Xantrex XW GT Connection

mnittlermnittler Solar Expert Posts: 63 ✭✭✭
Am I understanding the Xantrex XW inverter correctly?
Does the Xantrex XW inverter actually sell power back to the grid after the batteries are full? (If being charged from other source (solar, wind, hydro)
The XW will power the Inverter AC Distribution panel from the grid if present and if the grid fails until the batteries get drained to a certain point?
Can you connect a generator to the generator AC inputs with Grid power present?
Which AC source does the inverter select first Grid or Generator?
Can the XW be used with nothing connected to the Inverter AC distribution panel out if desired and it will just act like a normal GT inverter and import as much as required to satisfy the loads or Export if Solar and Wind is greater than consumption?
Could you connect another GT inverter between the utility and XW on the AC in lines?
Does the XW charge the batteries as long as there is AC present on the AC in? (or does the XW rely on Solar, Wind, Hydro to charge the batteries?)
Can the XW be connected/programmed in such a way as to use stored battery power during the night?
I am just trying to understand if the XW is the correct most versatile inverter to use for grid tie and backup.:D
19.76kw Solar/GT Enphase IQ7+ MicroInverters
 5.40kw Solar/GT ABB/Aurora 300 MicroInverters (AC coupled to Schneider/Xantrex XW6048 output)
 6.00kw Solar/Hybrid Xantrex XW6048 Inverter w/2 strings Trojan L-16E-AC Batteries (48VDC)
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Comments

  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,212 admin
    Re: Xantrex XW GT Connection Questions

    I will give a shot at the answers:
    mnittler wrote: »
    Does the Xantrex XW inverter actually sell power back to the grid after the batteries are full? (If being charged from other source (solar, wind, hydro)
    In GT mode--very simple. Set the sell voltage at, for example 54 VDC. At 54 VDC, the GT inverter sells 50% of its capacity to grid. At 55 VDC, the GT inverter sells 100% of its capacity to grid. At 55.5 VDC, still sells 100% capacity to grid. (using made-up numbers, and the control loop may be more sophisticated--but does give a quick understanding of how it should work).
    The XW will power the Inverter AC Distribution panel from the grid if present and if the grid fails until the batteries get drained to a certain point?
    Yes. The XW Inverter is very much like a giant UPS (uniterruptable power supply).
    Can you connect a generator to the generator AC inputs with Grid power present?
    There is an AC1 connection for Grid Power (and buy/sell of AC power occurs through this port).

    There is also an AC2 Connection which uses the Generator Power to run the protected/backed-up AC loads, plus there is a programmable battery charger in the XW Hybrid inverter that can use Generator power to recharge the battery bank (pretty sophisticated charger--can be setup to take less power from the generator if there is more power required by the loads--basically, you can set the maximum generator current and the inverter/charger will split the loads if needed).
    Which AC source does the inverter select first Grid or Generator?
    Normal operation would default to AC1 (grid) connection.

    I do not know the programming details if other options are available (such as stop taking grid power between noon-6pm when power if very expensive).
    Can the XW be used with nothing connected to the Inverter AC distribution panel out if desired and it will just act like a normal GT inverter and import as much as required to satisfy the loads or Export if Solar and Wind is greater than consumption?
    I believe so--You can configure it to take your DC power sources (wind and water) and GT that power back to the grid (once the battery voltage is above the "sell point".
    Could you connect another GT inverter between the utility and XW on the AC in lines?
    The standard connection would be to connect the XW inverter to the breaker panel and do both GT and Off-Grid (UPS) function with Generator Backup like normal.

    You can connect other GT only inverters to the AC mains panel and get more Grid Tied power for Net Metered utilities (say, a 4kW XW Hybrid inverter (with wind, water, solar to battery bank) plus a 5 kW GT inverter + array).

    The back driven connection would be to have a 6kW XW Hybrid Inverter and connect your 5kW (or less) GT inverter to the XW Hybrid Inverters protected output (its UPS output)--then we get into the whole issue of how to charge control the battery bank since the XW cannot do that when back driven.
    Does the XW charge the batteries as long as there is AC present on the AC in? (or does the XW rely on Solar, Wind, Hydro to charge the batteries?)
    I would guess that is programmable. Something along the lines the XW "sells" power above 54 VDC, and would only recharge the battery bank if 1) there is grid power present) and 2) if the battery bank fell below the "re-bulk" voltage level (say below 50 VDC).
    Can the XW be connected/programmed in such a way as to use stored battery power during the night?
    Obviously, in off-grid mode--that would be normal operation.

    I don't know the On-Grid options--I would have to read through the XW Hybrid Inverter's various manuals.

    I am not a big fan of shifting a Grid connected home to battery power for part of the day (say load shifting so that you do not pull Grid Power between noon-6pm during summer peak power pricing). I think it wears the batteries out sooner (in a another thread, assuming 25% bank cycling, the battery wear out was ~$0.14 per kWhr--and if you already had an XW setup, assumed 10 year standby life and 5 year cycle life using Trojan battery bank, it was about a $0.07 per kWhr extra cost).
    I am just trying to understand if the XW is the correct most versatile inverter to use for grid tie and backup.:D
    It is very versatile. Also, you forgot to add that it supports 120/240 VAC 60 Hz split phase circuits (North American standard for homes/small businesses) without any extra hardware.

    I think I have answered the above correctly--I do not work for Xantrex. :roll:

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • crewzercrewzer Registered Users, Solar Expert Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Xantrex XW GT Connection
    Am I understanding the Xantrex XW inverter correctly?
    Does the Xantrex XW inverter actually sell power back to the grid after the batteries are full? (If being charged from other source (solar, wind, hydro)
    The XW can sell back to the grid. When "Grid Support" is enabled and "Sell" is enabled, all available excess power is first used to power local (downstream AC) loads, and any excess is exported (sold) to the grid.
    The XW will power the Inverter AC Distribution panel from the grid if present and if the grid fails until the batteries get drained to a certain point?
    The XW can be configured to operate in this manner.
    Can you connect a generator to the generator AC inputs with Grid power present?
    Yes.
    Which AC source does the inverter select first Grid or Generator?
    This is determined by the user via the “AC Priority” setting (AC1 or AC2) in the “AC Settings” menu.
    Can the XW be used with nothing connected to the Inverter AC distribution panel out if desired and it will just act like a normal GT inverter and import as much as required to satisfy the loads or Export if Solar and Wind is greater than consumption?
    Yes.
    Could you connect another GT inverter between the utility and XW on the AC in lines?
    I haven’t seen this yet, but, technically, I can’t imagine why not. However, it's most unlikely that you could connect both the to same main power panel, unless it's rather large and has a high current rating, and I believe that both the XW and the GT would stop selling to the grid should it fail.
    Does the XW charge the batteries as long as there is AC present on the AC in? (or does the XW rely on Solar, Wind, Hydro to charge the batteries?)
    The XW contains a built-in AC-to-DC battery charger. In general, it can be user-configured to charge or not charge (i.e., “Charger Block”) according to system status and/or user preferences.
    Can the XW be connected/programmed in such a way as to use stored battery power during the night?
    Yes. The “Load Shaving” feature can be set to O Aac, and this will effectively cut grid use between the assigned start/stop times.

    HTH,
    Jim / crewzer

    Schneider Electric Renewable Energy Business (Xantrex)
    Senior Sales Application Engineer
  • mnittlermnittler Solar Expert Posts: 63 ✭✭✭
    Re: Xantrex XW GT Connection

    Can someone explain exactly what components are needed (Brands & Model #'s would be helpful) and where to put them in the circuit to protect the battery bank if back driving the XW from the protected AC distribution panel? (How to make an Island)

    That is if someone really wanted to do this during an emergency situation like after a Hurricane and the power is going to be off for a very long time and they already had the other GT systems just sitting there not able to produce power because there was no grid. Assuming the person understood what they were doing, understood the dangers involved and knew that this system would have to be completely isolated from the grid via a disconnect. They actually have a brain (know how to use it) and respect electricity. Not that anyone would actually do this but to just have the knowledge available.

    Assumptions:
    5 kw solar GT inverter tied to XW protected AC distribution panel producing 4 kw.
    XW connected batteries have an existing charge.
    Load on that xw protected AC distribution panel is 1 kw

    What components are required to protect the batteries and where to install them?
    Is there a good possibility that the requirements will be met so that the GT inverter will think there is a grid present (If not then none of this will work)?
    19.76kw Solar/GT Enphase IQ7+ MicroInverters
     5.40kw Solar/GT ABB/Aurora 300 MicroInverters (AC coupled to Schneider/Xantrex XW6048 output)
     6.00kw Solar/Hybrid Xantrex XW6048 Inverter w/2 strings Trojan L-16E-AC Batteries (48VDC)
    18kw Kohler Propane Generator

  • dsp3930dsp3930 Solar Expert Posts: 66 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Xantrex XW GT Connection

    Let me see if I have this right ...

    You would like to hook a Xantrex XW up with your main breaker "OFF".
    (operating your system "off the grid" completely)

    You would then like to know, with the Xantrex providing power to your sub-panel via battery or PV/Wind excess -- if you can have your existing Grid Tie solar inverters sync up with the Xantrex (as the source AC provider) and generate power in tandem to all of your circuits.

    I don't have the answer offhand, I'm just trying to nail down what you specifically are wanting to know.
  • mnittlermnittler Solar Expert Posts: 63 ✭✭✭
    Re: Xantrex XW GT Connection

    That is correct. Have XW provide sync for Solar GT inverter. Problem is how to hancle any excess power produced since there will be no grid to absorb it?
    19.76kw Solar/GT Enphase IQ7+ MicroInverters
     5.40kw Solar/GT ABB/Aurora 300 MicroInverters (AC coupled to Schneider/Xantrex XW6048 output)
     6.00kw Solar/Hybrid Xantrex XW6048 Inverter w/2 strings Trojan L-16E-AC Batteries (48VDC)
    18kw Kohler Propane Generator

  • crewzercrewzer Registered Users, Solar Expert Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Xantrex XW GT Connection
    mnittler wrote: »
    Can someone explain exactly what components are needed (Brands & Model #'s would be helpful) and where to put them in the circuit to protect the battery bank if back driving the XW from the protected AC distribution panel? (How to make an Island)

    That is if someone really wanted to do this during an emergency situation like after a Hurricane and the power is going to be off for a very long time and they already had the other GT systems just sitting there not able to produce power because there was no grid. Assuming the person understood what they were doing, understood the dangers involved and knew that this system would have to be completely isolated from the grid via a disconnect. They actually have a brain (know how to use it) and respect electricity. Not that anyone would actually do this but to just have the knowledge available.

    Assumptions:
    5 kw solar GT inverter tied to XW protected AC distribution panel producing 4 kw.
    XW connected batteries have an existing charge.
    Load on that xw protected AC distribution panel is 1 kw

    What components are required to protect the batteries and where to install them?
    Is there a good possibility that the requirements will be met so that the GT inverter will think there is a grid present (If not then none of this will work)?

    What you're trying to do is called "AC coupling". It is, shall we say, an "unsupported feature" in several inverter/chargers. Because the battery-less inverter's power output level is not regulated, the fundamental challenge is trying to manage any excess power. Another issue is that the battery charger typically operates in an unregulated mode, which might be bad for the battery bank.

    The only AC-C system I worked on used contactors to disconnect the B/L inverter's outputs from the system when the battery voltage got too high. This is a tricky and potentially dangerous application. I must decline to offer specifics on how to do it.

    Regards,
    Jim / crewzer
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,212 admin
    Re: Xantrex XW GT Connection

    Yea--the problem is pretty much if you have to ask how to do it--you may not have enough knowledge/experience to do it safely.

    The issue is not will it work or how to make it work--It is how to do it safely so that any of the normal events (say you are not there and they system kicks in--batteries are fully charged--how to stop charging) and abnormal events (first charger fails to regulate or a a contactor welded on) and then what.

    And you are working with your home/business... A "fault" and resultant injury/fire/etc. is a real possibility.

    If possible, you would be better off doing it the right way... Use Solar panels to 60 Amp MPPT charge controllers to the battery bank.

    The issue with current MPPT charge controllers is that your maximum array Vmp is around 100 VDC--whereas a GT inverter can operate with Vmp around 400 VDC--1/4 the current (smaller wire or easier to mount array farther away in better sun)...

    If you need a higher voltage Charge Controller--the Midnite Sun (comming out in the next 3-6 months?) may have a 250 VDC open circuit voltgage s the 150 VDC max of most MPPT controllers today... Helps a little.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Solar GuppySolar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,980 ✭✭✭
    Re: Xantrex XW GT Connection

    If you have all Xantrex equipment ( GT series inverters and XW inverter chargers ) this document is a how to do exactly what your looking for

    I was sent this in 2007 by Xantrex, while its not a currently UL approved mode of operation, it does work with the referenced safety shutdown.

    AC Coupling Application

    Even without the link to shutdown the GT's ( as is shown in the above document ) when the battery's are above a selected voltage , you can program the battery over voltage fault to a safer value, like just above bulk ( XW setting ). If the ac coupling starts over charging the battery's, the XW will fault on battery over voltage and shut down and immediately the GT's will go off line as well. A bit of a pain as evening shuts down but there isn't a safety issue either
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,212 admin
    Re: Xantrex XW GT Connection

    One other thing to watch for--you now have mutlitple energy sources on the protected side of the XW inverter... The XW GT/OG Inverter, a possible Genset, and a GT inverter.

    It would be very easy to exceed NEC ratings if this was a fully powered system (maximum solar arrays, possible genset operation, etc.)...

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • mnittlermnittler Solar Expert Posts: 63 ✭✭✭
    Re: Xantrex XW GT Connection

    Solar Guppy,
    Thank you very much for sharing the AC coupling info. Since I now have SMA SB and WB inverters then the inhibit signal from the XW should operate the same way and if not then I can use a relay to isolate the inverter inhibit signal from each unit. I was even thinking of adding a time delay between them so they both don't turn off at the same time. The SB will simply disconnect and the WB will automatically go to diverter load with the voltage clamp. And then there was light.
    19.76kw Solar/GT Enphase IQ7+ MicroInverters
     5.40kw Solar/GT ABB/Aurora 300 MicroInverters (AC coupled to Schneider/Xantrex XW6048 output)
     6.00kw Solar/Hybrid Xantrex XW6048 Inverter w/2 strings Trojan L-16E-AC Batteries (48VDC)
    18kw Kohler Propane Generator

  • mnittlermnittler Solar Expert Posts: 63 ✭✭✭
    Re: Xantrex XW GT Connection

    If the XW batteries have run down and need a kick to get the entire process started, a generator could be tied to the Gen AC inputs of the XW and that would charge the batteries and put power on the XW AC distribution panel. Right?

    Or a battery charger could be tied to a generator to charge the XW batteries.

    Would it be better to just to add a rectifier bridge across the generator AC outputs and go to a conventional charge controller connected to the batteries to isolate the generator completely? Is this better? A rectifier bridge is cheap and a charge controller is much cheaper than a 48vdc battery charger. Will this even work?
    19.76kw Solar/GT Enphase IQ7+ MicroInverters
     5.40kw Solar/GT ABB/Aurora 300 MicroInverters (AC coupled to Schneider/Xantrex XW6048 output)
     6.00kw Solar/Hybrid Xantrex XW6048 Inverter w/2 strings Trojan L-16E-AC Batteries (48VDC)
    18kw Kohler Propane Generator

  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,212 admin
    Re: Xantrex XW GT Connection
    mnittler wrote: »
    If the XW batteries have run down and need a kick to get the entire process started, a generator could be tied to the Gen AC inputs of the XW and that would charge the batteries and put power on the XW AC distribution panel. Right?
    Yes.
    Or a battery charger could be tied to a generator to charge the XW batteries.
    Yes. But what application do you have that you would like to do this?
    Would it be better to just to add a rectifier bridge across the generator AC outputs and go to a conventional charge controller connected to the batteries to isolate the generator completely? Is this better? A rectifier bridge is cheap and a charge controller is much cheaper than a 48vdc battery charger. Will this even work?
    In theory yes... In practice there are many reasons why not.
    • Voltage matching (120/240 VAC to 48 volt battery bank)
    • Current limiting (battery can accept lots of current and burnout genset)
    • Pure AC bridge circuits have very poor Power Factor--Zero current except at the peak of the voltage sine wave--then lots of current. Makes for very high current peaks, I^2 * R losses, and saturation of transformers/generator windings.
    • Not safe--you do not have DC electrical isolation between DC and AC circuits. Grounding, shock hazard, over current protection, all become very complex issues.
    Use the XW Hybrid Inverter's internal charger and the AC2 input from the genset. Use a real external charger / battery bank controller for other power sources to charge the bank.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • mnittlermnittler Solar Expert Posts: 63 ✭✭✭
    Re: Xantrex XW GT Connection

    The rectifier bridge idea came about when I was thinking about how to charge batteries from the GT inverter AC outputs and current would be limited by the solar cells feeding the GT inverter output. (Here I go thinking again.) I had even thought about putting one rectifier bridge on each side of the 240vac split phase (120vac to ground) to balance the draw of each leg.
    I had looked at the price of a 48vdc golf cart battery charger and figured there had to be a lower cost solution ($3 25amp rectifier bridge + charge controller). The GT inverter would not have worked anyway since there was no grid to sync to. If this was done to a generator, it would draw full current until the smoke was released. The XW inverter/charger is a much better solution. It was a bad idea. I guess the remaining marbles finally fell out.
    19.76kw Solar/GT Enphase IQ7+ MicroInverters
     5.40kw Solar/GT ABB/Aurora 300 MicroInverters (AC coupled to Schneider/Xantrex XW6048 output)
     6.00kw Solar/Hybrid Xantrex XW6048 Inverter w/2 strings Trojan L-16E-AC Batteries (48VDC)
    18kw Kohler Propane Generator

  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,212 admin
    Re: Xantrex XW GT Connection
    mnittler wrote: »
    The GT inverter would not have worked anyway since there was no grid to sync to. If this was done to a generator, it would draw full current until the smoke was released.

    "Let me be clear..." (quoting our President), The GT inverter can sync to a TSW inverter (XW Xantrex, some Outbacks, probably others)--it is the charge control and other issues that can be a problem.

    Generator wise, unless it is an Inverter/Generator (like the Honda euX000i series or some other brands like Yamaha), a standard genset cannot old 60 +/- 0.4 Hz so the GT would either never sync, or quickly shutdown from frequency drift by the genset.

    The XW Hybrid Inverter can sync with something like 60 +/- 5 Hz or so for off grid generator Charging and Pass Through power support for the protected / off grid loads (as I understand it).

    -Bill "not an expert" B.
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Solar GuppySolar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,980 ✭✭✭
    Re: Xantrex XW GT Connection

    The XW-6048's will cost you half the SMA and have more features ... Since you already have one, seems like the logical choice
  • crewzercrewzer Registered Users, Solar Expert Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Xantrex XW GT Connection

    I discussed the AC coupling app described in this linked post with my colleagues in Burnaby and the Seattle area. There were concerns about this application, and it's never been supported.

    Caveat emptor!

    New firmware has been developed to facilitate AC coupling with the XW. An app note is just getting started, and I've offered to help with the project.

    We'll advise when it's ready.

    HTH,
    Jim / crewzer
  • mnittlermnittler Solar Expert Posts: 63 ✭✭✭
    Re: Xantrex XW GT Connection

    Believe it or not. I received the same Xantrex Application note discussing this topic from Xantrex customer support yesterday. The only difference I can see is that it is dated 3/16/2007 instead of 4/19/2007.
    19.76kw Solar/GT Enphase IQ7+ MicroInverters
     5.40kw Solar/GT ABB/Aurora 300 MicroInverters (AC coupled to Schneider/Xantrex XW6048 output)
     6.00kw Solar/Hybrid Xantrex XW6048 Inverter w/2 strings Trojan L-16E-AC Batteries (48VDC)
    18kw Kohler Propane Generator

  • mnittlermnittler Solar Expert Posts: 63 ✭✭✭
    Re: Xantrex XW GT Connection

    Reference SMA Sunny Island Vs. Xantrex XW6048.
    That is the same conclusion I came to. If the Xantrex does the AC coupling then it is half the cost of the SMA Sunny Island and already 240vac split phase. The SMA Sunny Island is 120vac so you will need 2 each for 240vac split phase which raises the ante to over $10,000. The SMA Sunny Island already does the Island, battery charging, and control of GT inverters for you and everything is taking of in a neat package. They are really proud of the Sunny Island. The Sunny Island shuts down the GT inverters by momentarily increasing the frequency enough to shut them down if the GT power is not required. I guess as they come back on and the power is not needed then it goes thru the entire process again (overcharging of batteries taken care of). SMA must lower the frequency a bit to correct clocks after a forced over frueqency takes place over time? Don't get me wrong, I really like SMA and own 2 of their GT inverters.
    19.76kw Solar/GT Enphase IQ7+ MicroInverters
     5.40kw Solar/GT ABB/Aurora 300 MicroInverters (AC coupled to Schneider/Xantrex XW6048 output)
     6.00kw Solar/Hybrid Xantrex XW6048 Inverter w/2 strings Trojan L-16E-AC Batteries (48VDC)
    18kw Kohler Propane Generator

  • GreenerPowerGreenerPower Solar Expert Posts: 264 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Xantrex XW GT Connection

    I would agree with SG. "Trade-in/swap-out" your grid-tie battery-less system for a grid-tie battery-based system is much cleaner/safer instead of trying to "kludge" things together via AC-coupling.
    GP
  • newenergynewenergy Solar Expert Posts: 291 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Xantrex XW GT Connection

    There are some people/companies with 26 years experience in PV for sure, but most people with that much SOLAR experience are probably 5 or 6 years PV at most and the rest hot water and mostly pools. That's just where the market was up until recently.

    And now the market is probably 95% grid tie only.

    I've been doing PV for about 3 years and am just now doing my first couple battery back-ups and learning a lot thanks to this forum.
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,212 admin
    Re: Xantrex XW GT Connection

    I have moved CaptTurbo's questions and Solar Guppy's replies back to his own thread:

    Help!

    I think I got all the correct pieces moved... Please let me know if I moved too much or not enough.

    -Bill "moderator" B.
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • John XW NYJohn XW NY Solar Expert Posts: 50 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Xantrex XW GT Connection

    Ok Guys ,
    Duplicate post of one in new thread... Suggest everyone read and reply here:

    http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?p=59831#post59831

    -Bill Moderator B.
  • RCinFLARCinFLA Solar Expert Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Xantrex XW GT Connection

    I think the delima in AC coupling a GT inverter to XW output is XW would be subjected to any grid presences testing by the GT inverter. There are several techniques for the grid presences tests (to comply with UL1741) but how any given GT inverter might accomplish this varies.

    It is hard to predict how XW would react to any given GT inverter grid presences testing. The XW might do okay as, in most cases, I think it would just look like a variable power factor to XW. Squirely part is variable load power factor does not normally push power backwards into XW over time average.

    If a grid is present, XW must do its own grid presences testing in order to allow selling, assumingly whether the selling comes from its own inverter (from battery line) or a GT inverter pushing power backwards through XW unit. Two UL1741 chefs in the kitchen, doing independent grid presences testing.

    As to shedding the GT inverter during grid disconnected operation to avoid overcharging, it is fairly easy for the XW to move its frequency outside of the -0.7 Hz to +0.5 Hz of the grid frequency spec. The AC coupled grid tie inverter should theoretically shut down when taken outside these limits. (definitive word is 'should')
  • System2System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    Re: Xantrex XW GT Connection

    Hi Jim

    I am a designer in Australia and I was about to put in a system linking the GT and XW via the method described in the AC Coupling pdf that is floating around.

    I have heard that with the latest firm ware it is possible to achieve the same thing with a frequency shift in the XW which then drops out the GT.

    Even though we are the Xantrex distributor for Australia it is hard to get info out of Xantrex at the moment.

    Can you Help??

    Ray
    crewzer wrote: »

    Hi Jim

    I am a designer in Australia and I was about to put in a system linking the GT and XW via the method described in the AC Coupling pdf that is floating around.

    I have heard that with the latest firm ware it is possible to achieve the same thing with a frequency shift in the XW which then drops out the GT.

    Even though we are the Xantrex distributor for Australia it is hard to get info out of Xantrex at the moment.

    Can you Help??

    Ray
    What you're trying to do is called "AC coupling". It is, shall we say, an "unsupported feature" in several inverter/chargers. Because the battery-less inverter's power output level is not regulated, the fundamental challenge is trying to manage any excess power. Another issue is that the battery charger typically operates in an unregulated mode, which might be bad for the battery bank.

    The only AC-C system I worked on used contactors to disconnect the B/L inverter's outputs from the system when the battery voltage got too high. This is a tricky and potentially dangerous application. I must decline to offer specifics on how to do it.

    Regards,
    Jim / crewzer
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,212 admin
    Re: Xantrex XW GT Connection

    As far as I know, Jim is still working hard at Xantrex/Schneider and has not had time to visit this forum at all recently.

    I think your best bet is to contact him via email or contact Schneider customer support directly.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • solarixsolarix Solar Expert Posts: 713 ✭✭
    Re: Xantrex XW GT Connection

    I would like to add to this discussion of XW equipment, that you do need to get the control panel specifically for the XW (even though it lists as "optional") in order to set it up.
    The Xantrex control panel for GT inverters will not work. And unlike the rest of Xantrex equipment that can be operated via the built in panel, the XW basically only has an on/off button built in. It comes from the factory set for off-grid operation and you need the control panel to enable the sell mode etc.
    I guess they figure you may be installing multiple inverters or at least added charge controllers, so why duplicate the control panel several times.
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,076 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Xantrex XW GT Connection

    The complexity of AC coupling is half of the reason that Xantrex is coming out with the MPPT-80 high voltage controller. One just buy's it with an XW system and sells/disposes the GT unit all with never having to rewire the system for low voltage.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • newenergynewenergy Solar Expert Posts: 291 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Xantrex XW GT Connection

    This question isn't really relevant here, but since you're all talking about Xantrex XW:

    In the normal hybrid set up (no AC coupling or anything weird), if the batteries totally fail, but the grid is on, what happens?

    Inverter shuts off and distributed loads panel is dead? No selling? No power from the PV at all?
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,212 admin
    Re: Xantrex XW GT Connection

    As far as I know (really a guess on my part)--The transfer switch in the inverter should pass grid power to the protected sub-panel.

    However, people can wire in a manual by-pass setup where they can disconnect the XW inverter completely from the grid + sub-panel and run the grid power directly to the panel (basically, and external transfer-switch)--Allows service of the XW while the sub-panel remains powered.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • newenergynewenergy Solar Expert Posts: 291 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Xantrex XW GT Connection
    BB. wrote: »
    As far as I know (really a guess on my part)--The transfer switch in the inverter should pass grid power to the protected sub-panel.

    Seems like it should in theory, but in the way I have it set up anyway, the inverter will shut off if the batteries are out of whack or disconnected.

    I don't have the Xantrex Distribution Power Center or w/e it's called, but there seems to be a manual bypass in it (I also have a manual bypass separate from the inverter).
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