Birds and Wind Generators:

System

Hello.

What is the story behind wind generators and birds. I can find articles where they do kill birds or affect their flying patterns and then in another article I hear wind generators are safe.

Can anyone clear this up for me?

Thanks,

Simon

mike95490

Re: Birds and Wind Generators:

I think the older wind gen (Cuisinart's ?) ran at very high RPM's and the blades disappear from view, then you get shredded eagle. Newer ones have slower RPM's, and with intelligent site location, aren't nearly the earlier hazard.

Some inadvertent contact is inevitable, but where should the fuzzy line be drawn - no power to the kid on a ventilator, or save the fruit bats so the guano can fertilize the army ant breeding grounds ?

BB.

Re: Birds and Wind Generators:

Probably depends who you ask:
http://www.ucsusa.org/publications/earthwise/sum04-earthwise-wind-turbines-and-birds.html

Wind power offers many environmental benefits compared with fossil fuels, but no energy source is completely free of environmental impact. It is true that birds can be killed when they fly into the blades or towers of wind turbines, but most fatalities occur at older turbines. These devices, most prevalent in California, have fast-moving blades and lattice tower structures that proved to be an attractive nesting and perching spot for birds.

Fortunately, significant progress has been made in reducing bird fatalities. Newer turbines typically feature slower-moving blades and tubular steel towers that reduce opportunities for perching and nesting. These turbines are also much larger than earlier models, allowing wind developers to use fewer, more dispersed turbines at a given site. Developers are also more conscious now of how their choice of site for a new wind farm can minimize its impact on local and migratory bird populations.

A recent study concluded that approximately 33,000 birds were killed at U.S. wind farms in 2001, and the vast majority of fatalities occurred at older sites. Even if wind power supplied all of the United States' energy needs, wind turbines would constitute only a small fraction of the estimated 200 million to 500 million annual bird fatalities attributable to human activity (e.g., vehicles, buildings and windows, power lines, communication towers, airplanes, house cats).

Of course, it depends on where the turbines are built, how they are built, and what the species are in the are of the turbines built (Altamont Pss is about an hour's drive from my home):
http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/programs/bdes/altamont/altamont.html

Wind turbines at the Altamont Pass Wind Resource Area (APWRA) kill more birds of prey than any other wind facility in North America, due to their location on a major bird migratory route in an area with high concentrations of raptors, including the highest density of breeding golden eagles in the world. Research by raptor experts for the California Energy Commission (CEC) indicates that each year, Altamont Pass wind turbines kill an estimated 881 to 1,300 birds of prey, including more than 75 golden eagles, several hundred red-tailed hawks, several hundred burrowing owls, and hundreds of additional raptors including American kestrels, great horned owls, ferruginous hawks, and barn owls. These kills of over 40 different bird species are in violation of federal and state wildlife protection laws such as the Bald Eagle and Golden Eagle Protection Act, Migratory Bird Treaty Act, and several California Fish and Game Code provisions. View a fact sheet on the Altamont Pass bird kill issue.

So, kill the rodents to reduce the numbers of birds of prey (less food less birds--less birds to kill--hmmm), but then this kills off the endangered Kit Fox population in the area too:
http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/programs/bdes/altamont/factsheet.pdf

The APWRA was established in 1982 and contains 5,400 wind turbines. The APWRA has the highest
numbers and rates of raptor kills of any wind facility in the world. The bird kill fiasco at Altamont
Pass is a result of poor planning that allowed wind turbines to be built along a major raptor migration
corridor in an area with high wintering concentrations of raptors and in the heart of the highest
concentration of golden eagles in North America. Wind turbines at Altamont Pass kill an estimated
880 to 1,300 birds of prey each year, including up to 116 golden eagles, 300 red-tailed hawks, 380
burrowing owls, and additional hundreds of other raptors including kestrels, falcons, vultures, and
other owl species.

In the end, if you are talking about the system in ColOmbia--Your one or two towers is going to be much less than the thousands of wind turbines at Altamont Pass.

Using the numbers above, each (huge) wind turbine above in California will kill, on average:

1,300 birds / 5,400 wind turbines = 0.24 birds per year...

You can go that route--less than one bird killed per turbine/year vs the 1,000+ residents that you are trying to supply with clean water.

Sorry (or is this gladly), the lone (and small) wind turbine will probably not be a significant source of mortality in most areas. However, if you have perching birds in your area--a typical latticework wind turbine tower will attract birds to the tower--and increase the bird mortality around the tower. Also, smaller wind turbines spin faster--more difficult for birds to avoid. But the smaller turbines have less blade sweep area--less chance for birds to get hit.

Now, you can overlay the fact that they wind turbines in Altamont pass are primarily turning during a summer time wind source (hot/dry interior valleys drawing cool/wet coastal marine layer from Pacific Ocean--reason SF is famous for its summertime fog), or about 1/4 of the year (flyways should be relatively unpopulated). What are the conditions in your proposed site. What is your desired outcome (diesel, wind, solar, or what).

-Bill

System2

Re: Birds and Wind Generators:

Nice spelling of Colombia Bill. Who said Americans don't know their geography.

The question was more of curiosity since we have basically given up the idea of using Wind. I have talked to various wind / solar experts and I always seem to get a different response about the birds and wind generators.

In our situation, the main attraction of the national park are the birds including flamingos. I understand the logic of slower wind generators being safer than the fast ones of the past but I still see a wind generator creating issues due to the noise it emitts let alone a dumb bird running into the blades.

In the end, it does not matter, because as we discussed in another part of this forum, it will be too expensive and complicated.

Thanks for the info.

As for the diesel solution, stay tuned ...

Simon

System2

Re: Birds and Wind Generators:

sorry if this was mentioned in this article or one of the links but a skim didnt see it: part of what started this whole thing was a certain windfarm install in CA that was placed right in the middle of a bird migration path (so who's fault is that?) and it got a lot of attention. i forget details but am pretty sure it was CA (Bill?)

coal burning power plants don't affect a thing though. :roll:

BB.

Re: Birds and Wind Generators:

As far as I know--the birds getting killed were generally not migratory birds... Plus the ridge line wind turbines really only spin much during the summer--again, when there is not much migratory bird activity.

The predatory birds are more affected (I would guess), because they soar on the wind currents (updrafts)--right where turbine placement would be ideal (there used to be a couple of glider fields out there because of the great uplift--may still be--but wives and airplanes don't usually mix well ).

In the end, this is all NIMBY (not in my back yard) anyway. If you look around, windmills actually cause local climate change too (OMG :-o ). The bring down the ground air temperature by a few degrees because of the mixing of upper level winds with the more still air near the ground.

Just let me know which side you want me to argue.

Coal: It is great, a concentrated form of energy that when cleanly burned (new plants are getting very good, especially at removing mercury and other heavy metals--makes the issue of CFL's, which use mercury and sometimes even a bit of radionuclide's, even more questionable), that the US has a 250+ year supply. It costs 1/6 the cost of natural gas when burned for electricity, the ash can be sent back to the mines where it was originally taken. Coal can also be converted to liquid fuels, further reducing the US's foreign oil demand. The CO2 emissions are really just a fertalizer and are not a pollution. CO2 from natural sources swamps the 3-4% of CO2 generated my mankind. CO2 is a lagging indicator of global warming by hundreds-thousands of years vs temperature via current Ice Core samples (one theory is that CO2 is released by warming seas). Methane, on the other hand is 10's of times more "potent" as a "green house" gas (by the way, "green house" is the wrong metaphor for global warming by CO2+Methane--it was proven over 100 years ago that glass--pass short wave IR, blocks long wave IR--vs rock salt, IR transparent--have the same interior temperature rise--it is the prevention of mixing of air with convective and wind currents is the reason a green house warms). Also, Methane is a much more potent "green house" gas then CO2 and is has more "green house" effect in our atmosphere than CO2 does now, or ever will have. Termites are the #1 source of Methane in the atmosphere--and raising beef cattle adds much more "green house" effect via "cow burps" than the entire world use of fossil fuels today (by a factor of several times--per the latest IPC report). There are also huge methane hydrate deposits around the world near the continental shelves that have been collecting for millennia--one theory is the global Ice Age(s) dropped the sea levels by enough that the methane hydrates decomposed and "burped" enough methane back into the atmosphere to end the Ice Ages....

Coal: Oh my God, it is raping the environment. Coal, in ground, is relatively water resistant. Once mined, what is left can leach all sorts of bad things into the water table and local streams. There are waste water dams that are in poor shape in West Virginia, and other places, just waiting to fail. Also, many times coal is ground up and sent by slurry lines to the power station else where. Using millions of gallons of precious Western US fresh water for cheap bulk transportation of the fuel. Once burned, the fly ash is a hazardous waste and difficult to dispose of safely. No matter how may scrubbers coal fired stations install, old ones (and especially those outside of the US) still emit heavy metals, produce collected waste products that themselves are difficult to safely dispose, and believe it or not, more nuclear radiation than the nuclear power plants in the US do today. Also, there is a theory that releasing the radionuclide's from their fixed location in a coal seam, can actually produce free Plutonium into the environment (obviously, something not to be taken lightly). Obviously, mining and strip mining of coal permanently changes the land and, at best, leaves it to the US government and taxpayers to clean up these messes. Also, coal burning electrical power plants take days to generate electricity from a cold start. The coal (and nuclear) power plants are difficult to efficiently throttle (wrt fuel use) and make Wind Power difficult to effectively integrate into the national power grid. Texas has found that they can only reduce their large Coal and Nuclear power plants back by 3% of a wind farm's nameplate rating. So, in most cases, the grid today has no effective way of utilizing wind power because it is so variable--ends up that the coal/nuclear fuel is still burned anyway even when wind is available to offset fossil fuel use.

How is that--Arguments 'R Us! :-P (not trying to start an environmental war here).

-Bill

System2

Re: Birds and Wind Generators:

oh gosh, :-o
i try not to get into that anymore, not productive. sometimes i bite though as is evident.

re: the birds, i was referring to a specific windfarm in CA that had a lot of notoriety, it was covered or at least mentioned in editorials in home power often. it was as someone said, cuisinart city

BB.

Re: Birds and Wind Generators:

It is possible... The fields are sometimes managed in such a way as to attract birds--both for migration and hunting.

Pretty much anything we do on a small scale is not going to to much to the earth... However, anytime humans do something on a large scale--there are always intended and unintended consequences.

With the coal thing--I was just having fun...

I am more of the "conservation" kind of person. Don't waste anything. Save fossil fuels because they are too dear to waste--not because of global warming -- or the full employment for scientists, bureaucrats, and environmentalists act.

But how do we balance that against the "western lifestyle"... I don't have the magic answers for that. Almost anything we try is going to be at the cost of our freedoms we enjoy today.

-Bill

BB.

Re: Birds and Wind Generators:

I forgot about bats too:

http://www.buffalonews.com/nationalworld/state/story/87833.html

ALBANY — While generating megawatts of electricity, windmills on the Tug Hill Plateau in northern New York are also killing hundreds of bats and birds, according to a recent study.

The consultants’ report for PPM Energy and Horizon Energy identified 123 birds, mostly night migrants, and 326 bats found dead over the course of five months last year beneath 50 wind turbines on the plateau between Lake Ontario and the western Adirondacks.

Looks like this this wind farm has a higher "kill" rate than the one near me.

-Bill

BB.

Re: Birds and Wind Generators:

More numbers:

http://www.capecodonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070530/NEWS/705300311/-1/NEWS01

Human-caused bird deaths

Domestic cats: Hundreds of millions a year

* Striking high-tension lines: 130 million - 1 billion a year
* Striking buildings: 97 million to 976 million a year
* Cars: 80 million a year
* Toxic chemicals: 72 million
* Striking communications towers: 4 to 50 million a year
* Wind turbines: 20,000 to 37,000

Source: National Research Council

Numbers are probably almost meaningless (error bars of 10x or more). But a local wind turbine does not seem to be the worst thing in the world.

-Bill

niel

Re: Birds and Wind Generators:

you know it's funny how some people think as i never heard anybody say to tear down a ferris wheel or to stop driving cars and trucks because birds are getting killed. heck don't put up your house as in its lifetime about 15-20 birds will fly into it and die. birds are not always the smartest or most gracefull creatures just as some people too i would think. it would be different though if directly placed into the known path of birds, but if they won't stop to consider to not erect a home in their path then the wind genny is no different imho.

BB.

Re: Birds and Wind Generators:

Well, there is the Bussard Fission Fussion Reactor just looking for a few million dollars (by the way, this is not a joke post in the sense that this is real proposal with the US Navy):

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/2007/03/mr-fusion.html

The Bussard Fusion Reactor will lower electrical costs at the busbar by at least 10X over coal or fission nuke power plants. Capital cost for electrical plants using the Bussard Fusion design will decline by at least 5X mainly because no turbines, condensers, steam generators or electrical generators are required. With such a lowering of costs and simplicity of required equipment, roll out will be very fast.

The reactor is just a big sphere surrounded by electro-magnets. The main cost of the plant is converting the 2 million volts DC output to AC for local use. The direct 2 million volt output would be great for long distance transmission. Although the plants could be sited in just about any reasonably sized electrical yard since any required cooling would not require a water supply. Air cooling would work fine.

The power generator is about 10 to 12 ft across for an output between 100 MW and 1,000 MW. Power output scales as the 7th power of size. Double the size and you get 128X as much power.

-Bill

niel

Re: Birds and Wind Generators:

wow, and i've got a bridge to sell them too, but knowing them they probably spent it already on office space in wtc7.

System2

Re: Birds and Wind Generators:

BB, I absolutely LOVED your arguments for and against coal. Outstanding, a great read, well done!

And Niel, your statement; "birds are not always the smartest or most gracefull creatures" is so true, Many summer evenings I watch partridge come barreling out of the dusk, past my house and literally crash land at full speed, head first into the trees and bushes behind the house. Once, I happened to be walking around the end of the house and one came around the corner like a bat-out-of-hell, like a giant out of control bumble bee on steroids, heading straight for my face, apparently using memory rather than sight to navigate. I ducked, it tried to lurch sideways, but still sideswiped the side of my head, knocking my cap off and continued to it's "normal" violent evening crash into the low trees. I really don't know how they avoid breaking their necks. Down the road, one actually came right through the window and into the living room of a wonderful little 98 year old lady, who took it all in stride, broken glass, feathers and all. The bird however ended up on her dinner plate the next day. :-D
Wayne

BB.

Re: Birds and Wind Generators:

Apparently there is a large Wind Power trade fair/conference going on in LA right now... Here are the links (from Instapundant):

http://instapundit.com/archives2/006021.php (original source)

I saw your post this morning about Wind Power, and I thought you might like to know that the American Wind Energy Association (our client) is currently putting on Windpower 2007, the industry’s huge convention and trade show. We had a number of bloggers attend and provide coverage, and thought you might be interested in a couple of good posts:

http://www.greenoptions.com/blog/2007/06/06/executive_ramblings_inside_windpower_2007_part_1

http://www.ecogeek.org/content/view/693/

AWEA also did a Flickr feed for the event and a YouTube channel which has some great video of some of the expert discussions.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/awea/

http://www.youtube.com/WINDPOWER2007

--I have not gone through the links--but wanted to post quickly in case anyone wanted to head by LA--today is the last day (sorry).

You can go here for other events by AWEA:

http://www.awea.org/events/

-Bill