Gulf of Mexico oil spill of 2010 - Have We Learned Anything?

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  • icarusicarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Gulf of Mexico oil spill of 2010 - Have We Learned Anyhting?

    Economics is the only "science" that is predicated on the premise that unlimited growth is not only possible, but desirable! What does that tell you? I have always (well almost always) ascribed to the notion that less is more. Quality over quantity. The reality is, in my life, every "thing" comes at a cost, and often it is a cost I would rather not pay.

    Veering dangerously close to the precipice of politics,

    Tony
  • System2System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    Re: Gulf of Mexico oil spill of 2010 - Have We Learned Anyhting?
    russ wrote: »
    Guess that means İ have to buy BP -

    Now that we are seeing the full scope of this disaster, do you still feel like supporting BP?
  • russruss Solar Expert Posts: 593 ✭✭
    Re: Gulf of Mexico oil spill of 2010 - Have We Learned Anyhting?

    I am as much in favor of BP as I am for the ones calling for vigilante justice without knowing what happened.

    İ prefer to see criminal charges against individuals really - that is a deterrent - screwing the company that type of guy (Hayward or Suttle) could really care less. They have confidence one of their buddies will help them.

    By scewing BP you may well be doing the same thing to a portion of your retirement fund in many cases.

    They were drilling so far out and in such deep water since the government won't let them drill closer but will sell deep water leases - for environmental reasons of all things. İf this was in more shallow water it would be far easier to take care of.
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,226 admin
    Re: Gulf of Mexico oil spill of 2010 - Have We Learned Anyhting?

    You will probably find that all of the bureaucracies (government and corporate) have done a very nice job of hiding responsibility.

    The process that may have resulted in the explosion appeared to have been approved by the MMS (Minerals Management Service). The head of the MMS later resigned (or was fired)... :confused:

    In the end, the government had been approving these deep water lease sales and drilling and had waved more substantial blow out preventors (self powered vs rig powered--rig blew up, lost electrical/hydraulic connections and could not block well head) because the "powers that be" said that a major blowout was very unlikely.

    Sort of like the first space shuttle disaster when a committee ruled that it was OK to launch in subfreezing temperatures even though the rocket manufacturer said that the solid fuel boosters could fail if launched when frozen.

    It is complex and new technology--and there will be honest engineering mistake made--but running these things by committees (gov and corp) will guarantee some really big mistakes.

    I don't want to see BP raked over the coals--but some pain (including bankruptcy) is a valid path for those that take big risks and don't have a backup plan for when things do fail (Murphy's Law--and Murphy was an optimist).

    My issue is that while there is (at least in theory) avialable pain and punishment for private sector foul-ups (a dozen people where killed in this explosion)--I really fear that there will not be similar sanctions against folks in the government that were hand in hand (and hand in pocket) with BP/"Big Oil" in this mess.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • solar_davesolar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,384 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Gulf of Mexico oil spill of 2010 - Have We Learned Anyhting?

    Interesting that BP has tried to talk to Anadarko (SP) about their 25% share of the well and what liability that might send their way.

    http://www.cnbc.com/id/37644556
  • solarvicsolarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,060 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Gulf of Mexico oil spill of 2010 - Have We Learned Anyhting?

    I buy bp gasoline for my car and will continue to do so. I hope BP survives as if they don,t China is there with thier checkbook ready to buy them at a bargain. probably go out farther out in the ocean and drill where we have no control and we will still betaking same risk on our shores. S:Dlarvic
  • AntronXAntronX Solar Expert Posts: 462 ✭✭
    Re: Gulf of Mexico oil spill of 2010 - Have We Learned Anyhting?

    Hey guys, take a look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZHnStD690U
    Make sure to watch the end for best part. Comments?
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Gulf of Mexico oil spill of 2010 - Have We Learned Anyhting?

    i think rights are being violated. i've been thinking that for many moons though.
    new link.
    http://www.wdsu.com/video/23877998/index.html
  • 885kcdtq885kcdtq Solar Expert Posts: 27
    Re: Gulf of Mexico oil spill of 2010 - Have We Learned Anyhting?

    Fact or fiction? I do not know.
    My sources in Haliburton are telling me this all could have been prevented 4 days before the disaster. Haliburton pulled all of their staff off the platform days before it went down. The driller, god rest his soul, informed family members that he may not make it home.<heresay
    All other information and facts around the root cause of it are not available to the public as yet. I am sure, being in the oilfield myself, that they had to have taken on an uncontrollable pressure kick. The weakest link whether it be a valve, pipe, fitting on surface or a failure of the BOP itself. When all the info is available we will all know. It saddens me to see anyone lose their lives on any platform.
    I have freinds of friends that went down on the Ocean Ranger. Their memories live on forever.

    We do have to wein ourselves from oil dependance. No doubt about it.
    Just rummage through your garbage someday. How much plastic did you toss out this week? Aluminum pop cans? Do you recycle? Do you compost? Copper from your failed wiring attempt. Where did it go?
    I AM NOT AN ANGEL!! All these questions I have some not so good answers for.
    The long and short of it, at least we are thinking about it.. Now we all have to start doing. "Living with less and to he!! with all the stuff. When it all comes tumbling down, none of the STUFF will be of any use anyway. I just hope my children, and grandchildren can survive the evolution to no more oil.
  • System2System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    Re: Gulf of Mexico oil spill of 2010 - Have We Learned Anyhting?

    Go to my website

    I have been working on this technology since 1998 and I have put a website
    devoted to the technology. It is not so much that oil is bad and has caused this
    environmental mess. Oil, Gas, Hydrogen, Solar, geothermal, electric vehicles, hydrogen vehicles are all part of the solution over the long term. The thing I believe we will be moving toward a decentralized energy sector, and one that is not controlled by the Oil and Gas sector. The issue with Hydrogen is that they are having issues storing large quantities of hydrogen. So how does the hydrogen car market get off the ground. The ability to store large quantities of hydrogen had not been determined as yet. Obviously, if they had solved this issue the majors would have already gotten this out on the market. They are not hung up on oil, but right now they can not store large quantities of hydrogen in order to market the product. Otherwise, we would be seeing hydrogen stations, or more of them. I personally don't feel that will ever happen. However, we can generate hydrogen
    thru Solar Electrolysis, at least enough to power our hydrogen powered vehicles on a daily basis and at least enough for the commuter market vs electric vehicles
    for the commuter market. I think hydrogen wins that battle over the long term.
    Obviously, you have to stop and recharge your battery at a recharge station. With a few large hydrogen solar power stations off an interstate we get around that issue in a few minutes. However, hydrogen is a volatile fuel (really a transfer energy).

    I believe this is where we are headed over the long term.


    Hydrogen Vehicles June 27, 2010




    SOLAR HYDRO
    If we do not come up with inspiration to help solve the worlds problems
    then we lose the very influence we had sought to gain.
    (John Kennedy - November 1963)

    FUEL CELLS
    A - TYPES OF FUEL CELLS
    HOW DOES A FUEL CELL WORK?
    Basically, fuel cells are batteries. This concept gets somewhat confusing. Electric vehicles per say are also powered by batteries which can also be generated by Solar Cells. The difference with electric vehicles powered by hydrogen is the hydrogen generates electricity by eletrochemical reactions. It consists of two electrodes, anode and cathode, which surround electrolyte in the cell.


    The electrolyte is a composition of various chemical compounds, which include catalysts. When hydrogen (H2) is fed into the cell with oxygen (O2), chemical reactions take place in the electrolyte and the reaction rates are increased by catalysts which, therefore enable the fuel cell to generate sufficient power.

    Basic layout of a fuel cell H2 is fed into the anode of the cell while O2 enters the cell through the cathode. By reactions, H2 atoms split into protons (+ve) and electrons (-ve), which we will call charge carriers. When protons and electrons flow to cathodes in different directions it creates an electrical current and hence electricity.




    Phosphoric Acid cells are the most common type of fuel cell used in the automotive industry. It operates at a temperature in the range of 400 degrees fahrenheit and provides up to 40% efficiency compared to 30% for most EV vehicles. High efficiency allows it to be used in large and heavy loaded vehicles.


    Proton exchange membranes operate at a lower temperature (around 200 degrees farenheit) and they can vary their output quickly to cope with a sudden power demand and hence it is suitable for an automobile which requires quick starts.


    Molten Carbonate cells are highly efficient electrical power units and have operating temperatures of around 1200 degrees fahrenheit.


    Solid oxide fuel cells are used in high power applications such as industrial scale power stations. This type of fuel cell can generate up to 100 kilowatts of electrical power and has an effeciency rating of around 60 percent. Since the fuel is in solid form, the operating temperature can reach 1800 degrees fahenheit.


    Alkaline fuel cells have very high effenciency of about 70 percent. However, the cost of of manufacture is so high that it is not applicable for commercial use.


    STRUCTURE OF A HYDROGEN POWERED ELECTRIC VEHICLE
    The basic setup of the hydrogen vehicle maintains the control system in the front of the vehicle and the fuel storage tank is in the rear of the vehicle.




    For different types of vehicles the layout of power control units will not be the same. As the engine size is greatly reduced, the size of the fuel storage compartments can be increased. There is no uniformity currently for the hydrogen fuel storage compartments. As an example the fuel storage compartment in a Mercedes 190 will not also work in the Honda EV as a fuel storage compartment. Without such uniformity in the EV marketplace there can be no reasonable expectations for growth in the hydrogen EV marketplace. That is where the concept of Solar Powered hydrogen Stations come into play.

    The need for SOLAR HYDRO SERVICE STATIONS while a concept today has much potential. Hydrogen generated Service Stations will be needed as the incremental growth of hydrogen powered vehicles comes into the Automotive marketplace and contrary to Oil and Gas executives this is coming on faster than any of us expect.

    this has been edited by niel as you are openly soliciting for investors in a business arrangement and that is not allowed here. a complaint was levied against you and with your violation of the rules you will be banned as a result.
    niel
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Gulf of Mexico oil spill of 2010 - Have We Learned Anyhting?

    rowellc,
    glad to hear you are trying to help solve some of the problems, but from what i recall is that in addition to the storage problems hydrogen presents is that there is too much energy expended to produce the hydrogen. can you elaborate on the amount of kwh you expend to produce xx btus' worth of hydrogen?
  • dwhdwh Solar Expert Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭
    Re: Gulf of Mexico oil spill of 2010 - Have We Learned Anyhting?

    Good answers have been known for decades...orbital solar satellites with microwave power down-links, and thermal wave reactors on the surface to burn up the radioactive waste from fission reactors.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_satellite

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traveling_wave_reactor


    Both the US and Japan have been working on SBSP for years, and the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation is funding work on thermal wave reactors. We've got enough radioactive waste right now to power a continent for 100 years from thermal wave reactors.

    http://www.ted.com/talks/bill_gates.html
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Gulf of Mexico oil spill of 2010 - Have We Learned Anyhting?

    i don't give much credence to the microwave solution. for for it to work there will be huge power levels of microwaves bombarding the earth (popcorn anybody?:cry::p) and unfortunately there is a loss of this power as well to travel from space to the earth's surface. the atmosphere too will degrade the amount of power hitting the earth's surface as it is not being given a free pass just because it isn't in the wavelengths for light. microwaves are just very short wavelengths of radio waves and they characteristically expand in area as they travel. this degradation is far more severe than most of you realize for if there is say 20w/m^2 of power at for example 1000ft distance from the satellite then at 2000ft the power level will be about 5w/m^2. double the distance is 1/4 the power and this would occur all of the way to the ground from space. does some reach here? the answer is yes, but it is greatly weakened. you don't believe me? look at all of the high powered tv and radio stations there are especially in urban areas many of which have power levels in the 5kw to 50kw range. this is a great deal of power and if the space microwave idea were very feasible then we should be able to rectify and use terrestrial radio powers as well. try it as you won't get much as much of it winds up in the microvolt range by the time it reaches you and there is far more terrestrial power being radiated for tv and radio than anybody could hope to send via a satellite.
    imo anybody that gives hope or seeks support ($) for this microwave idea is either a scammer or being scammed.
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,464 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Gulf of Mexico oil spill of 2010 - Have We Learned Anyhting?
    niel wrote: »
    i don't give much credence to the microwave solution. for for it to work there will be huge power levels of microwaves bombarding the earth (popcorn anybody?:cry::p) and unfortunately there is a loss of this power as well to travel from space to the earth's surface. the atmosphere too will degrade the amount of power hitting the earth's surface as it is not being given a free pass just because it isn't in the wavelengths for light. ......

    Microwaves behave very differently than light.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_satellite#Microwave_power_transmission
    >80% power in the '70s is nearly as good as long distance HV wires.

    Popcorn ? NO. :
    At the Earth's surface, a suggested microwave beam would have a maximum intensity at its center, of 23 mW/cm2 (less than 1/4 the solar irradiation constant), and an intensity of less than 1 mW/cm2 outside of the rectenna fenceline (the receiver's perimeter).[53] These compare with current United States Occupational Safety and Health Act (OSHA) workplace exposure limits for microwaves, which are 10 mW/cm2,[66] - the limit itself being expressed in voluntary terms and ruled unenforceable for Federal OSHA enforcement purposes.[citation needed] A beam of this intensity is therefore at its center, of a similar magnitude to current safe workplace levels, even for long term or indefinite exposure. Outside the receiver, it is far less than the OSHA long-term levels[67] Over 95% of the beam energy will fall on the rectenna.

    Our quest for oil has involved how many birds so far ?
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Gulf of Mexico oil spill of 2010 - Have We Learned Anyhting?

    sorry mike as i'm not seeing the difference in behavior being spelled out there, but i don't see there would be very much difference. it is true the clouds, rain, dirt, etc may have a greater impact on the amount of light getting through, but microwaves are prone as well and may vary more specifically by wavelength. overall there isn't a big difference, but i was referring to what the microwaves themselves would encounter in this idea.
    i also wasn't even thinking about the safe radiation limits the government sets forth, but to be within acceptable range of safety would also mean a negligible amount of power recouped. as a sidenote the sun exceeds safe radiation levels. go figure.:confused::roll::p
    in any case you mention about beaming and a beam helps, but these are not exacting either and have great losses that will still degrade over distances. it simply will not work well enough to justify putting a satellite in space for.
  • dwhdwh Solar Expert Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭
    Re: Gulf of Mexico oil spill of 2010 - Have We Learned Anyhting?
    niel wrote: »
    imo anybody that gives hope or seeks support ($) for this microwave idea is either a scammer or being scammed.

    You are saying that Dr. Landis and others at Nasa are scammers, or fools being scammed. Nothing personal, but I don't believe that for a moment.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoffrey_A._Landis

    "Geoffrey A. Landis (born May 28, 1955, Detroit, Michigan) is an American scientist, working for the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) on planetary exploration, interstellar propulsion, solar power and photovoltaics. He has patented eight designs for solar cells and photovoltaic devices and has given presentations and commentary on the possibilities for interstellar travel and construction of bases on the Moon and Mars."


    http://gltrs.grc.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/GLTRS/browse.pl?2004/TM-2004-212743.html


    And:

    http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&q=author%3ALandis+author%3AGeoffrey&btnG=Search&as_subj=
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,464 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Gulf of Mexico oil spill of 2010 - Have We Learned Anyhting?
    niel wrote: »
    i don't give much credence to the microwave solution. ......


    Is there a solution that you prefer ?
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Gulf of Mexico oil spill of 2010 - Have We Learned Anyhting?

    mike,
    no, as i only pointed out my view for the problems the microwave idea would encounter. as i said terrestrial levels are higher than one would get from space so see if you can reap some radio/tv energy if you can.

    dwh,
    "You are saying that Dr. Landis and others at Nasa are scammers, or fools being scammed."

    yes, i am. in this case they are scamming because they are viing for government funding for projects that will never pan out.
  • AntronXAntronX Solar Expert Posts: 462 ✭✭
    Re: Gulf of Mexico oil spill of 2010 - Have We Learned Anyhting?
    mike90045 wrote: »
    ... >80% power in the '70s is nearly as good as long distance HV wires...

    So they captured 80% of RF wave power? Or 80% of original electrical power?

    FM broadcast RF tubes convert at best only 76% of electricity into RF power. Then there is absorption of RF wave by water in atmosphere. Then they must have RF rectifier losses at receiver end. Then inverter loss to generate AC current for the grid. By the time they are done with all the losses, placing same solar panels on the ground with 96% efficient grid-tie inverter is much cheaper and much more efficient.
  • solarixsolarix Solar Expert Posts: 713 ✭✭
    Re: Gulf of Mexico oil spill of 2010 - Have We Learned Anyhting?

    What have we learned?
    - We are taking extreme risks to continue our addiction to "cheap" oil.
    - Change will not happen until the cost of oil is greater than the cost of alternatives.
    - We are closer than ever to the Apocalypse.
    - Politicians do not have answers.
    - Corporations and other large organizations are not to be trusted.
    - No matter how "safe" I am - cause "I've got solar power",
    I'm ruined when everyone else is.

    On the other hand,
    - Ever checked out the alcohol fuel solution? permaculture.com
    - There are solutions to our problems, but change is hard of course.
    - Change is good once you do the hard work to get out in front of it.
    - I don't know about you, but the morning here is beautiful right now.
    - Always remember that we are but favored specks in the universe,
    that "it" is not about you and we may as well dedicate ourselves to being a blessing to others, hope for the best and enjoy the adventure.
  • System2System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    Re: Gulf of Mexico oil spill of 2010 - Have We Learned Anyhting?

    Good point about petroleum and its portability and energy concentration. I don't think that the nature of fuels and energy is very well understood by most folks, including friends I have that are off-grid. As a society we are squandering the fossil fuels on things that could be generated by renewables, like most home electronics and lighting. Gasoline needs to be saved for the aircraft and things that need the real power that petroleum provides.

    As an aside, I just installed your Rogue MPT-3024 last week and I am really impressed. Excellent product.
  • bmetbmet Solar Expert Posts: 630 ✭✭
    Re: Gulf of Mexico oil spill of 2010 - Have We Learned Anyhting?

    Would it surprise you to learn that the failure was not caused by BP, but a faulty product manufactured by an independent subcontractor? Who is responsible then?
    BB. wrote: »
    You will probably find that all of the bureaucracies (government and corporate) have done a very nice job of hiding responsibility.

    The process that may have resulted in the explosion appeared to have been approved by the MMS (Minerals Management Service). The head of the MMS later resigned (or was fired)... :confused:

    In the end, the government had been approving these deep water lease sales and drilling and had waved more substantial blow out preventors (self powered vs rig powered--rig blew up, lost electrical/hydraulic connections and could not block well head) because the "powers that be" said that a major blowout was very unlikely.

    Sort of like the first space shuttle disaster when a committee ruled that it was OK to launch in subfreezing temperatures even though the rocket manufacturer said that the solid fuel boosters could fail if launched when frozen.

    It is complex and new technology--and there will be honest engineering mistake made--but running these things by committees (gov and corp) will guarantee some really big mistakes.

    I don't want to see BP raked over the coals--but some pain (including bankruptcy) is a valid path for those that take big risks and don't have a backup plan for when things do fail (Murphy's Law--and Murphy was an optimist).

    My issue is that while there is (at least in theory) avialable pain and punishment for private sector foul-ups (a dozen people where killed in this explosion)--I really fear that there will not be similar sanctions against folks in the government that were hand in hand (and hand in pocket) with BP/"Big Oil" in this mess.

    -Bill
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Gulf of Mexico oil spill of 2010 - Have We Learned Anyhting?

    even though the ones that manufactured the faulty stuff bear some obvious blame and should not be exonerated, bp still has blame as they chose who to do business with and had the ability to verify they were getting what they were asking for. one cannot pass the buck totally for bp is responsible for who they do business with. what was that mexican restaurant that got the tainted veggies? i think it was chilles (spelling?). anyway, they are now out of business because they were responsible for who they did business with in procuring the foodstuffs for their restaurants. it wasn't our say so as to where they got the stuff from or what the quality is. same with bp as it was their decision.
  • solar_davesolar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,384 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Gulf of Mexico oil spill of 2010 - Have We Learned Anyhting?

    If your talking the blow out preventor, then BP is still to blame. They knew the preventer was broken and continued to move forward on the well. BP ran the well, owned the well, decided how to create the well and ultimately cause the well to blow out. BP knew well in advanced the preventor was in trouble, the back up secondary servos were broken/nonfunctional and that the pipe was moved during a test. They knew rubber from the preventor came up in the drill mud and decided to keep going out of greed, i.e. the cost to have the rig in use for a longer period while the problem was fixed. Granted Trans Ocean owned the rig but it sounds like BP was making the calls as it was on their dime.
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