Can Evergreen Solar Be Our Sputnik Moment?

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1332-can-evergreen-solar-be-our-sputnik-moment.jpg Each year, when writing the CE Views column immediately after the annual Clean-Tech Investor Summit (co-produced by International Business Forum and Clean Edge), I've been struck by how it always seems to coincide with a major event with deep implications for the clean-tech industry. Usually this has come on the political stage: President Obama's inauguration, the balance-tipping election of Massachusetts Republican Senator Scott Brown, or even former President George W. Bush's State of the Union assertion that we are "addicted to oil."

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  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Can Evergreen Solar Be Our Sputnik Moment?

    i'm not sure of what is meant by a sputnik moment, but reading this dismays me. it is sending a different message to me that profits are the only important thing to them and there's nothing they won't do to get them including taking federal monies and then run to cheap labor. there is something very wrong when a company that started here with an innovation winds up being cutthroat for $. i can't say it is because of labor costs that they ran because it was profitable and they got $ from the government which offset labor costs by leaps and bounds. my guess is they were lured with more $ to leave and is a kind of playing both sides of the fence type of a deal. i realize they allied with a german company years ago, but that didn't cut jobs or quality for profits as the alliance put them further ahead than ether alone added together were. what i now see is a disconnect with the real issues of keeping quality and a good relationship with people, be they employees or customers, as they go for profits. i would have believed otherwise if they only were going to add more production capacity by opening a faciility in china to add to their present facilities.
    in my opinion they have lowered themselves and lost a bit of respect from me. i admit i didn't read all of the article, but only because what i read disgusted me.
  • XRingerXRinger Solar Expert Posts: 529 ✭✭✭
    Re: Can Evergreen Solar Be Our Sputnik Moment?

    Can Evergreen Solar Be Our dead canary moment?
    IMHO, it's just one of many dead canary moments.

    I'm pretty sure that our 'government' bureaucracy will never be able
    to help us fight job loss to cheap labor sources around the world.

    Almost all of our government employees are only interested in enriching themselfs.
    They could care less what happens to the taxpayers.
    Even if we become too poor to pay taxes, they can always print more money.

    The system is broken. You can be sure, anything the government does
    will only worsen our problems.
    (Like corn ethanol, oil drilling bans etc).


    I think it's pretty funny the TSA wants to become unionized.
    Aren't they surly enough already? :grr

    Dateline 2013: TSA union wants to be paid in gold bars. Or else they let bombs aboard your flight!

    Yeah, broken..
  • LucManLucMan Solar Expert Posts: 223 ✭✭✭
    Re: Can Evergreen Solar Be Our Sputnik Moment?

    Something is wrong when a US company can take government money for startup and then pack up and move production to another country.
    Another corporation that took our money and ran. Seems there is something criminal about that.:grr
    Just my opinion
  • XRingerXRinger Solar Expert Posts: 529 ✭✭✭
    Re: Can Evergreen Solar Be Our Sputnik Moment?
    LucMan wrote: »
    Something is wrong when a US company can take government money for startup and then pack up and move production to another country.
    Another corporation that took our money and ran. Seems there is something criminal about that.:grr
    Just my opinion

    I'm not sure, but I think our Governor plans to keep sending them money in China.
    Since they've already got it in the budget.. :roll:

    It would not surprise me a bit, to find out they were planing this move years ago.

    I've been wondering if they are going to take all their manufacturing equipment with them.?.


    Anyways, who's next? A123 Systems?
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,180 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Can Evergreen Solar Be Our Sputnik Moment?

    without getting into politics, IMHO this is just another move that strengthens my belief that the Globalization of the worlds economy is being led by ALL the leaders of ALL countries after having been conned by the major corporations of the world into blind faith in (the new messiah of) Free Trade.. Evidence of this is in the NAFTA and its predecessor the US/Canada FTA, where a corporation can sue one or more of the governments if they pass any laws that impact the Corporations profits.
    Proof of this is in the banning of gasoline additives MMT by Canada and later MTBE by California. The former was settled by a $20 mm payment and the latter was won by California.
    http://www.canadians.org/media/trade/1998/04-Nov-98.html
    http://www.globalexchange.org/campaigns/rulemakers/collier061899.html

    from the later link:
    Under NAFTA's vaguely written investor rights provisions, companies are entitled to compensation for "expropriation" -- which may be interpreted as any government action, including health and safety regulations, that has the effect of reducing a company's profits. (emphasis added)

    As the Joe Friday in Dragnet said "just the facts ma'am..."
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 29,981 admin
    Re: Can Evergreen Solar Be Our Sputnik Moment?

    MTBE was a huge nightmare here in California (and other states too).

    Doing engineering by passing laws--Placing an "oxygenate" in gasoline to cause cars to run leaner... Reduces hydrocarbon but can increase oxides of nitrogen. And is totally useless for modern fuel injected cars with oxygen sensors (they just make the mixture richer to meet the programmed fuel / air ratio).

    As I remember, it was oil companies that wanted to put MTBE in gasoline (more profit) in the first place.

    A major problem is that gas stations leak lots of gasoline into ground water (even with double wall tanks and fuel pipes)--which was bad enough.

    But, the gasoline tended to float on the water table and stay (relatively) local to the station (yes, there was 10,000's of gallons of gasoline under some of these stations).

    However, when MTBE was added, it made the gasoline somewhat soluble in water (there have been reports of people complaining about MTBE fumes collecting at some service stations in cold/calm wind conditions--don't know the details). And now we have many areas in the state with ground water sources contaminated and shut down. Even knowing the issue, the state still took years before they banned MTBE... For all I can find out, they still may be putting MTBE (and other ethers) into our fuel.

    If the oil companies are prepared to spend billions to clean up the water from incompetent handling of their products--perhaps we can talk. (of course, doing something with the former/current politicians that created this mess in the first place would be nice too).

    The fuel cost went up to put MTBE in our fuel, and they went up again to take MTBE out... Win / Win situation here.:roll:

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: Can Evergreen Solar Be Our Sputnik Moment?

    In this country we're just putting signs up at the borders:

    Welcome To Canada - Bienvenue Canada
    (A subsidiary of Shanghaied Manufacturing)
    (Une filiale de la fabrication c'a été Shanghaied)
  • SteveKSteveK Solar Expert Posts: 277 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Can Evergreen Solar Be Our Sputnik Moment?
    XRinger wrote: »
    I'm not sure, but I think our Governor plans to keep sending them money in China.
    Since they've already got it in the budget.. :roll:

    It would not surprise me a bit, to find out they were planing this move years ago.

    I've been wondering if they are going to take all their manufacturing equipment with them.?.


    Last I heard in December the buzz was only R&D to remain in Fort Devens. I drive past their Marlborough MA location(s) almost daily. Hardly seems worth $110 million dollars of MA taxpayers dollars to keep that small operation going here. Not enough jobs IMO.

    Next up? Nexamp maybe? They landed some big state jobs lately....

    Evergreen HQ is only 7 miles from me.....I refuse to buy their stuff even so. There was incentive to do so too. I forget what it is called but something like "The incestuous entitlement tax break" or something.
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,180 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Can Evergreen Solar Be Our Sputnik Moment?
    SteveK wrote: »

    Evergreen HQ is only 7 miles from me.....I refuse to buy their stuff even so. .


    Steve, is that because of principle or is there some issue with their product?

    With their panels @ ~$2.00 / watt, they are a good value.

    E
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • SteveKSteveK Solar Expert Posts: 277 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Can Evergreen Solar Be Our Sputnik Moment?
    westbranch wrote: »
    Steve, is that because of principle or is there some issue with their product?

    With their panels @ ~$2.00 / watt, they are a good value.

    E

    No, as far as I know they are a top notch product. Principle only here. I worked in manufacturing as a process engineer a while ago. Manufacturing got shipped off to Malaysia and China and I was left with a bunch of $900 shoes walking around in their cubicles all wringing their hands at the prospect of more money in bonuses...while Mary and Ruth had to go on the Doles to make ends meet.


    I went China with my panels, UL Listed and are overperformers so far. CETC got no subsidies from me or mine. They build a product, sell it, free market at it's finest. I got no beef with China, it's the bean counters that care about raping and pillaging the USA I take exception to.
  • XRingerXRinger Solar Expert Posts: 529 ✭✭✭
    Re: Can Evergreen Solar Be Our Sputnik Moment?
    SteveK wrote: »
    clip-clipity

    Evergreen HQ is only 7 miles from me.....I refuse to buy their stuff even so. There was incentive to do so too. I forget what it is called but something like "The incestuous entitlement tax break" or something.

    LOL!!! It's the principle of the thing? (How much did they donate to the gov)?

    I've looked at their $/watt in the past, and they seemed over-priced to me.
    (My last Ebay buy was 2 Canadian Solar panels at less than $2 per watt shipped).

    So, the Evergreen products didn't get my interest until now.
    I'm wondering if they are going to have a local clearance sale?
    Or, did I already miss it?
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,180 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Can Evergreen Solar Be Our Sputnik Moment?

    Xringer, I know you/we can get them (Evergreen) right now, delivered for $2/w
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • SteveKSteveK Solar Expert Posts: 277 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Can Evergreen Solar Be Our Sputnik Moment?
    XRinger wrote: »
    LOL!!! It's the principle of the thing? (How much did they donate to the gov)?

    I've looked at their $/watt in the past, and they seemed over-priced to me.
    (My last Ebay buy was 2 Canadian Solar panels at less than $2 per watt shipped).

    So, the Evergreen products didn't get my interest until now.
    I'm wondering if they are going to have a local clearance sale?
    Or, did I already miss it?

    Yes on principle. That gimme gimme attitude needs to end. Patrick is a hostage to green technology and feels hard pressed to satisfy the green gods....so it appears.

    And from now on it's only Ford for me if a US made auto/truck.

    I've heard tell that if you dress-up in camo and face paint, and spy around the perimeter of Fort Devens, there are secret stashes of discrepant material buried in caves there. A stockpile of counterfeit Quan as well....shhhh!
  • XRingerXRinger Solar Expert Posts: 529 ✭✭✭
    Re: Can Evergreen Solar Be Our Sputnik Moment?
    westbranch wrote: »
    Xringer, I know you/we can get them (Evergreen) right now, delivered for $2/w

    That sounds good, but I wonder if it's one of those minimum of 50 things..

    I was thinking of buying two more CS6P-200 panels off Ebay at maybe $1.76/w,
    if they would take an offer of $300 each (they did before)..
    http://ecorenovator.org/forum/solar-power/1244-cheap-panel.html

    I'm very pleased with the quality and performance of these CS6P-200 panels.
    If I had the money and a good location to install them, I would buy a bunch..

    I was thinking that I could add one on each side of the ground mount rack.
    Might need to rework the rear support. Maybe use two supports.

    shoveledout.jpg
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,180 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Can Evergreen Solar Be Our Sputnik Moment?

    for me in Canada, minimum of 10. 12v @ 205 w ;) plus duties & taxes
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
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