anything new for 2010

ws9876ws9876 Solar Expert Posts: 395 ✭✭✭
Its been a year... is there a micro turbine worth looking at yet...??
300-500watts
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Comments

  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: anything new for 2010

    you can look at the tlg-500 naws started carrying. maybe windsun can give some feedback on how well it's doing.
    http://store.solar-electric.com/tl500wawige.html
  • russruss Solar Expert Posts: 593 ✭✭
    Re: anything new for 2010

    A few notes on the tlg:

    Rated Output 500 watts at 35 mph wind speeds "real world"

    Start-up speed minimal charge begins 6.5 mph (<3 m/s) . 1 full amp at 8 mph. wind speed "real world" - you will be at 1 amp a lot more of the time than higher if your location is typical.

    The 35 mph wind is storm conditions most places - if you look at the chart tlg links to for average wind speeds you will see very few places in the US that even come close to that.

    Having said the above it looks like a solid, well built unit and probably does what it says - that is unusual with wind turbines!
  • GreenPowerManiacGreenPowerManiac Solar Expert Posts: 453 ✭✭✭
    Re: anything new for 2010

    Rather than ask for new "Untested" products, the only ones that may work are in the form of Permanent Magnet Alternators (PMAs), TLG's looks like it could be one of the same. Mine have run perfect (motors) for about 7 months and still going. It's -1 outside and they're still spinning/producing something. I rate these 0-600 watt depending on the wind. Cut in speed is 1 mph at 1-2 volts, charging speed is around 12-15mph winds (13-15v). Today's marketing skills are really advanced and they always tell you the best output, not the reality average based on area conditions.

    I'll do a search for "whatever brand" and "Scam" on the end to see what it produces. TLG's looks "Scam" free or little results, which is good. Or search this forums scam section for what to avoid.
    Nature's Design & Green Energy on FaceBook : Stop by and "Like" us anytime.. Many up-to-date articles about Renewables every day.
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  • ws9876ws9876 Solar Expert Posts: 395 ✭✭✭
    Re: anything new for 2010

    I guess not ...................
  • GreenPowerManiacGreenPowerManiac Solar Expert Posts: 453 ✭✭✭
    Re: anything new for 2010

    At the rate things are popping up as scams or unavailable time to thoroughly test them, it's hard to trust anything new or "Updated" in this field.

    In reality, I'll get anywhere from .01-.15 cents per hour savings per day out of 3 wind turbines providing it's windy enough. Most people frown on this since solar is much more efficient.
    Nature's Design & Green Energy on FaceBook : Stop by and "Like" us anytime.. Many up-to-date articles about Renewables every day.
    WWW.GreenAnything.Net    Ad free website.
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  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 29,991 admin
    Re: anything new for 2010

    I would keep an eye on the Midnite Solar Classic MPPT charge controller for wind turbines... Hopefully will be available in the next few months and can make a dramatic improvement in the output of small turbines (assuming tall tower, windy site, reliable design, etc.).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • vcallawayvcallaway Solar Expert Posts: 157 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: anything new for 2010

    I keep coming back to small wind for my home. My use is backup power right now. I think wind is a way to extend my battery run time.

    Today would be typical for the power to go out. Average wind speed is 3mph with gusts to 17mph. That is what the weather station about a mile away reports.

    Something that could crank out about 300 watts in those conditions would be perfect. We limit our power usage during outages. That would more than cover my needs.

    I know solar would be better. Power outages never seem to happen on prime solar days :D
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 8,573 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: anything new for 2010

    Any models (TLG or otherwise) with 60V output (for 48V battery charging) ?
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • ws9876ws9876 Solar Expert Posts: 395 ✭✭✭
    Re: anything new for 2010

    a nice Air X size thing that makes a real 300 watts, has a built in controller
    and lets you pick the blades, .....

    Hey anyone unemployed out there... if you can make me a handmade unit
    like this, lets say 300-400 watts realistic, has carbon blades and doesnt look like a POS plywood crap box... I'd pay a dollar a watt.... and make my own tower..
  • icarusicarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,400 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: anything new for 2010

    All you small wind dreamers, consider this, 3 with gusts to 17 is pretty bad for a number of reasons. First at 3 mph you have no power to speak of, but at 17 you are reaching the limits.

    Second gusty winds make for short lived wind gennies, since gust loading both from speed and change of direction makes a recipe for mechanical failure.
  • john pjohn p Solar Expert Posts: 814 ✭✭✭
    Re: anything new for 2010

    VCALLAWAY I agree with Icarus you have the worst wind situation possible. that is what I had where I had my AIR X it could never generate much electricity as stopped 30 secs go fast 30 secs then stop 5 mins then go fast 30 secs.. hopeless at charging a battery.
  • stephendvstephendv Solar Expert Posts: 1,571 ✭✭
    Re: anything new for 2010

    Two popular UK built turbines:
    http://www.futurenergy.co.uk/
    http://www.renewablecomponents.com/

    I've no experience with them, but users on UK forums have reported being happy with the build quality. Of course charging a 48V battery is going to need good RPM... until Midnite release the now almost mythical Classic.
  • russruss Solar Expert Posts: 593 ✭✭
    Re: anything new for 2010

    Future energy turbine at 5 m/s (10 mph) wind speed they list as 3240 watts per day - if you are honest and use a capacity factor of a very-very generous 0.35 that would come to 1134 watts per day or less than 1200 kWh per year.

    The Renewable Components is about the same.

    They were not in the Warwick wind trials - so nothing there but why should they be any better?
  • stephendvstephendv Solar Expert Posts: 1,571 ✭✭
    Re: anything new for 2010

    I mentioned them because they might be of interesting to the non-UK folk on this forum. What I understood from the results of the Warwick trials was that small wind in an urban environment is flawed as a concept and doesn't necessarily reflect on the manufacturers of the turbines. From their site:

    Both theory and practice are clear that the most significant factor affecting wind turbine performance is the location of the machine, and this trial bears this out. The purpose of the trial is to provide some initial guidance on the relative performances of turbines in different kinds of urban location

    I thought the UK turbines would be of interest here because of their price and reported build quality since one of the running themes in small wind is regularly failing machines because of design/build flaws. As I said above, evidence of build quality of the listed machines is anecdotal only.
  • russruss Solar Expert Posts: 593 ✭✭
    Re: anything new for 2010

    Hi Stephen - look at the 'up' time for all the units in the Warwick trial - was terrible along with the urban environment not being suitable.
  • ws9876ws9876 Solar Expert Posts: 395 ✭✭✭
    Re: anything new for 2010

    tell me what you think of this...

    http://www.chinookdistributing.com/wind-turbines
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 29,991 admin
    Re: anything new for 2010

    I took a quick look at the performance curves (which are based on kWhrs per month vs speed instead of Watts vs speed--strange in itself--appears to be giving "wiggle room" to anyone that calls back with performance questions--"it all averages out after a month" then "well your average wind speeds are too low", excuses etc...).

    Wind power goes with the cube (speed^3 power). And the performance curve is linear. Either the unit has very poor performance at higher wind speeds, or the curve is pure marketing numbers.

    On the other hand... The website says that this is manufactured in Montana...

    There was a "Montana" wind turbine in the Dutch wind tests (small wind power a scam? Survey says So) where a "Montana" brand actually performed rather well compared to 99% of the other small turbine systems out there (but so did Skystream--go figure :confused: ). Hmm--Wonder if this is the same Mfg?

    http://www.fortiswindenergy.com/products/wind-turbines/montana

    Never mind--the "Montana Turbine" in the test is probably out of Netherlands (difficult to be sure--no company address is listed, only dealer addresses). But you can compare the usual "bell" shape of the Montana power output vs the straight line of the Chinook.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,180 ✭✭✭✭
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • WisJimWisJim Solar Expert Posts: 59 ✭✭✭
    Re: anything new for 2010

    You need to remember that, in spite of company pics and blurbs, any windgenerator of any size or type needs to be high enough to get good wind. A problem with very small wind turbines is that the cost of the needed tower of 50' or more is easily more than the cost of the turbine, so they don't get installed high enough. The tower for a bigger machine is often the same or little more than the cost of the tower for the small machine. Just because it is only 3' or 4' in diameter doesn't mean that it can sit on a roof or short tower and still produce well.
  • ws9876ws9876 Solar Expert Posts: 395 ✭✭✭
    Re: anything new for 2010

    a 200 watt solar panel would do more for me and 99% of battery people than any
    stupid little pos wind turbine. Wind is for BIG machines... solar is the way to go
    unless your on an island or Antarctica.
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: anything new for 2010
    westbranch wrote: »

    interesting that in nearly every photo that they show something sinking or sunk, be it the sun in the majority of the pics to a boat. i wonder what freud would say about this?:confused::roll:
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: anything new for 2010
    niel wrote: »
    interesting that in nearly every photo that they show something sinking or sunk, be it the sun in the majority of the pics to a boat. i wonder what freud would say about this?:confused::roll:

    Sometimes a wind tower is just a wind tower. :p
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,180 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: anything new for 2010

    I think Freud also said " Or is it?" ;);)
    or Maybe that was Rorschach and his weird blotches??:p

    Eric
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 29,991 admin
    Re: anything new for 2010

    I don't know, it sort of looks like the Chinook breaks the Betz limit at the low end:
    • Chinook: 1 meter diameter, ~27kWhrs per month at 7.8 mph in ideal wind
    • 19.66 kWhr/month*sqmter * pi*(0.5m)^2 = 15.44 kWhr per month Betz limit
    • 11.66 kWhr/month*sqmter * pi*(0.5m)^2 = 9.16 kWhr per month "good turbine" estimate
    Even the Air X, a larger turbine from SWWP only calls out 13 kWhr per month and slightly higher average wind speed (1.17 meter):
    • Air X: 1.17 meter diameter, ~13kWhrs per month at 8 mph
    • 19.66 kWhr/month*sqmter * pi*(0.585m)^2 = 21.13 kWhr per month Betz limit
    • 11.66 kWhr/month*sqmter * pi*(0.585m)^2 = 12.54 kWhr per month "good turbine" estimate
    I have not researched the Betz limits--just pulled up a chart from a random website--So, I could very easily be wrong... But the Chinook just does not look possible (at least at the low end--you can calculate the high). And it overestimates the low end power production by almost a factor of 3x when compared to real numbers.

    The SWWP Air X turbine curve (at least the starting point) at least follows the "good turbine" limit...

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • russruss Solar Expert Posts: 593 ✭✭
    Re: anything new for 2010

    İf they don't give their method for determining output then you assume the worst. To do anything else is foolish.

    İt is up to the person or company putting out the numbers to justify their position - not up to the potential buyer.

    Right now it is safe to assume almost all are a load of BS as there is standard method and companies are famous for trying to make themselves look good even if they have to:
    1) lie a little bit
    2) not exactly tell the whole truth
    3) out and out dump a load on the public
    4) get a TV or movie star to dump the load on the public
  • russruss Solar Expert Posts: 593 ✭✭
    Re: anything new for 2010

    Yes - but is is a lousy supplier or manufacturer that you can have some trust in!
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 29,991 admin
    Re: anything new for 2010

    Steevee,

    Not to put too fine a point on it--I have showed my work and it appears that the Chinook is almost 2x the Betz limit and 3x the "very good turbine" output (assuming I have correct information) at 7.8 MPH--And somebody like you with a lot of experience says "...in my experience the chinook numbers look accurate."

    And--I did show my work. 1 meter rotor diameter:
    • A=pi*r^2= 3.1416 * (1m dia / 2)^2 = 0.79 sq.meters
    Not even the "Chinook which only as a swept area of about .85 square meters then their numbers at first seem very generous."
    • D=(A/pi)^0.5=(0.85sqmtr/3.1416)^2= 1.04 meters
    All it takes is a 4% error in diameter and you get another 8% in swept area...

    Details matter. I would not expect an engineer to go out and characterize--let alone the rest of the population--every possible parameter prior to purchase-. At some point, there has be at least a little bit of competence in the organization designing and manufacturing the product and with their approved dealer/installer list.

    I guess that is what the courts will be for... It is a shame because the only winners in the end will be the lawyers.

    At this time--it is buyer beware--that is the only thing one can say...

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 29,991 admin
    Re: anything new for 2010

    One thing I want to add--if the "good vendors" (mfg and installers) don't start calling out the "bad vendors" and do a better job of educating their customers (and protecting customers from themselves)--they are going to get tarred and feathered at the same time from the blowback.

    I really feel bad for the few wind installers that have posted here on the forum... They sound like they are watching after their customers' interests. I have learned a lot from their posts.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Truth SquadTruth Squad Solar Expert Posts: 126 ✭✭
    Re: anything new for 2010

    "It may be true that it is the responsibility of the manufacturer to justify what they are selling actually does perform, but it is up to us, the consumers to check them and keep them honest. There is not a standards board or committee in place for wind energy systems YET......If you are too lazy to study up and check their numbers or call 'em and ask 'em how they got their numbers than it's your own fault if you get ripped off. "

    Really? So, is it the fault of the customers who got sick from salmonella tainted peanut butter because they didn't call up the processing plant and talk to the USDA inspector there? Sorry, but letting manufacturers get away with nonsense and blaming the customer doesn't produce working wind turbines. On the contrary, what it does is give wind a bad name.

    There is a name for saying something is X and delivering Y. There is a name for saying something does something that it really doesn't. It's called fraud. Is that the kind of thing we want in small wind? This business of blaming customers is blaming the victims. If someone sells a product, it must---not should, not might---MUST do what it is advertised to do. Period. There is no excuse for anything else.
  • russruss Solar Expert Posts: 593 ✭✭
    Re: anything new for 2010

    The problem is that in any new area the customer expertise is less than what would be necessary for most to protect themselves.

    The people using this blog would protect themselves better than most but if that is the extent of the market wind isn't going far.

    The more people that get their fingers burnt of solar and wind the harder it will be to get customers. That is the danger of the strange installations that bypass inspections, rules and regulations - they will do more to turn people off than to get them excited about RE.

    İn my opinion, Any company that says the customer should be educated and beware is not going far - except to court!
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