More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new battery?

abrockca

We just got in 12-S1380 batteries from Rolls Surrette. 1 of them had no SG when it arrived. We tested it before installing; none. SG pointer went straight down. (the others varied from 1.200 to 1.225)

After a day of charging, it has slightly moved to the very bottom of the bad range. We got less than 150 amp hours out of the batteries last night. (24 volt system.) We have them wired as a single bank.

Since it's the weekend, we haven't heard back from Surrette, but this is pretty disappointing. This is after we had a set of 8-S530 batteries (set up as 2 banks) from them that started failing after 18 months (first battery failed last May so we've spent a year fighting with those batteries & Surrette); maybe we were crazy to try Surrette again, but we were hoping that initial experience was just a fluke since in general they've gotten raves.

I personally found the tech staff not helpful at all. They ended up blaming it all on us overcharging; we agree by the end for the last few months we desperately pushed the charge up to the high end of the range trying to get the batteries to come back; we have not yet got a good answer as to why they started failing so fast when our settings were in their range before. Four of that initial bank always showed a fine SG, but they failed a capacity test miserably. (And yes, we watered them and EQ'd regularly)

Anyway, we're still working that issue with Surrette, trying to get some kind of compensation, but for today - anyone else have a battery arrive with zero SG? Is there any way to recover it or will we just have to get yet another from our dealer? Our dealer is 2 hours away, so they're getting real tired of making trips up to us with batteries.

By the way, the date code on some of the batteries is "2310" so guess that means these are from last summer. They don't all have date codes; we noticed this on some of the S530 replacements we got as well - they aren't all date-coded. Seems sloppy.

My solar guy will be working with Surrette as well on this latest issue but thought I'd post this out here in case there were any ideas. I'm trying to become better at this stuff.

Anne

BB.

Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

Welcome to the forum Anne. And I have moved your post to its own thread so we can better follow your installation/questions/issues.

Regarding the new batteries--Any that showed less than 75% state of charge (roughly at room temperature; less than 12.37 volts or less than ~ 1.215 – 1.235 s.g.).

Batteries can be stored for upwards of 18 months when "sealed" (before electrolyte is added)--But once electrolyte has been added, they need to be kept on a float charger, or recharged ~once per month... Storing a flooded cell for many months without charging will damage them.

As always, read the Battery FAQ's to get a handle on what you are dealing with:

Deep Cycle Battery FAQ
www.batteryfaq.org

At this point, something sure does not sound right at the battery distributer (at least) or where he got these replacement batteries from...

-Bill

niel

Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

maybe somebody failed to put the electrolyte into the battery and mistook water for it. a new battery with an sg of 1.0 would go back as being defective in my book.

abrockca

Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

There were three of the 12 that had less than 1.215 SG - two were 1.200, one was just over that - maybe 1.210? . Then we had 8 at 1.225 and then the one that registered zero.

I don't know when the electrolytes were added to the batteries; not sure if Surrette does that at the warehouse before shipping? that would be my guess.

At any rate, guess you're right - we have a dud battery. Will try to get Surrette to pay a delivery charge to the dealer this time. I know the dealer got the batteries last Wed and delivered them to us Thursday, so I don't think he's the one who is storing them.

Wish I had checked it before the delivery guy left

Anne

Photowhit

Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

If you purchased both sets from the same dealer, and the second set was flooded before you purchased, this I would assume since the dealer delievered them.

It's time to document every thing that has happened and start working on your small claims case. I can't imagine they delivered a 2nd set of batteries and not checked them for voltage and SG on delivery.

I'd also quit speaking with them directly and start speaking directly with the home office, something is seriously wrong. I personally would suspect the local dealer. I would almost always suspect a user problem, so if you have any charted use and charging.

My guess is they will inspect, then want to dump and refill with electrolite, this would not cut it for me...

abrockca

Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

oh believe me, we're talking with Surrette. Been talking with them since last fall when the first battery we replaced didn't fix things... Have not been happy with them, but we've been talking.

Tomorrow, when everyone's open again, we'll see how fast we can get a battery to replace the bad one since it doesn't seem worth trying to get it to work, based on all the comments here...

Anne

dwh

Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

BB. wrote: »

Regarding the new batteries--Any that showed less than 75% state of charge (roughly at room temperature; less than 12.37 volts or less than ~ 1.215 – 1.235 s.g.).

Um Bill? Where's the rest of that statement?

BB.

Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

My newish laptop keeps closing my firefox windows and dumping my half completed posts... That was the second or third time through.:grr:cry:

What you see is what you get.

-Bill

dwh

Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

My netbook is like that in Linux - the touchpad is super ultra sensitive so in Linux I have make sure to lift my right thumb so it never touches or else I get all sorts of whacky events.

Back in the day I would have hacked the driver to fix it...nowadays I just try to remember to keep my thumb up.

abrockca

Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

sorry for waiting so long to post the final resolution on this thread ...

The new battery arrived after a week; got installed; and now we finally have a fully working system. Yea! Battery dealer swore he had told someone to check all the batteries before the initial delivery, but he missed one. Dealer came up on Sat, their normal day off, because he didn't have anyone available to deliver it on Friday. Have to say, at that point we had been running the generator all night long for three nights because the 11 batteries we had just weren't holding capacity with the 12th bad one in the string, so I didn't have a lot of sympathy.

New battery is a different date code - much more recent - but hopefully that won't matter since the other batteries had just started being used.

Still haven't gotten Surrette to agree to replace the old remaining ones that started failing after 18 months. Will try one more time then pass them on to someone here who recycles them.

solorone

Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

Really surprised your having so much trouble with the Rolls Surrette products and company. When my batteries arrived 10 years ago, the pallet had been tipped over in transit, i did not discover this until we unloaded them at home and discovered the plastic wrapping very wet and acid levels low in cells.

Techs worked with me and we added acid twice over the first 1 to 4 years, and they replaced a cell under warranty. Oddly the shipping ticket had a notice on it in big red letters, that the carrier was in danger of losing Surretts business due to excessive damage, so I did look over the pallet very close, but missed the fluid, or it's significance, within the many layers plastic wrap. Techs later commented, that there not many shipping options out of Nova Scotia.

I am will be needing new batteries next year. I will follow your thread, as this may influence my consideration of another set of Rolls Surrettes.

Hope you get it worked out, and it may not hurt to send them a link to this thread.

abrockca

Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

you know, it's been that kind of year for us. We ordered two new Xantrex controllers; one of them arrived dead, and we're still trying to get an RMA number out of Xantrex. (We ordered through a third party, and they're the ones bugging Xantrex.)

I swear we're normally nice and polite with vendors, but somehow we're not getting the karma points this year!

Still searching around for the target sign that someone must have put on our house....

Anne

sub3marathonman

Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

abrockca wrote: »

We just got in 12-S1380 batteries from Rolls Surrette.

Since it's the weekend, we haven't heard back from Surrette, but this is pretty disappointing. This is after we had a set of 8-S530 batteries (set up as 2 banks) from them that started failing after 18 months (first battery failed last May so we've spent a year fighting with those batteries & Surrette); maybe we were crazy to try Surrette again, but we were hoping that initial experience was just a fluke since in general they've gotten raves.

I personally found the tech staff not helpful at all. They ended up blaming it all on us overcharging;

Anne

I don't think I would have gone back with Surrette after the first set failed after just 18 months and Surrette wasn't helpful.

And my experience with the tech staff was equally not helpful at all. They ended up blaming it all on me for undercharging. When it is my contention that the batteries were sitting at about 70% charged when I got them ("new" ) from a dealer, and had been discharged long enough to diminish their capacity.

There is no way to prove anything, there is no test equipment that doesn't cost $10K or so to check the battery, and Rolls/Surrette has "solved" the problem because I gave up.

Buy another set from them??? We'll see.

abrockca

Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

sounds typical - always the customer's fault, never the batteries. Not saying customers don't screw up; I treated my first set of batteries (Trojans) pretty badly - but they lasted longer than the Surrettes. I treated the Surrettes very nicely, and after 18 months - no capacity.

I only went with them again because my battery guy said their 2 volt batteries were easier to maintain than the Trojan equivalent. Plus, we ordered them just as I was starting the battle with Surrette so I wasn't totally annoyed with them yet....

I know some people have had very good experiences with Surrettes and their tech staff; in fact, that's one reason we initially just wanted to replace the 8 - we figured we just ended up with a bad batch but that most Surrettes were very good.

<soapbox> if solar technology connected to batteries is ever going to take off for the masses, batteries can't be so darn fragile </end soapbox>

We'll see what happens with this set. But if I'm having to buy batteries again in 2 years or less, they won't be Surrettes for sure. It may take me awhile, but eventually I learn...

Anne

SolaRevolution

Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

I'm a solar electrical contractor and I've had serous problems with 3 sets of Rolls Surrettes in the last year.

They were all made in the last half of 2010. I've had good luck with Rolls in many other similar and different systems. I don't know if it is just a temporary issue but they have vehemently denied having any problems with anyone else but me. :cool:

Right now I'm saying "Never again".
Their warranty has been a major selling point for me and my customers but it does not cover labor or shipping. With the multiple site visits and the time consuming test and charging strategies I am out many days and thousands of miles.

On two sets (S-530 and S-600) the batteries tested good on arrival. Good SGs. Good voltage. After a few months the capacity is noticeably decreassed. Then a few low SGs +/ 1200 and the rest very high +/- 1300. A load test (C-10) shows the voltage dropping off in less than an hour.

Rolls asked to ship them back. They reported severe overcharging (BS) and that I had voided the warranty by over tightening the bolts on the terminals because they could see indentations from the washers. They let me know how lucky I am that they were doing a courtesy replacement for me. And no, they had no explanation of how a solar system with a charge rate of 9% of the battery capacity could severly overcharge them. Nor could they explain how overtightening the terminals could cause this failure either.

On a set of KS25P the SG was low 1225 and would not rise above 1235 no matter what was done to charge them. After my customer and I worked with the techs by phone for several months Rolls finally authorized replacement.

My Labor. Their bad product.

I'm selling Trojans now. So far so good. They are comming out with higher ampacity cells now so I will not be needing Rolls Surrettes anyway.

What would it take to "severly overcharge" batteries in 4 months?

Cariboocoot

Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

SolaRevolution wrote: »

What would it take to "severely overcharge" batteries in 4 months?

A big array and an improperly set charge controller. Either going to too high an Absorb Voltage and/or maintaining it for too long. Equalization when not needed will do it too.

Frankly I think Surrette is full of it, judging by the other complaints we've seen here. Shipping dead batteries? Come on! No excuse for that. :grr FLA's can take quite a bit of "abuse" and not go dead for years; even the cheap warehouse brands. The failure of the batteries is one thing, but the failure of the company to own up is far worse.

I've always had good experience with the Trojan batteries. Might be buying some of the new series for myself this year.

abrockca

Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

Very interesting. My solar consultant has several installations of Rolls Surrettes that are doing great. My current installation was working fine once we replaced the 12th uncharged battery. We installed in May; date code is 2310 for those of the first 11 that had date codes; the replacement one was considerably newer, a date in 2011 (but can't find where I wrote it down right now). So - 31st week of 2010. - last half of 2010

The SG was low when they first came, but we've been working on bringing it up; half of them are now at 1.250 and the other half are at 1.265, so we're almost all the way there (Rolls said to aim for 1.265).

Just recently, I've been getting that lack of capacity you are seeing - at first, I'd be at 220 amp hours in the morning and 24.9 volts; then, within 10 min, voltage would drop to 23 or less volts (at which point I'd start the generator). I didn't increase the load or anything at that point; I didn't have anything extra running. So I started running the generator the evening before for an hour thinking I was expecting too much at 220 AH used. NOW I'm getting the drop off at 155 to 160 amp hours. Again, nothing added to the load. We pull around 12 to 13 amps during the night; if the frig defrost kicks in, it goes to 18 amp hours. But regardless of what it's pulling - 12 or 18 - it starts dropping well before it should. (Last couple days it was 165 or so; today it was 155 amp hours accumulated.)

My consultant just suggested tightening the connections on the battery terminals, so we did that. He also suggested doing an SG in the morning before they start charging to see if one of the batteries looks funky then. He thinks either bad connection or bad battery. Poor guy... he has sure been trying to get us up and running! And again, he has other installs where this isn't happening. Guess another load test would be the next step....

After my last rounds with Surette, I just don't want to go through it again ... We followed their charging guidelines strictly. When we needed to increase absorb and voltage to bring them up from the low initial SG we got the numbers from them. No battery, unless massively abused, should be dying after five months. And we didn't massively abuse them!

Now I'm wondering if tightening the connections will void the warranty<sigh>.

I know many many people are happy with their Surettes. But they just don't seem to work for me. My Trojans, which I DID abuse, lasted much better.

anyway, thanks for your post; good to know it's not just me, but I wish it wasn't any of us....

Anne

Cariboocoot

Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

Have to point out that Surrettes never used to have problems. There are lots of them out there that have been working fine for years. These troubles all seem to be within the last year or two.

I also have to say that in 40 years of putting batteries of all sorts into many different applications I had never seen any company ship/sell dead batteries until now. Not even the cheap ones. I think Surrette better wake up fast.

abrockca

Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

to be fair to Surrette - the dead battery I got may have been due to my battery dealer; it looks like his workers forgot to add the acid or whatever they do to it to the battery... Was still very annoying!

and I don't think my last set should have died so quickly, and certainly the current set should not be losing capacity this quickly. I'll keep my fingers crossed that it was a loose connection, although none of them seemed very loose.

BB.

Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

I am a big believer in debugging before cleaning connections and tightening bolts.

Put some loads or charging current on the bank and take out the dmm looking for voltage drops/rises. And get a DC current clamp meter to make sure current is flowing properly through all the parallel connections.

Changing, cleaning, and tightening connections first hides any defects/problems that may be present. Also, you do not know if you fixed a problem or not.

-Bill

Dave Angelini

Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

I am thinking that many of these problems are traced to the sub-tier Surrette dealers. I am not saying that it is not Surrettes fault because they need to make sure that there name is not being damaged. I have just stopped telling anyone to buy from a dealer that is not on Surrettes list of go to guys. Pay the shipping from a known source.

This is bad to have to do as one is giving up on local sources that are an advantage with heavy batteries. It is not a good thing!

Blackcherry04

Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

Dave Sparks wrote: »

I am thinking that many of these problems are traced to the sub-tier Surrette dealers. I am not saying that it is not Surrettes fault because they need to make sure that there name is not being damaged. I have just stopped telling anyone to buy from a dealer that is not on Surrettes list of go to guys. Pay the shipping from a known source.

This is bad to have to do as one is giving up on local sources that are an advantage with heavy batteries. It is not a good thing!

You could be on to something. I know that with Gill Aircraft Battery's if you use any electrolyte besides 1.285 to activate them it will void the warranty. Some batteries meant for export ( Gray Market ) are shipped dry and and most large domestic batteries, who knows what they end up being filled with.

Dave Angelini

Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

BB. wrote: »

I am a big believer in debugging before cleaning connections and tottering tightening bolts.

Put some loads or charging current on the bank and take out the dmm looking for voltage drops/rises. And get a DC current clamp meter to make sure current is flowing properly through all the parallel connections.

Changing, cleaning, and tightening connections first hides any defects/problems that may be present. Also, you do not know if you fixed a problem or not.

-Bill

When you live off the battery for your power source, you pretty much know the next day.... sorry Bill, could not resist!

BB.

Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

I understand Dave,

In the end, I found and fixed many problems on various power systems by looking/measuring/looking for hot spots instead of just replacing parts and cleaning connections.

As a design engineer, I was doing failure analysis to try and make sure that type of failure did not happen again--or at least know what to look for so the next fix was quick and/or could be done by somebody in the field.

-Bill

Dave Angelini

Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

I know you get it but I was just looking for some humor in a world that just seems beyond repair. You were it!

At least these failures of batteries are not erratic intermittents. It can always get worse!

abrockca

Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

Dave Sparks wrote: »

I know you get it but I was just looking for some humor in a world that just seems beyond repair. You were it!

At least these failures of batteries are not erratic intermittents. It can always get worse!

"Could be worse... could be raining" (Young Frankenstein)

Sorry, just couldn't resist.

Now of course I'll start getting erratic intermittents on my batteries...thanks a lot for suggesting that to them...

Tightening bolts didn't work; SGs in the morning, before charging, while lower, of course, than after they are in float are all fairly consistent. Because of my lack of experience, think I'll be calling in someone to walk through the system and test every connection and every battery and figure out what it is.

I fought for almost a year with my last set of batteries and their fading capacity. I can't do it again. I should be getting a hell of a lot of amp hours out of these new batteries; they shouldn't be dying this soon; if it's something in the system besides the batteries I need to get it figured out and fixed. We replaced both charge controllers at the time we replaced the batteries, the only thing left is the inverter but I don't want to guess anymore. I want to know what's wrong.

ok, sorry, I'm venting. It just shouldn't be this hard.

Anne

Dave Angelini

Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

Batteries are the biggest failure item in any system. Any new battery should last three years if basic parrameters are set and met. If a battery system is not working right from the start a failure report to the manufacturer and the dealer should be filed.

It is expensive, but if you are offgrid you should buy another set and sue for relief on the old set. I am sure the new Trojan high capacity cells would be looking good to someone in your shoes.;)

abrockca

Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

Dave Sparks wrote: »

Batteries are the biggest failure item in any system. Any new battery should last three years if basic parrameters are set and met. If a battery system is not working right from the start a failure report to the manufacturer and the dealer should be filed.

It is expensive, but if you are offgrid you should buy another set and sue for relief on the old set. I am sure the new Trojan high capacity cells would be looking good to someone in your shoes.;)

Believe me, I would love to sue - except lawsuits make all sides miserable. I've arranged for another consultant to come out and do some indepth testing for me. Hoping another set of eyes will see something. Maybe there is something in the system that is causing problems - odd wiring or odd setting or something. If it is one or more of the batteries... well, I was going to make a joke here about air dropping them on to the Surrette facility, but in this day and age guess I better not...

And yeah, next set of batteries will NOT be Surrettes. Wondering how pricey those forklift batteries really are... .

Dave Angelini

Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

You can sue for relief without a lawsuit BTW.

solarvic

Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

Hello ann. Don,t know what you paid for those batterys but I bet more than what a forktruck battery cost. Our host sells them and I know crown batterys are good as they had one many years where I retired from. i am doing a backup system and figured The fork truck battery has 4 good points I like. 1ST you don,t have to buy all them cables to interconnect them with, so won,t have all those connections that can cause problems. 2ND.cheaper for 1 battery than a series of them. 3RD. They have a 20 year life expectancy. And in most cases only 12 cells to watch but with the kind of batterys you have you only have 12 cells. 4THIf one cell goes bad you can get a cell to replace the one that goes bad. Worst point they weigh a lot so you have to be able to move them. In my case, no problem as I have a tractor to move it. :Dsolarvic:D

abrockca

Re: More weird battery problems with Rolls Surrette batteries--SG = 1.000 on new batt

Solarvic, the weight is a huge issue (although I'm not sure how much they weigh, to be honest) - our batteries are in the space under the house, it's a small door, and definitely no way to get a tractor under there.

Will I get desperate enough to build an outside watertight enclosure to hold some forklift batteries and connect them in? anything is possible! But since I'm on my 3rd set of batteries in 6 years (one set Trojan, two sets Surrettes) I'd like to get the current set working for at least the amount of years they're warrantied for. After that, who knows? Maybe lithium batteries will finally be ready for prime-time...

But thanks for the advice!