Battery Desulfator

Anyone have any experience/comments about this system or similar?

http://www.batterylifesaver.com/default.htm

Comments

  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,422 admin
    Re: Battery Desulfator

    Here is the last thread on Desulfators that we had here (month ago)...

    Desulfators?

    Some people like them; some people don't; and some people figure it doesn't hurt, so why not. Lots of strong opinions on all sides.

    Desulfators will not substitute for taking good care of your battery bank (Primarily, to reduce sulfation, don't let a lead acid bank sit for days, week, months below ~75% state of charge)... A couple of good Battery FAQs:

    Deep Cycle Battery FAQ
    www.batteryfaq.org

    -Bill "Duck and Cover" B. ;)
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • bryanl
    bryanl Solar Expert Posts: 175 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Battery Desulfator

    The "strong opinions" I don't understand - but that is an interesting topic on its own.

    It seems to me the issue is trying to figure out why there is such a disparity of opinion.

    It is commonly accepted that sulfation is the cause of 80% or more of battery failures. It is also known that sulfation is crystalline, the crystals will grow over time if given the chance, and it can be very difficult to get the sulfate crystals back into solution. (lead acid batteries are necessarily "sparingly soluble" to start with see A Brief History of Batteries- Part 2).

    Then there's the idea that the sulfate crystals have a different impedance than the rest of the plate material.

    So the theory's good. What's the beef?

    It appears to me that the divergence of opinion may be a result of the inherent variability in battery condition assessment.

    The pulse charge desulfators, which the BLS is, may modify useful battery life if applied to batteries whose main problem is sulfation. One source of divergent opinion may be in selecting this set of batteries. If you've got a healthy battery in regular use or a dead battery from irrecoverable causes, desulfation is not likely to show much of any advantage.

    Another problem is that of measuring battery life. A look at the NAWS FAQ shows how difficult this can be. How can one determine that a desulfator provided even up to twice the battery life when you can get that much variance from many other factors? That can also cause opinions to vary.

    In other words, there isn't any good and reliable referent nor any easy way to provide a control against which battery life dependence upon any one variable can be measured. That means results are highly subjective and that can lead to a wide variety in opinions.

    The BLS claim to fame seems to be a patented use of a square wave for its effect. I don't think that reflects very well on the USPTO and it comes across to me as the wrong sort of hype. It may work but the presentation rather turns me off. (but it may appeal to others YMMV)
  • rplarry
    rplarry Solar Expert Posts: 203 ✭✭
    Re: Battery Desulfator

    I tried the desulfaters some years ago and could not tell that they did me any good, so for me it was a waste of money. Usually people try to salvage batteries using them, and maybe as Bryanl says how are you going to know if your batteries are salvageable? Maybe if you installed the desulfater on a new set of batteries so that the sulfation never gets a chace to grow. But quien sabe? I find that using a battery bank that is the proper size so that my solar array can recarge them properly is my best way to prevent sulfation.
    Larry
  • PhilS
    PhilS Solar Expert Posts: 370 ✭✭✭
    Re: Battery Desulfator

    On the 7th of this month, WisJim posted a question on whether Desulfators interfered with MPPT controllers. I'd never heard of that before, but since I have three MPPT controllers and two Desulfators, and since I didn't believe my controllers were operating as well as they should, I disconnected the Desulfators.

    Amazing difference in the performance of two controllers. I posted details at WisJim's thread here:

    http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?p=66058#post66058

    Phil
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Battery Desulfator

    I have one (48V model) and have used it for about 3 months, and have not noticed any differenece. I'll find out for sure this winter when the batteries get used more (shortter days, longer nights) and if the capacity has come up any.
    i've noticed no effect with a Morningstar MPPT 60A controller, it goes thru it's charge stages as always.
    Mike
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • Wis03Blade
    Wis03Blade Registered Users Posts: 20
    Re: Battery Desulfator

    Just spent some lengthly time with my SBS ( Storage Battery Systems LLc) guy. Some battery manufactures are now looking at putting the liquid "Therm Oil" Battery De-Sulfater right in at the factory with all new batteries as a preventive measure. Also look at the Battery De-Mister , a gel type additive , that rest above the water, and minimizes water adding considerably. He has added them to all his Fleet users, and he has a lot of them, and they have seen both less watering , and longer service life. Search under SBS, the Greenville , Wisconsin location, or research Therm Oil for the products. I've added 3oz of the De-Sulfater and 3oz of the De-Mister to each cell, I'll let you know the results. Watch for the manufactures to start adding them before you buy them, And an upcoming battery manufacture will start adding them soon.
  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    Re: Battery Desulfator
    Wis03Blade wrote: »
    Just spent some lengthly time with my SBS ( Storage Battery Systems LLc) guy. Some battery manufactures are now looking at putting the liquid "Therm Oil" Battery De-Sulfater right in at the factory with all new batteries as a preventive measure. Also look at the Battery De-Mister , a gel type additive , that rest above the water, and minimizes water adding considerably. He has added them to all his Fleet users, and he has a lot of them, and they have seen both less watering , and longer service life. Search under SBS, the Grand Chute , Wisconsin location, or research Therm Oil for the products. I've added 3oz of the De-Sulfater and 3oz of the De-Mister to each cell, I'll let you know the results. Watch for the manufactures to start adding them before you buy them, And an upcoming battery manufacture will start adding them soon.
    In a perfect world maybe, as long as it remained floating above the electrolyte and didn't infect the plates it might work. About every 10 years or so someone tries to re-invent the light bulb and these old age treatments come back with a new name and some newly found theory, in reality, they are all the same. As a battery heats up the oil turns to goo over time.
  • Wis03Blade
    Wis03Blade Registered Users Posts: 20
    Re: Battery Desulfator

    in my research ( and I do a lot before I purchase in either my business or personal world) the old, previous products didn't test well with battery manufactures, this is a local company , that has been working on this for almost 50 years, had tested and proven track record and has proven to manufactures that it is viable, and works. Never before has a manufacture agreed to add it to the production line , and ,or tried to buy the patent to discontinue the production,(usually another good sign that it works) that I am told is of natural products and could in theory be drank. Huge battery manufactures don't want your battery's to last , because they want you to replace them with there new ones, called job security.
    Another thing I've notice that most battery banks I see listed have all the batteries mashed together , with out air gaps between them, looks like common practice, my installer did the same thing. I moved them apart with a 3/4" air gap surrounding each battery. Heat is one of the worst thing for them , yet everyone has them scrunched right up to each other. Go figure. I tread lightly when adding something to 5+k worth of practically new batteries, that could shorten the life. Like I said I'll keep everyone advised as to the outcome.
  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    Re: Battery Desulfator

    Your right about cubing batteries. I have a one inch piece of furring stick I use to position the batteries before I measure for cables, most installers could care less or just don't know.
  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Battery Desulfator
    Wis03Blade wrote: »
    I am told is of natural products and could in theory be drank.

    That's a line many manufactures, retailers and especially the "natural" health industry love to use as a selling tool.
    Keep in mind that arsenic, uranium, lead, radon gas and asbestos are also "natural".
    Not saying the advertised products are no good, but when i see "natural" being used to promote - - I start questioning credibility.
  • Wis03Blade
    Wis03Blade Registered Users Posts: 20
    Re: Battery Desulfator

    No he said that I could drink it. So nothing toxic. Kinda like natural, or Organic, Big difference.
  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    Re: Battery Desulfator
    Wis03Blade wrote: »
    No he said that I could drink it.

    Did you? ;)

    .....
  • PNjunction
    PNjunction Solar Expert Posts: 762 ✭✭✭
    Re: Battery Desulfator
    BB. wrote: »
    Desulfators will not substitute for taking good care of your battery bank (Primarily, to reduce sulfation, don't let a lead acid bank sit for days, week, months below ~75% state of charge)...

    You said that right! Charging your batteries properly takes care of sulfation. What the desulfator snake-oil salesman DON'T tell you is that along with sulfation comes grid-corrosion, which is irreperable, although I hear that a grid-restoration cream may be hitting the market. Gently coat the outside of your battery case with it, and the grids restore themselves. :)

    Even in those cases where desulfator users report success, the grid damage has already been done, and the battery is a zombie that won't meet anywhere near the rated load capacity.
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Battery Desulfator
    PNjunction wrote: »
    You said that right! Charging your batteries properly takes care of sulfation. What the desulfator snake-oil salesman DON'T tell you is that along with sulfation comes grid-corrosion, which is irreperable, although I hear that a grid-restoration cream may be hitting the market. Gently coat the outside of your battery case with it, and the grids restore themselves. :)

    Even in those cases where desulfator users report success, the grid damage has already been done, and the battery is a zombie that won't meet anywhere near the rated load capacity.

    come on now, if there was a grid-corrosion creme then the utilities would fix the grid with it.:p
  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Battery Desulfator
    PNjunction wrote: »
    I hear that a grid-restoration cream may be hitting the market. Gently coat the outside of your battery case with it, and the grids restore themselves. :)

    I know this can work, because things do move through the hard plastic battery cases. Case in point - - Was speaking with a well experienced gentleman the other day and he informed me that if you sit a battery on concrete "It (the concrete) will suck the juice right out of it!" (It being the battery)
    So it stands to reason that if the battery "juice" can be sucked out through the case, then surely creamed paste can pass the opposite direction through the battery case, especially if the battery is first totally discharged to eliminate any electromotive force that might otherwise resist the cream entering through the case.
  • Wis03Blade
    Wis03Blade Registered Users Posts: 20
    Re: Battery Desulfator

    I did not drink it. Batteries sitting on concrete is an old wise tale, There is no detrimental harm done to a battery that has been sitting on concrete. The De-Mister is also going to seep through the post extension through the plastic case and keep them from blackening due to acid seepage at the penetration location. I've seen examples of this on batteries that have been in testing. My battery bank did get sulfated as a result of my installer telling , and setting the improper charge parameters, therefore not fully charging to 100% of capacity , my specific gravity drooped and stayed at about 1250 average, so yes, I'm trying to regain that lost top end and get them back up to 1280.
  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    Re: Battery Desulfator
    Wis03Blade wrote: »
    There is no detrimental harm done to a battery that has been sitting on concrete.

    It might be. If this makes the bottom of the battery much colder than the top, the temperature difference will cause different charging of bottom and top parts. The bottom will be constantly undercharged, and the top will be overcharged. That's the same as stratification. An insulation between cold concrete and batteries will help.
    Wis03Blade wrote: »
    My battery bank did get sulfated as a result of my installer telling , and setting the improper charge parameters, therefore not fully charging to 100% of capacity , my specific gravity drooped and stayed at about 1250 average, so yes, I'm trying to regain that lost top end and get them back up to 1280.

    It would be very interesting to know if the desulphator is going to hep your batteries or not.

    Unfortunately, many people use de-suplhators and overcharging at the same time (possibly other things too) and then attribute the success to the de-sulphator while the success could've been totally unrelated to it. You cannot draw any conclusins from such experiences.

    To make the experiment clean, I would start from few long equalizations. If the SG stays at 1.250 after that, then this is a good case for de-sulphator to be tested.
  • Wis03Blade
    Wis03Blade Registered Users Posts: 20
    Re: Battery Desulfator

    I did do a individual 180 minute string (2 rows of 8-6 volt batteries) equalization two weekends in a row trying to help them, the SG did not change. So that is why I added the DeSulfator. Will not do an equalization now for at least one month to allow the thing to do its thing. I'll check the SG again Friday to see if it moved. I don't know enough about the concrete thing, My Interstate Battery guy for the shop told me that it had no effect, I also asked the Storage Battery Systems guy and he agreed? Just what they told me.
  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    Re: Battery Desulfator
    Wis03Blade wrote: »
    I did do a individual 180 minute string (2 rows of 8-6 volt batteries) equalization two weekends in a row trying to help them, the SG did not change.

    In my (very limited) experience, that's not even close to be enough. You should do it for 10 hours a day for several days without discharging in between. You should use higher voltage (I used 2.67V/cell). You should only stop when SG doesn't change any more for few hours. That's what Trojan told me to do when they thought my batteries were sulphated.

    Such procedure would establish a base line of what the SG of your batteries was before de-sulphator application. Otherwise, your past SG record only indicates that your batteries were undercharged. If there's an improvement, there's no way to know if your de-sulphator worked its magic or you simply finally charged the batteries.
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Battery Desulfator

    additional thoughts here may be that the cold floor will make the temp of the battery colder and perform according to that temp. colder batteries do lose some of their capacity dictated by the actual temp it is drawn down to. if the battery is actively being charged or discharged it generates some heat in the battery and thus raising the battery's temp and as such raises its performance as well.

    one must also be careful that the battery not power the desulfator as it will put a drain on the batteries and even if the thing does put a charge to the batteries, it will not be equal as it will lose energy overall due to losses from operating the electronics. (perpetual motion analogy thing)

    no one has proven desulfators to really work and if there is a chance some have it would have been small in scale under limited circumstance. no proof in prevention either.

    by the way wis03blade it is "old wives tale" and not "old wise tale" even though in a strange way that would sarcastically be fitting.
  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Battery Desulfator
    niel wrote: »
    No one has proven desulfators really work and if there is a chance some have, it would have been small in scale under limited circumstance. No proof in prevention either.

    Belief in desulfators is actually very close to the mindset involved with religion. No proof is needed for those who believe, and those who don't believe are often reviled as heretics.
  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Battery Desulfator
    Belief in desulfators is actually very close to the mindset involved with religion. No proof is needed for those who believe, and those who don't believe are often reviled as heretics.
    Or if they once believed and no longer do, they would be apostates, which is even worse.

    I, on the other hand, remain firmly agnostic. :-)
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
  • Wis03Blade
    Wis03Blade Registered Users Posts: 20
    Re: Battery Desulfator

    I stand corrected on the wives tale, questioned myself when I proof read it, as so I digress.
    Back to the Equalization. I could do a 10 hour equalization with the gen-set, as I am off grid the "no usage" between charges is impossible. What am I overriding to preform a 10 hour equalization? Just resetting the bulk to 64.08 volts ( that's 2.67v per cell x 3 per batt x 8 batteries) and max out the run time? What Exactly am I watching for on my control panel? PM with a phone number if it is more complicated than you can explain via forum.
  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    Re: Battery Desulfator
    Wis03Blade wrote: »
    I stand corrected on the wives tale, questioned myself when I proof read it, as so I digress.
    Back to the Equalization. I could do a 10 hour equalization with the gen-set, as I am off grid the "no usage" between charges is impossible. What am I overriding to preform a 10 hour equalization? Just resetting the bulk to 64.08 volts ( that's 2.67v per cell x 3 per batt x 8 batteries) and max out the run time? What Exactly am I watching for on my control panel? PM with a phone number if it is more complicated than you can explain via forum.

    My SG was low. I couldn't elevate it with notmal charging. The routine I followed is this:


    1. I fully charged batteries (as much as I could with regular methods).

    2. I set Absorb voltage and Float voltage to 64V (I have XW, but it sould probably work with any). I let it charge. 64V was crucial. I did equalizations with 62V before, and it didn't help. It was actually little higher than 64V because of the temperature compensation, but then decreased some because temperature went up.

    3. While charging I monitored:

    a. SG. It was supposed to increase all the time. I measured 3 pilot cells every hour, took the avarage, and compare to previous readings. It was increasing steadily, sometimes very slowly - 0.005/hour, sometimes faster. I was supposed to stop if it stops increasing. It sort of did after 10 hours, but I ran another 10 (stopped after 7 hours because it clearly didn't increase any more and was at the manufacturer's specified value - 1.260 for my batteries).

    b. Temperature. If it would get above 40C, I would need to stop immediately. It didn't come even close.

    The routine was suggested by Trojan to fight suspected sulphation. It is possible that I might've had it because my batteries were constantly undercharged for half a year.
  • Mangas
    Mangas Solar Expert Posts: 547 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Battery Desulfator

    I disconnected my four de-sulfators 3 years ago. Wasn't convinced they were extending battery life and was worried too about the charge controllers.

    I replace our batteries every 7 years or so anyway. Don't believe in running out their string.
    Ranch Off Grid System & Custom Home: 2 x pair stacked Schneider XW 5548+ Plus inverters (4), 2 x Schneider MPPT 80-600 Charge Controllers, 2 Xanbus AGS Generator Start and Air Extraction System Controllers, 64 Trojan L16 REB 6v 375 AH Flooded Cel Batteries w/Water Miser Caps, 44 x 185 Sharp Solar Panels, Cummins Onan RS20 KW Propane Water Cooled Genset, ICF Custom House Construction, all appliances, Central A/C, 2 x High Efficiency Variable Speed three ton Central A/C 220v compressors, 2 x Propane furnaces, 2 x Variable Speed Air Handlers, 2 x HD WiFi HVAC Zoned System Controllers
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Battery Desulfator

    northguy,
    i'm thinking that although you may have revived the batteries some i think that after 6 months you have to have some diminished capacity as i'm sure parts of the sulfation had become too hard to remove by any method, manufacturer recommendations or not. that's just far too long a time period to do something about a deficit charge.
  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    Re: Battery Desulfator
    niel wrote: »
    northguy,
    i'm thinking that although you may have revived the batteries some i think that after 6 months you have to have some diminished capacity as i'm sure parts of the sulfation had become too hard to remove by any method, manufacturer recommendations or not. that's just far too long a time period to do something about a deficit charge.

    Niel,

    It was 5 months, of which the batteries were sitting on float for the first 3.5 months until I started doing something with them, so it wasn't that bad. I don't think there ever was any sulphation. They're still as difficult to charge as they were from the beginning - need high voltage and long absorption - last one took 5.5 hours. However, other than that, they work fine - I get full SG after every charge and the capacity seems to be there. I'm waiting for winter to see if they can take occasional 80% DoD discharges. Then I'll know if the capacity is good.
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Battery Desulfator

    ok thanks for clarifying that and glad to hear it too as diminished capacity would be a bummer.