Truck tool box as battery box...

divonbriesen

I'm working on a community college project (http://ecobox.me) and using a lot of different components that the engineering department bought on a grant before I got hold of it.

We have these 2 midnight solar battery boxes- sheet metal, screwed together - I think they are kludgy, in design, shape, and everything else. I've got 4 102amp hour batteries in one at the moment (I think that's the size) and another one empty, waiting for me to get some other ducks in a row before I put in the batteries. The size is all wrong- so I have to mount the batteries end to end instead of side to side, which means longer (supa thick 3# maybe?) cables. On top of that it's hard to tighten and check out connections, since it's all surrounded by metal, and so on.

I've decided to buy a diamond plate toolbox at home depot for about $250 - it's the kind that goes in a truck behind the cab, but does not overhang the edge (so its a regular rectangle). Ive checked the dimensions and it looks like i could nicely fit all batteries side by side (want to have 4 strings of 24v) and have nice clean easy access from above (hydraulic lid, which makes a nice bench when closed). Easy to show by just opening lid, and easy to tighten and all that by having unfettered top access.

My thinking was to drill one or two 2" holes on each side and vent them. The current boxes simply have louvres- but anything we do is sitting with residential space.

Are there any reasons why doing this is a bad idea?
Any gotchas?
Do I have to vent to the outside, or is a vent into the living space OK?
Would I need a fan, or just make sure the hole(s) are at the high point in the box?
Is there such a thing as grounding a box? (the current boxes don't seem to have anything built-in for grounding)
If I do this is there any reason to elevate the batteries slightly (i.e. on some 2x4's) or can they go right onto the aluminum?

It looks something like this: http://www.homedepot.com/Tools-Hardware-Tool-Storage/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xh9Zarix/R-100598326/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053 (but I can't find the actual one I saw in the store). Even with the slope at the bottom the batteries should fit flat on the very bottom- but I still feel like I should elevate them with a board or 2 along there.

Feedback welcome, especially the kind that'll keep me from blowing up.

d.i.

ps- according to the manual, you should always wear a face shield when messing with batteries. rather than asking if one SHOULD, do you really?

FWIW I look away when adding air to my tires... saw what a tire blowing up can do once and it gives me the heebie jeebies... but i still don't wear goggles to put air in my tires.

vcallaway

Re: Truck tool box as battery box...

I always wear safety glasses when working with batteries. Especially when topping off the water.

Is this box going to be mounted indoors? You mentioned residential space in the post. If so you need to make sure your vents go outside. Also make sure you have an airtight seal on the lid.

I remember seeing online where someone built a battery box of wood and used it inside a cabin as a window seat. He simply vented to the outside wall and sealed the inside of the box.

I would NOT ground the box. A loose + battery cable hitting the side of the box will spark if the box is grounded. Better to have it isolated if you ask me.

Also, wear gloves and rubber soled shoes when working on the batteries. I received a bit of a jolt when I went out in the middle of the night to check connections barefoot. Got a pretty good tingle just touching the + cable. Lesson learned.

Dave Angelini

Re: Truck tool box as battery box...

If this is residential you could be liable if there is a fire! Batteries of this type should not be in metal boxes! The acid needs to be contained if there is a leak from a cracked battery case.

Ask the building department for guidance or if this is at a Community College there must be someone in maintenance responsible for safety and hazardous material. Good Luck!

BB.

Re: Truck tool box as battery box...

Aluminum Box + Battery Electrolyte + Battery Cables is bad news--Don't do it.

My chemistry was 30-40 years ago--Thanks to the Internet:

2Al + 3H2SO4 --> 3H2 + Al2(SO4)3

You will be generating lots of Hydrogen gas in a spill, and with electrical cables to provide arcs (cable fails, people working around box)--you pretty much have a good reason to wear that face shield.

You only have one set of eyes... And Acid burns are not pretty (or from fire either).

-Bill

solar_dave

Re: Truck tool box as battery box...

How about one of the ABS ones they sell instead.

mike95490

Re: Truck tool box as battery box...

I think rubbermaid has a plastic patio bench seat with "storage" under it, and some have used those as battery boxes with success.

divonbriesen

Re: Truck tool box as battery box...

Thanks for the info guys-

Now i'm bumming... i thought I had an elegant solution. In fact I almost picked up the box yesterday.

So I'm guessing the midnight solar box I have is not ideal either - it's steel, and painted, so that might address some of this.

The project is to build a suitable residence for 2 inside the shipping container- so i'm hoping to use the box as furniture as well- but we need to make it easy to teach at the same time (i.e. show people how it's wired). A plastic box will look pretty ghetto compared to a diamond-plate metal box.

Would your answers be any different if I asked about the same box, but painted black, instead of unpainted chrome aluminum?

Does it matter that these batteries are sealed?
Would it matter if I coated the bottom, or used that shower rubber mat underlayment to create a basin along the bottom and up the sides?

Here's a shot of the setup (remember, it's for teaching, so more obvious and out there than normal) and you can see the corner of one of the boxes in it. This is in the main living area:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/divb/5010787558/

here's a shot of the overall project, before i added 2 more solar panels: http://www.flickr.com/photos/divb/4897041398/in/set-72157624610877817/

Thanks everyone!

d.i.

solar_dave

Re: Truck tool box as battery box...

divonbriesen wrote: »

Thanks for the info guys-

Now i'm bumming... i thought I had an elegant solution. In fact I almost picked up the box yesterday.

So I'm guessing the midnight solar box I have is not ideal either - it's steel, and painted, so that might address some of this.

The project is to build a suitable residence for 2 inside the shipping container- so i'm hoping to use the box as furniture as well- but we need to make it easy to teach at the same time (i.e. show people how it's wired). A plastic box will look pretty ghetto compared to a diamond-plate metal box.

Would your answers be any different if I asked about the same box, but painted black, instead of unpainted chrome aluminum?

Does it matter that these batteries are sealed?
Would it matter if I coated the bottom, or used that shower rubber mat underlayment to create a basin along the bottom and up the sides?

Here's a shot of the setup (remember, it's for teaching, so more obvious and out there than normal) and you can see the corner of one of the boxes in it. This is in the main living area:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/divb/5010787558/

here's a shot of the overall project, before i added 2 more solar panels: http://www.flickr.com/photos/divb/4897041398/in/set-72157624610877817/

Thanks everyone!

d.i.

So face the ABS truck box with some diamond plate,
Make sure the container is air tight and well vented to the outside. Hydrogen gas is nasty stuff.

solarix

Re: Truck tool box as battery box...

If you use any box that is metallic - with batteries inside, over time it will corrode like you can't believe. There are a variety of large plastic storage chests available locally if you look around (try the big box stores -ha). They tend to be cheezy and cheap though (or with cracks in the floor - you need to be able to contain the acid) so be careful. I've even gone so far as to build my own battery box out of 1/4" PVC sheet and PVC cement.

monoloco

Re: Truck tool box as battery box...

I don't see why you couldn't just line the inside of the diamond plate box with some 1/4" or 3/8" plywood.

BB.

Re: Truck tool box as battery box...

You might also look at fish pond liner... pretty nice stuff. However, you need to check its resistance to electrolyte.

Here is a thread about acid resistance of various materials.

-Bill

dwh

Re: Truck tool box as battery box...

I would just build a box out of wood. You can make it look nice, it won't cost much, it can do double-duty as a bench and it's non-conductive.


It seems to me though that you've got conflicting goals for the project. One the one hand you are making a teaching tool, on the other hand your web site says you are striving for "good design" and an easily deployed housing solution.

I have thought about this some in the past, and here are some of my thoughts on the subject. Might give you some ideas.

What I came up with, was to divide the box at one end (probably the end with the doors). Say the box is 20' long - the living area is 17' and the "utility" area is 3'. You put all the equipment - electrical panel, water heater, air conditioning etc. in that one end, and have it accessible from the outside (probably facing the breaker box inward for access from the living area).

When closed up, it's just a container on a trailer with nothing hanging out anywhere, and when deployed it's easy to access the utility gear. Assuming for the moment that the unit is used for temporary housing for disaster relief. It won't be used as a "green" housing unit and many of them need to be deployed in a hurry. You place the units in rows, with the "utility" ends facing a common "alley". You can then quickly and easily connect water, power and sewer to them by running it along that alley.

Sewage will be a problem, so they could alternatively be setup with a holding tank for waste which could be emptied by a pumper truck running down the alley. The waste tank would also be in the utility closet end of the unit. With that sort of setup, they could be set directly onto leveled ground. If they were elevated like yours is, then you could put a waste storage tank underneath instead for increased capacity.

For temporary housing, they could just as easily have fresh water tanks that could also be filled by trucks running down the alley.

By standardizing on that sort of design, it could be used for units of any size - 20', 30' or 40' and mass conversion would be straightforward.


For a battery powered unit, putting the batteries inside the living area is not a great idea if they are vented batteries. It can be done, if there is adequate ventilation, but that brings problems of insulating the living area. Better to divide the container at one end, and put the batteries and other utility equipment in that end, and you can vent that compartment all you need without compromising the insulation of the living area.

The overhanging roof you have is fine for a permanent unit, but it's not practical for a portable unit that has to move down the road on a trailer.

A portable, self-contained unit has basically the same issues as an RV; limited roof space for solar and limited storage for fresh water and waste.

Waste water can be used for irrigation, but not if it contains sewage (or chemicals). Composting toilets are maintenance intensive, and often don't work well without a heat source, which consumes electricity. There is an incinerating toilet which produces sterile ash, but the thing consumes a large amount of power - something like 1kwh per use and it uses specially made paper bowl liners.

For disaster relief, it might be better to not include toilets at all. In that case, you could either use porta-potti units, or design a container conversion with say 8 or 10 "restrooms" with toilets and showers in them and deploy one in every "block" of living units.

Food is another problem. The PV system and batteries could probably handle a small refrigerator, but I doubt that it would provide enough power to also cook using electricity. Now what? Again, for disaster relief, that can be handled with centralized food preparation, but for an off-grid "green" unit, you have to address the issue in the unit itself. Many off-gridders end up using propane for cooking and/or running propane refrigerators.


Looking at your list of proposed uses, I come to this basic question; Is there a grid or not? If there is, then there is no need for solar. If there is no grid, and the unit is permanently installed, then you have a cabin. If there is no grid and the unit is portable, then you've got an RV.

All of these scenarios have their own issues which have been addressed fairly extensively, and many of the problems already solved.

One great resource, with loads of great ideas are "bus conversion" web sites. Those people have tried literally everything.

Container conversion is already a large global business so there are a lot of great ideas out there. Here's a site with some decent links:

http://www.conexconnection.com/

BB.

Re: Truck tool box as battery box...

Regarding Battery "Box"... Perhaps you would want to simply use a steel rack to mount the battery bank and then shield with with Lexan (hinged, bolted, etc.)... People can see what is going on, but be protected from the batteries.

Also, as you demonstrate various tasks (measuring specific gravity, filling cells, using a clamp on current meter, how to safely work with tape wrapped tools around high current batteries, etc.)--the exposed area will be a much better teaching aid.

-Bill

divonbriesen

Re: Truck tool box as battery box...

BB. wrote: »

Regarding Battery "Box"... Perhaps you would want to simply use a steel rack to mount the battery bank and then shield with with Lexan (hinged, bolted, etc.)... People can see what is going on, but be protected from the batteries.

Also, as you demonstrate various tasks (measuring specific gravity, filling cells, using a clamp on current meter, how to safely work with tape wrapped tools around high current batteries, etc.)--the exposed area will be a much better teaching aid.

-Bill

Actually I don't think we'll ever get that far- these are sealed batteries (will they ever leak?) and I'd be surprised (and impressed) if the program ever went into that level of detail (though it's a cool idea i'll pass around).

I'd think that lexan over a rack would not be airtight- unless you got pretty hard core with silicone and such...

Basically i'm looking for a nice affordable solution that'll replace what i have now, and allow me to not sacrifice the whole space, and when i give tours, pop up a lid and say, "ok guys, how are these batteries configured?"

di

divonbriesen

Re: Truck tool box as battery box...

BB. wrote: »

You might also look at fish pond liner... pretty nice stuff. However, you need to check its resistance to electrolyte.

Here is a thread about acid resistance of various materials.

-Bill

Bill- so clue me in on this battery thing- the more i read, the more it feels like witchcraft... i actually teach web design for a living- this is a side project i try to get to during the week. It's especially challenging because i'm learning about it all at once (from rainwater to composting toilets to batteries) and there's just not enough time.

I believe these batteries are gel/sealed. Will they ever leak? If they do, is that a sign to get rid of them?

In another post you gave a laundry list of how to make your batteries last (or someone did... .losing track) and involved things like don't discharge fully, keep at 80%, etc.. etc... I should check the manuals, but do most inverters shut themselves down when the batteries get low, or will they suck them dry? What is low for a 24v system, anyway?

Am i right in presuming you cant check gravity in sealed cells?

I'm planning 4 strings of 2 batteries but just read someone saying never do more than 2 parallel with batteries (was it you?) - can anybody chime in?

A water tower would be so much easier, LOL!

d.i.

ps- this probably deserves a new thread... sigh...

BB.

Re: Truck tool box as battery box...

I would not aim for air tight--Just good ventilation... Hydrogen will rise and trap in pockets up high.

You are correct that sealed AGM and such batteries will not vent in normal operation, but during over charging and as they fail with age, planning for safe venting is always a good idea.

-Bill

divonbriesen

Re: Truck tool box as battery box...

dwh-

Thanks for your reply-

you've touched on a whole bunch of things, and at the moment, I probably shouldn't try to address them all, but here are a few:

Off grid- that's the goal with this prototype. I'd like for the costs to be around $15k, so with labor of $10k they could be produced for under $30k. I've learned a lot but it's slow going.

No connections to the grid- in or out. That means no water, sewer, electric or gas. No attachments into the ground, which means no septic, underground storage, outhouses, etc..

The goal is for 2 able adults to set it up or tear it down for shipping in 2 days. I've disassembled the roof in a couple hours. The roof is critical for keeping the sun off the box, and when oriented in a better location should keep the sun from hitting the southern face during the summer, but allow for passive heating in the winter.

Toilet will have to be dry/composting- most likely clevis multrum type with urine separation, or home grown (starting with humanure perhaps- lovable loo- and improving a bit)

in a more production unit i agree with you it makes sense to isolate the systems- but since the school is funding, and we have to justify it as a teaching lab more than a prototype for future productions, I have to walk that line. We are a school after all. If I had to do it again, I'd start with a 20' and do many things differently- but i'm learning (how to cut, weld, bolt, etc...).

I imagine the unit will eventually have about 1-1.5KW in panels- currently just under 400w... cooking would be microwave and hot plate only.

I'd love to know about a super efficient heatpump if any of you want to clue me in (like the dude in idaho...nice site, BTW). The biggest challenge is going to be the HVAC- since it gets pretty hot here, and reasonably could- whereas in other climates one could focus on one or the other.

the RV example is the closest- but the RV's i'm familiar with are uncomfortable for tall people, poorly built (i.e. weak walls and insulation), expensive, and have tiny bathrooms. I'm 6' 6" and it ain't happening. There are lots of horror stories about trailers after katrina in New Orleans-

But using recycled containers you get a lot of the initial work done up front with the structure and strenght- but there are still many many issues, not the least of which is zoning/code, which is already problematic for us.

Ironically we may end up like the earthship guy- able to help people in the 3rd world without being able to help people here.

Ultimately my goal has less to do with containers and more to do with the off-grid concepts- i'm particularly interested though in semi-permanent housing - domes, tents, containers, caves, warehouses- and what you need to set them up temporarily to live comfortably.

I'm sure i'm preaching to the choir when i suggest that we all live well beyond what we need in terms of consumption - in particular when it comes to energy and water.

d.i.

ps- great site. I've bookmarked it, and will spend more time on it later, I hope.

BB.

Re: Truck tool box as battery box...

So far, for production A/C suitable for a Off-Grid system... The Sanyo Mini-Split (and other mfg. of similar equipment) seems to be about the best A/C (or Heat Pump version) going right now.

A couple of other threads to review:

More panels & window AC or efficient mini split AC?
Is Running and Air Conditioner possible with solar power?
smallest, most efficient A/C ?

More than likely, such a system, long term, would needs a fair amount of solar panels...

Obviously, insulation and passive control of shading/heating is also very important.

-Bill

n3qik

Re: Truck tool box as battery box...

With all of the other suggestion, I will add. Get your wiring up to code !!! The biggest I see is the is no strain reliefs where your wire enter into your boxes. Those knock out holes leave sharp edges that could cut into the wires.

Kamala

Re: Truck tool box as battery box...

We should be certain regarding the battery type.

That a battery is "sealed" tells us little. My concern is that they may be "maintenance free." Such type can spill and vent freely. Often sold as Marine/RV Deep Cycle. Just an FLA with no access to the cells.

I don't like Gel batteries because the electrolyte can become "pocketed" and their charge criteria is significantly different than FLAs. AGMs and FLAs are similar on such characteristics.

AGMs are unspillable. They can be mounted in any orientation other then upside down. Their cases can be cracked and no acid will flow. AGMS are also calle VRLA (valve regulated lead acid.) Meaning that, if they are over voltaged, they will vent hydrogen. (2 psi is a common limit.) The key is to insure that the charge controller knows this and can adhere to this requirement.

K

HuckMeat

Re: Truck tool box as battery box...

Dave Sparks wrote: »

If this is residential you could be liable if there is a fire! Batteries of this type should not be in metal boxes! The acid needs to be contained if there is a leak from a cracked battery case.

Ask the building department for guidance or if this is at a Community College there must be someone in maintenance responsible for safety and hazardous material. Good Luck!

Can you explain this a little more?

By "batteries of this type", are you talking about lead acid batteries, AGM's, or big giant blow your world up batteries?

I see that outback, xantrex, midnite and others make metal battery cabinets. Is it intended that these only be used for AGM's?

Just wanting clarification... All of the commercial battery specific enclosures are metal. (And wouldn't they still need to be grounded per NEC 2008, even though that does mean wrench to battery to box is a big pow?)..

Great topic!

BB.

Re: Truck tool box as battery box...

One problem was the original metal box was aluminum... Will corrode quickly and if mixed with electrolyte will decompose into Hydrogen gas + some form of aluminum sulfate.

Steel is going to have less of a short term issue with the acid. You can have a spill and clean up / neutralize / repaint without a huge hazard.

Certainly AGM and Gel electrolyte lead acid batteries are pretty spill proof--and perhaps an aluminum box would be less of a H2 hazard. But you still have the grounded box issue.

Swinging metal wrenches in a grounded metal box is pretty scary. The standard recommendation is to wrap electrical (or rubber electrical tape) around the tools and only leave the "working" end exposed.

Normally when working on cars, you are supposed to disconnect the ground first--You cannot get a "short" from - post to grounded sheet-metal. And once the battery ground is lifted--then you can safely disconnect the positive post (no negative connection for current flow if tool shorts).

With large battery banks and multiple strings--Not so easy and safe to just lift one connection to ground.

-Bill

dwh

Re: Truck tool box as battery box...

BB. wrote: »

Swinging metal wrenches in a grounded metal box is pretty scary. The standard recommendation is to wrap electrical (or rubber electrical tape) around the tools and only leave the "working" end exposed.

-Bill

When I was an apprentice, the journeyman I worked with bought a new set of "Kleins" (lineman's pliers). The first thing he did was break out his pocket knife and cut off the insulation on the handles. Naturally, I had to ask why. Here is what he said:

"Because you can't trust this stuff. After a day or a week, the insulation will get nicked and you probably can't even see the nick, but you can get shocked from it. So I take this stuff off and when I NEED insulation, I wrap the handles with tape. BUT, I only trust that for immediate use. If I have to do it again tomorrow, I start over with new tape so that for at least a while I KNOW that the insulation can be trusted."

mike95490

Re: Truck tool box as battery box...

dwh wrote: »

When I was an apprentice, the journeyman I worked with bought a new set of "Kleins" (lineman's pliers). The first thing he did was break out his pocket knife and cut off the insulation on the handles. Naturally, I had to ask why. Here is what he said:

"Because you can't trust this stuff. After a day or a week, the insulation will get nicked and you probably can't even see the nick, but you can get shocked from it. So I take this stuff off and when I NEED insulation, I wrap the handles with tape. BUT, I only trust that for immediate use. If I have to do it again tomorrow, I start over with new tape so that for at least a while I KNOW that the insulation can be trusted."

In that case, the insulation was being trusted to prevent shock from a 600V powerline.

For batteries, you are not going to get insulation pucture, you are trying to prevent 48V from arc welding your wrench / screwdriver across the battery terminals. A nick or 3 won't matter, unless its at the end which hits the other terminal.

niel

Re: Truck tool box as battery box...

i'm a bit confused as to why a lineman would ever trust a thin layer of electrical tape instead of a thicker molded insulation when dealing with high voltage. if he's in doubt then why not wrap the el tape over the standard insulation that came on the pliers as that would be double insurance and less work?;)
for us, as mike said, it is so we don't short the batteries accidentally and not due to a shock hazard.

dwh

Re: Truck tool box as battery box...

niel wrote: »

i'm a bit confused as to why a lineman would ever trust a thin layer of electrical tape instead of a thicker molded insulation when dealing with high voltage. if he's in doubt then why not wrap the el tape over the standard insulation that came on the pliers as that would be double insurance and less work?;)

Dunno, I didn't ask. For myself, that's what I do - tape over the factory insulation.

It may have been that he habitually removed the tape when he was done with it - by drawing a knife blade down the handle to just cut it off - while I would unwrap the old tape and wrap on some new.

for us, as mike said, it is so we don't short the batteries accidentally and not due to a shock hazard.

Of course, I do understand that. I was just making a comment in regards to taping tools for electrical protection to illustrate that it's not a good idea to *trust* the insulation unless you *know* what its current status is.

I.e., don't tape it up today and then tomorrow assume it will still protect you. Default to distrust and start over each time.

Cariboocoot

Re: Truck tool box as battery box...

Linemen, if they have any sense at all, wear gloves. You can't trust any of the insulation or that the line is really "off". Heck when I was putting in my own generator connection the other day I wore gloves and handle the 8 gauge like it was live, even though I knew I had shut off the breaker and the transfer switch and it couldn't possibly be. I get nervous about 240 VAC shocks. Once bitten, twice shy and all that. Although it's more like "50 bitten". :roll:

I've also worked with batteries in metal cases on heavy equipment. Rule One: disconnect the ground cable. If you short ground to ground, nothing happens. If you short hot to ground ... you'd be amazed how much power there still is in a "dead" battery.

Personally I like plastic or wooden battery boxes for the reasons everyone has already mentioned: less potential problems from shorts and acid spills.

dwh

Re: Truck tool box as battery box...

Can't trust gloves either for the same reason - might be nicked.

When I was a working electrician I had a set of "sleeves" (rubber gloves that go up to the shoulder and have a strap across the back to keep them on) that I kept in a plastic toolbox all by themselves.

I almost never used them though. Usually only when disconnecting/reconnecting an underground utility feed. Overhead drop I could do from a fiberglass ladder so I didn't need the sleeves.

I've watched linemen crimping overhead drops to new service entrance wires coming out of a weather head any number of times. Some wore gloves, some didn't. The gloves I saw them wear were the standard issue canvas dipped in rubber - but they were always pretty beat up so I doubt that the linemen trusted them for insulation...probably used them so they didn't get busted for OSHA non-compliance.

Cariboocoot

Re: Truck tool box as battery box...

So the gloves might have a hole in them and the factory insulation on the pliers might have a hole in them and these holes might line up and allow you to get shocked ... but bare hands on a thin layer of electrical tape around the handles is okay?

I'll stick to my method, thank you. :roll:

icarus

Re: Truck tool box as battery box...

Linemen are generally pretty well trained, and few of them get killed, even though they often work in very hazardous conditions. Talking to a roving repair lineman who makes a great living traveling around N. America doing service repairs after storms, everything they do all over the country is by rote. Some of the nuance is different, but the SOP is the same all over. Ground the conductors, open the fuses etc. That way they can go into nearly any area and work on the line(s) with strangers and not get into trouble.

So whether or not one wears a glove, or tapes ones tools is largely a matter of convention I would guess.

Tony

dwh

Re: Truck tool box as battery box...

Cariboocoot wrote: »

So the gloves might have a hole in them and the factory insulation on the pliers might have a hole in them and these holes might line up and allow you to get shocked ... but bare hands on a thin layer of electrical tape around the handles is okay?

Yes, that's exactly correct.

Thickness is a red herring - it's irrelevant. I always use 3M Super 33+ tape which is rated for 600v so a couple of wraps is more than enough to equal any protection that the rubber on the handles would give you (unless you are a lineman working on > 600v).

http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/MROSolutions/Home/Product/MROProducts/Electrical/?PC_7_RJH9U5230GE3E02LECIE2005G3_nid=GSNP7CMWFCgsGJ0XZ869FXgl9FXJ738G1Xbl

99% of the time you don't need the tool handles to be insulated. The point is that if you actually DO need insulation, you'd better *know* that it is reliable. You can't know that unless you make sure of it at the time.


Personally, I like the padding of the rubber on the handles, so I don't strip it off - I leave it and then when I have to do something exciting like cutting the live drop from the pole I'll slap on a fresh layer of tape for certainty. Gloves I use when I don't want blisters or cuts, but I would never trust them to protect me from shock (except for my carefully tended set of sleeves, which only got used once or twice a year anyway).