MY hybrid system.

Teljkon · July 2010

So iam looking to put together a hybrid system down the road. To explain why the wait and save some one the post its because im looking at swaping out light bulbe to corn cob LED ( any one now of a good source that will work on us 110) getting updated appliances etc etc. Basically I want to take one breaker/room off the grid and use the grid as the backup.

As i understand it at this point this is what I need. I need a combiner, Dc ground fault interupter, charge controller, battery bank, inverter, and a transfer switch.

This is the list of simple questions i still have

1. Is there a combiner that will work for both wind and solar. ( i like to tinker and may take a crack at building a wind generator or a wind ribbon )

2 Can i skip or down size the battery bank since I just want to use the Alternative energy when its there.

3 I gought a kill a watt meter is there any thing eles that you guys recomend for mesuring the power that I will need to displace in the room.

This is the complicated end and show my ignorance of the system how do i guarantee the quality of energy at the out put side. Im looking to run two fridges on temperture switches (im a home brewer) and i dont want to blow my compressors because the switch is letting it run off a lower amount of Volts than it needs for proper operation. At what point is that regulated can. will the system regulate that all the way back at the charge controller or will it happen at the inverter. My thoughts lean twoard Inverter so what kind of options on a Inverter would suit my needs.

Finally the room i want to do this too isnt always in use. so if the battery bank is full and the room isnt using any power. Yet the Alternative energey is cranking where does it go. down the ground from the charge controller?? guess that relates back to the can I skip or down size question.

Finaly hope i didnt come up with to many base questions i try to do my research befor I ask questions. Pleas excuse the spelling I dont have Ie spell on this machine yet.

BB. · July 2010

Re: MY hybrid system.

Teljkon wrote: »

So I iam looking to put together a hybrid system down the road. To explain why the wait and save some one the post its because im looking at swapping out light bulb to corn cob LED ( any one now of a good source that will work on us 110) getting updated appliances etc etc. Basically I want to take one breaker/room off the grid and use the grid as the backup.

Welcome to the forum and a few observations...

If you do get an LED lamp--just get one and see how it works for you. The typical "corn-cob" type LED lamp (Lots of small LEDs all wired together) may not last all that long. Even though you see 50,000-100,000 hours of life listed--many times you are lucky to get 500-1,000 hours before the LED's fail (or dim to less than 50% output). LED's, are efficient--but they still generate a lot of heat in a small area and those types of packages are not very good at heat dissipation.

You ask about a Hybrid System... There are Grid Tied (no battery bank, just solar panels to GT inverter to your house wiring), Off-Grid (basically solar + battery + inverter + backup charge controller--like a UPS uninterruptable power supply), and Hybrid (Grid Tied when the sun is up, Off-Grid when the AC power has failed).

GT is the cheapest/most efficient/least costs to maintain. Hybrid combines the good and bad elements of GT/Off-Grid. And Off-Grid is typically the most costly per kWH (batteries wear from constant use, more losses from extra charge controller and cycling battery bank, etc.).

While it is certainly possible to set up one room for off-grid solar power and can be a good learning experience--it is not, usually, the optimum way to spend your money.

As i understand it at this point this is what I need. I need a combiner, Dc ground fault interrupter, charge controller, battery bank, inverter, and a transfer switch.

The Combiner, at least in the terms used here, is usually only required when you have 3 or more parallel strings of solar panels to wire together with protective fuses/breakers. So--depends on the configuration/size of your system.

The DC GFI--You can get that pre-wired from several companies--When we know the size of your system we can point a couple out to you. (personally, I am not convinced that a DC GFI is a good thing--but it is required by electrical code).

This is the list of simple questions i still have

1. Is there a combiner that will work for both wind and solar. ( i like to tinker and may take a crack at building a wind generator or a wind ribbon )

A "combiner" is for combining solar arrays together. Adding wind is usually done differently and the power is sent directly to the battery bank (with a "Diversion/Dump charge controller+dump load" to get rid of excess wind power)--not to the solar panel connections.

2 Can i skip or down size the battery bank since I just want to use the Alternative energy when its there.

Batteries are the one thing in the system that respond to how they are used. If under (or even over) sized--you probably will generally not get good battery life. They should be sized to your expected loads/needs and the amount of charging energy you have available.

3 I bought a kill a watt meter is there any thing else that you guys recommend for measuring the power that I will need to displace in the room.

If you will have DC loads... A DC Amp*Hour/Watt*Hour meter is nice.

More expensive, but also very nice to have (and almost a requirement for AGM/Sealed Battery Banks) is a Battery Monitor.

And if flooded cell batteries... A Hydrometer and thermometer if you have wide temperature ranges.

This is the complicated end and show my ignorance of the system how do i guarantee the quality of energy at the out put side. Im looking to run two fridges on temperature switches (im a home brewer) and i don't want to blow my compressors because the switch is letting it run off a lower amount of Volts than it needs for proper operation. At what point is that regulated can. will the system regulate that all the way back at the charge controller or will it happen at the inverter. My thoughts lean toward Inverter so what kind of options on a Inverter would suit my needs.

Get a Sine Wave inverter with a minimum of 1,200-1,500 watt output for a typical (simple) Energy Star Refrigerator.

MSW (Modified Square/Sine Wave) inverters can be very tough on motors and other small appliances.

Note that running one or two refrigerators is really no longer the definition of a small system anymore... That is a fairly large / expensive / complex setup to supply 1-2 kWH per day per refrigerator.

Finally the room i want to do this too isn't always in use. so if the battery bank is full and the room isn't using any power. Yet the Alternative energy is cranking where does it go. down the ground from the charge controller?? guess that relates back to the can I skip or down size question.

Off-Grid Solar PV power is typically best used some 9+ months of the year (usually winter does not produce much power in many locations anyway). The less you use the system, the more power you "lose". You can usually store only about 3 days of useful power in your battery bank (basic rule of thumb--you can store more, but it comes at a cost).

Finally hope i didnt come up with to many base questions i try to do my research befor I ask questions. Pleas excuse the spelling I dont have Ie spell on this machine yet.

In the end, conservation first, understanding your loads/power usage, and finally defining your needs (save money, emergency backup power, go green, learning, etc.) so you can design the optimum system for you.

Otherwise, solar RE can be like a boat (a hole in the water into which you throw money).

Otherwise, here is a good thread for a first time reader here... Lots of basic information and random ideas about solar/conservation/etc.

Working Thread for Solar Beginner Post/FAQ

-Bill

Teljkon · July 2010

Re: MY hybrid system.

When you did your categorization of systems in your run down you didn't address a system on a switch that takes electric company power when needed but runs things on Alternative energy when its around. Is this type of system not possible if so why not. Also like I said i like to tinker and as i understand it they wont pass any thing thats not contractor installed etc etc so getting a GT ( Grid tied where I can sell power back) sounds like the wrong thing for me. keep in mind my fridges are on temp controllers I have a heart and Ranco controller ( wired them both my self 8)) so they cycle allot less than a normal fridge. Also I just plain open them allot less.

All the cost on this one is going to be saved with the sweat equity end of thing Diy construction on every thing I can. Only thing I'm thinking about having a electrician install is from inverter to transfer switch and electric box to transfer switch.

Allow me to Diagram it at the switch

electric box

Power grid (back up)
/
Switch

Room/Load
\
inverter

Alternative energy system (primary)

Sorry if that looks a little queer the post doesn't show as typed.

Cariboocoot · July 2010

Re: MY hybrid system.

Yes it is possible to do this. It just isn't typical or usual. If grid is available, then the standard procedure is grid-tie as Bill outlined. Often the battery back-up is on a set of 'critical' circuits in case of power failure. However ...

What your looking for is a sort-of hybrid off-grid system which uses the utility as a "generator" to supply power when solar/battery is down. This can be accomplished either by programming the low Voltage "gen start" function to actuate a relay and supply grid power to the inverter/charger's AC In or by programming a similar function to the AUX output of a charge controller such as the Outback which would actuate the grid/AC In connection when the Voltage is low.

Otherwise an external circuit could be built to trigger the connection is the PV current is above a certain Amperage.

Or you can keep an eye on it and flip a switch, since this is (probably) for experimental purposes?

I'm sure some others will have additional solutions.

BB. · July 2010

Re: MY hybrid system.

Yes, you can do what you ask--but as Marc says, it just isn't that common. And the reasons are:

Battery is 80% efficient, grid charger around 80% efficient, and the inverter is ~85% efficient. So, just charging from the grid to get AC power is 0.8*0.8*0.85=0.54 or 54% efficient. You have lost 1/2 of your energy just to recharge your battery bank.
Cycling batteries age them. Very roughly, it can cost around $0.45 per kWH for the equipment plus wear and tear for the battery bank. If you can avoid cycling your batteries, or better yet, avoid batteries, you are much more efficient and less costly.
If you live in a place that supports Net Metering (utility only charges you for the difference between power you use and power you generator)--A Grid Tied System is the most efficient and least costly solar RE solution. Basically you can get down to ~$0.10 to $0.30 per kWH for Grid Tied Solar. For Off Grid solar, it is not unusual for the system costs to be in the $1-$2+ per kWH. A hybrid system (Grid Tied with Off-Grid backup power) is probably in the $0.40-$0.75 per kWH price range.
Grid Tied systems use the utility as a cheap / virtually unlimited capacity AC battery bank. Mine is a 1 year net metering plan with a $5 per month connection fee. No way I could ever "go off-grid" and only have $60 per year out of pocket costs.
For emergency power, I have a small Honda eu2000i and some stored fuel. Lot less expensive than a battery bank. For my area, the last power outage that lasted more than a few hours was 50+ years ago... No matter how neat battery looks--it is not worth it to me, to ride through a a couple 1/2 - 1 hour power failures every few years. Since a solar off grid / hybrid system would probably need generator backup anyway (if failure during winter)--then why mess the system up with more costs if the grid failures are rare and short. Just go solar Grid Tied with generator backup (natural gas, propane, etc.). as needed.

Don't worry about asking questions and talking through your ideas... We all here believe in planning out a solar RE system before spending the first dollar (not that all of us here have done that our selves

).

-Bill

Teljkon · July 2010

Re: MY hybrid system.

Ahh very cool. Like I said I'm not dead set on a battery bank. If i cant tinker up my own energy sources and sell there energy back to the power company then I at least would like to use that energy to run what I can. I have plans for all kinds of things hydro, solar, & wind Diy projects. keeping that in mind I would like to put my money into a really good inverter and DC ground fault interrupter & switch (once it hits the house i want it to be code). Since the back up battery's are so in efficient I guess I would skip those.

My only concern is clean energy at load. It seems to me the best place to monitor this is at the switch & if i do this at the switch then it seems i could skip batteries. So who makes a high end switch?? As doing it this way seems that the switch would get allot of work? No way i want to be flipping a switch all the time since it may live in the attic. and if i don't have a battery system and I'm producing only 95% of the energy needed to flip the switch to use AE for running the load will it flip on and off like crazy? Also if my switch goes down or sticks on grid will it back up the AE system and burn that out. If I'm looking at the switch working like crazy am i looking at burning a switch out in a year?

I also rather not cycle the batteries off of grid as ill be losing in inversion etc. So can i not get a good charge controller on a small battery bank where you're looking at enough charge to run for say 10 to 15 minuets so my switch isn't going nuts. But then am i not cycling the batteries like crazy and burning them out. I may be looking at the battery as a cheap component saver rather buy a few batteries every 2 or 3 years than new components. I think automotive may be the best for this a allot of them have warranties for a few years.

I guess the only thought i haven't aired out is if it all goes down and the AE is still cranking where does the dc go ??

Delivering smooth power isn't easy guess thats why they charge so much.

BB. · July 2010

Re: MY hybrid system.

If you have utility power and your utility supports net metering, and you want to experiment with lots of alternative sources of power (solar, wind, water, etc.)... A Hybrid Inverter like the Schneider/Xantrex XW system is difficult product to beat.

The Hybrid Inverter (XW Inverter/Charger) basically tries to keep the batteries at float voltage (say 53 VDC for a 48 volt battery bank)... What ever charging source you have, the XW Hybrid Inverter in Grid Tied mode will take any energy that takes the battery above 53 VDC and convert that into AC power (up to 4-6kW depending on model number) and send that out to the utility--even turning your meter backwards if the GT output power exceeds the home's energy usage.

With Grid Tied Inverters, there are no AC transfer switches needed... The GT inverter is simply parallel connected to the home's AC mains. And the loads simply see AC power--they cannot tell if it is from utility or GT inverter. Basically, the utility looks like a giant AC battery.

And if the AC mains fails, the XW inverter flips an internal AC Transfer switch and turns into an Off-Grid inverter to support your local AC loads.

The XW system will also support a Generator for backup power too.

-Bill

Teljkon · July 2010

Re: MY hybrid system.

I'm sure that my utility supports net metering I just don't think my home tinkered hand made wind mills and hydro mills and solar panels will get approved by inspectors or the power company.

I'm looking at having a smaller start up cost than that 4,500 dollar price tag and that will have to cover charger, inverter, and switch and just enough power from one of the three to do the minimum start up power for the system I'm not even looking at netting much power right off just building the system up from neutral.

I cant stress how off the radar this will be because if i do come up with some mad scientest shit i dont wnat any one stealing it

BB. · July 2010

Re: MY hybrid system.

I am not sure--but the XW system is about as legal/invisible as it can get... You install an XW + minimum solar panels + charge controller + battery bank to get building permit / utility approval--Then connect anything you want to your 24 or 48 volt battery bank and "start charging"... The XW will be the "ultimate 4-6kW dump load controller". With the utility being your dump (and your home 120/240 VAC system too).

But--I hear you on the $$$ issue.

The $3-$3.4K includes the Inverter (GT/Off-Grid), Internal AC Transfer Switch, AC Main input, AC Generator Input, AC/Generator battery charger... Minimum you would have to add is a DC charge controller and some solar panels. Plus and optional pre-wired box and possibly an auto-start generator controller.

Otherwise, you are left with using standard dump controllers and something to take the "waste energy" (typically some sort of electric heater--although some folks here have configured well pumps and other optional loads for there off-grid dump loads).

-Bill

Teljkon · July 2010

Re: MY hybrid system.

From what I'm seeing though the hard part of not doing it with a high end inverter/charge controller combo product is that the wind and hydro take different charge controller than the solar. So can i just use one charge controller on the wind put that into my combiner then to a final charge controller for my battery bank. Are there controllers that are designed to handle multiple controllers stacked on one another or even just a regulator that turns the sporadic wind steady. Sounds like wind just needs a really big capacitor. You would think some one would have this kind of thing as I'm sure so many folks would like to play with different forms of AE. But hey I'm a newbie so what do I now.

Teljkon · July 2010

Re: MY hybrid system.

Found a product called flex-charge any one heard of it seems a little complicated though.

Cariboocoot · July 2010

Re: MY hybrid system.

A few random but associated comments/observations.

If you're looking for cost-effective energy saving, spend the $ on conservation. All this Alternate Energy stuff is expensive and does not give as good a return on investment.

Yes, wind/hydro require different controllers than solar. Separate ones, for one thing, with diversion capability to handle the 'over-run' once batteries are full. Generally this is about the worst place you can spend your money in terms of return. Such systems are not highly compatible with most grid-tie set-ups. Could be a costly pain-in-the-anatomy.

If you've got grid, use it.

For experimental purposes, go with a 12 Volt, "single outlet" set-up (like the Morningstar 300 Watt inverter, 100 Amp/hr battery, 10 Amp PWM-type charge controller, Kyocera 135 Watt panel - as an example). Understand that you're spending your money on a learning experience. It's nearly impossible to "start small and build up" a solar electric system. You inevitably end up with a semi-functioning hodgepodge of mismatched components.

I've not heard of "Flex-Charge", but it sounds suspiciously like they're trying to capitalize on Outback's FlexMax trademark.

Teljkon · July 2010

Re: MY hybrid system.

I don't know if you read the first post i made but I already stated that I'm only in the planing learning stages of the AE but am actively moving in the direction of conservation first.

As far as grid tie goes again I'm in the learning stages on that as well i don't know what my local power company and building codes are for hooking up grid tie AE are so I'm assuming the worst hoping for the best on that one.

It does bring up an interesting question can a charge controller be set to simply feed straight to your inverter with no battery connected. If this flex charge controller can do what it says seems like a great thing for regulating the power before it hits my inverter.

My problem seems to be every charge controller and inverter are so god forsaken different that every component changes your system to some thing totally different than what you may have had before or after.

And if it seems like I'm trying to learn backward it just the way i do things.

So i guess what I need to now is not the easy how to but the easy how not to so i can avoid mistakes. Secondly I'm going to need a amature in electrical wiring and theory any suggestions on where to start on the reading.

Also below is the link for flex charge. I'm going to read on that Outback thing you mentioned they seem like "Thee Brand".

http://www.flexcharge.com/flexcharge_usa/products/nc25a/nc25a.htm

Cariboocoot · July 2010

Re: MY hybrid system.

Warnings, in order of importance:

No, a charge controller can not feed an inverter directly. Battery-based inverters are just that; battery-based (dependent) The controller regulates the recharging of the batteries by the solar panels. Where people get confused about this is that most grid-tie systems skip batteries and the panels do feed the inverter directly. But the GT inverter's output varies in proportion to the panels', whereas the battery-based system attempts to maintain a consistent 'potential' power.

Second, Outback equipment is good, but the design is getting bit out-of-date and some of the other inverters & chargers are more efficient. Also, OB stuff tends to be a tad expensive. :roll:
Spend some time looking at the various pieces available from different companies via our host NAWS:
http://store.solar-electric.com/inverters.html
You'll at least start to get an idea of the costs per Watt involved.

It's always best to define your end goals first, either in terms of feeding whatever to the grid or providing "X" Watt hours of power, and then start looking at the different ways this can be accomplished. There are many.

As Tony (Icarus) always says: "Avoid ready, fire, aim!"
(I think that's the unofficial motto around here. Either that or; "conservation, conservation, conservation!")

Edit: I'm not sure I'd believe the Flexcharge claim of up to 99.9% efficiency. Better ask Solar Guppy about that.
Further reading shows some of their other numbers are "suspect". For instance you can't charge a "12 Volt" battery with 12.6 Volts. This could just be a poorly prepared promo, or it could be bunk.

rplarry · July 2010

Re: MY hybrid system.

I am leaning toward the "bunk" in their discription of what their controller can do. Here is a copy and paste from their site:
With a peak charging efficiency of 99.9% and an operating current of only 4mA, more of the systems charging energy will get through a NC25A into your batteries than with any other regulator on the market. Models are available for charging 12V, 24V, 36V, and 48V systems. Use with Lead Acid, Gel, or Flooded Nicad battery technologies.
Notice the "flooded nicad battery technologies" that statement leads me to believe they don't know what they are talking about, and if you go down to the bottom of the page it says: last updated 1-3-99
I would be very suspect.
Larry

Cariboocoot · July 2010

Re: MY hybrid system.

rplarry wrote: »

I am leaning toward the "bunk" in their discription of what their controller can do. Here is a copy and paste from their site:
With a peak charging efficiency of 99.9% and an operating current of only 4mA, more of the systems charging energy will get through a NC25A into your batteries than with any other regulator on the market. Models are available for charging 12V, 24V, 36V, and 48V systems. Use with Lead Acid, Gel, or Flooded Nicad battery technologies.
Notice the "flooded nicad battery technologies" that statement leads me to believe they don't know what they are talking about, and if you go down to the bottom of the page it says: last updated 1-3-99
I would be very suspect.
Larry

Yes: the more you read the more their numbers don't make sense. I was particularly interested in the "2000 Amp" charge controller! :roll:

BB. · July 2010

Re: MY hybrid system.

It probably works, and there are flooded NiCad batteries--but with the environmental laws now-a-days, you better really need a flooded NiCad (they used to be used in Turbo-prop aircraft for the ability to source current and take very heavy current for quick recharging--plus light weight).

Otherwise, the Flexware charge controller is just another one or two stage PWM charge controller (or relay driver). Does not consume much power because it, most likely, does not have have much in the way of "smarts"...

-Bill

mike95490 · July 2010

Re: MY hybrid system.

Hey, their stuff is Y2K compliant !!

nsaspook · July 2010

Re: MY hybrid system.

Teljkon wrote: »

When you did your categorization of systems in your run down you didn't address a system on a switch that takes electric company power when needed but runs things on Alternative energy when its around. Is this type of system not possible if so why not. Also like I said i like to tinker and as i understand it they wont pass any thing thats not contractor installed etc etc so getting a GT ( Grid tied where I can sell power back) sounds like the wrong thing for me. keep in mind my fridges are on temp controllers I have a heart and Ranco controller ( wired them both my self 8)) so they cycle allot less than a normal fridge. Also I just plain open them allot less.

All the cost on this one is going to be saved with the sweat equity end of thing Diy construction on every thing I can. Only thing I'm thinking about having a electrician install is from inverter to transfer switch and electric box to transfer switch.

Allow me to Diagram it at the switch

electric box
Power grid (back up)
/
Switch
Room/Load
\
inverter
Alternative energy system (primary)

Sorry if that looks a little queer the post doesn't show as typed.

I've done this with a simple DPDT relay circuit to switch from grid to solar generated power to run exterior lighting and security cameras ( If I were powering motors I'd need a proper zero-crossing SSR type circuit to better sync the different power phases) . My controller looks at the SOC of the battery bank and excess power from the panel to decide if it can power the extra load. The relay switches in under a .5 seconds and totally isolates the two power sources. Total cost about $50 for the parts added to my custom controller.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4115/4737678978_e7f754160d.jpg

Teljkon · July 2010

Re: MY hybrid system.

So I'm looking at a one off then. "Tank down load electrical engineering"

I hate to be a redundant circuit but recommendations on books books and more books pleas.

Oh man only on a solar forum for a day and already making cheesy electric jokes. If i was a mod I would seriously consider booting me right now.

MY hybrid system.

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