Posts: 1,164 ✭✭
    #22
    Re: Energy Star - Things Seem to Have Gone Terribly Wrong...

    Most companies DID play by the rules, but there were enough that did not to make the entire system suspect. More worrysome to me is what happened to the agency internally over the past 3-4 years to make it so easy to scam. :confused:
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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #23
    Re: Energy Star - Things Seem to Have Gone Terribly Wrong...

    don't know what is happening South of The 49 th, but up if it happened here, funding/staffing cutbacks would be the first thing I think about..
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
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  • russ
    russ Solar Expert Posts: 593 ✭✭
    #24
    Re: Energy Star - Things Seem to Have Gone Terribly Wrong...
    Dave Sparks wrote: »
    The one interesting thing to me is they will do a top ten list for each category which will save me time going thru their lists.

    At present the Energy Star lists can be downloaded in Excel format then you can sort however you want.
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,891 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #25
    Re: Energy Star - Things Seem to Have Gone Terribly Wrong...
    russ wrote: »
    At present the Energy Star lists can be downloaded in Excel format then you can sort however you want.

    But the data is corrupt as this thread is discussing. The article in Home Power magazine last month went thru alot of the problems and said that the new top ten list for each category will have real data to back up the claims.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • russ
    russ Solar Expert Posts: 593 ✭✭
    #26
    Re: Energy Star - Things Seem to Have Gone Terribly Wrong...

    But the data is corrupt as this thread is discussing. The article in Home Power magazine last month went thru alot of the problems and said that the new top ten list for each category will have real data to back up the claims.

    Not really - newly listed items will be subject to new reporting - old items İ doubt it. That would be a rather large task.

    Also it has been pointed out the 98% of the listings were OK.
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,891 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #27
    Re: Energy Star - Things Seem to Have Gone Terribly Wrong...

    http://toptenusa.org/default.htm
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • russ
    russ Solar Expert Posts: 593 ✭✭
    #28
    Re: Energy Star - Things Seem to Have Gone Terribly Wrong...

    Another NGO - someone needs a job? They do not mention who does the testing or the criteria to make the list.

    The only company on the list of supporters is PG&E - the remainder are eco outfits. Hopefuly the analysis of the efficiency of a unit will be based on it's own energy consumption and not some NGO criteria considering 'climate change' overall.

    We will see how it goes.
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