Scam Alerts

System2

Re: Scam Alerts

"Everyone else, looks exactly like the Earth 4 Energy scam... [edit to add spaces to get past spam filter.-BB]

I fell for one of these. It was a series of videos (which contained very little useful information) and a series of "books" that probably add up to about 40 pages total, most of which seems to be photocopied from magazine articles or lifted from other scam sites. I did get one valuable piece of information, though. You cannot legally integrate home-built solar panels into the grid, so any homebuilt project is strictly limited to a battery charging system.

System2

Re: Scam Alerts

So for someone new to this game, like myself, just trying to learn what and how to set up a system, the scamers are pretty frightening. I need to be sure and avoid them. So is dealing with reputable comopanies the only way to steer clear of the scams?

BB.

Re: Scam Alerts

Getting yourself an education helps--asking questions (here and elsewhere), comparing various components/systems, researching vendors for reviews/problem reports, etc. (reviews can be real or a combination of unhappy customers and vendors seeding reviews)...

Going with known good vendors helps--but there are real deals out there too... But the possibility of scam certainly goes up with the "it seems too good to be true" prices. However, there are some pretty expensively priced scams out there too.

And, even if you finally get all the right components at the right price--you can still end up with issues... Not understanding the load vs available power from a solar system is one (most people underestimate their loads and over estimate the solar PV systems output power).

Another is improper mounting/operation... Improper wiring blowing components, under/over charging/over discharging/boiling dry/etc. the batteries, portable panels blown over and shattered, etc. can all happen too.

-Bill

System2

Re: Scam Alerts

Anyone have knowledge or experience for paint that has insulating values? thanks jc

Cariboocoot

Re: Scam Alerts

blueskywind wrote: »

Anyone have knowledge or experience for paint that has insulating values? thanks jc

Yep. We've done that.

http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?t=3731&highlight=insulating+paint

Turns up in a few other threads too.

BB.

Re: Scam Alerts

So far, except for some seriously technical uses (like space shuttle)--Painting things light colors will keep the surface from getting as hot under the sun and better reflect UV (colors towards red tend to degrade faster because of UV absorption).

I don't think there is any paint out there that you can slap on the side of a home and save any money on your heating bills.

From this thread:

Cooling Solar Panels for Improved Power Output (clipped from thread)

BB. wrote: »

Niel is correct... Generally what radiates heat well also absorbs heat well.

I remember years ago that NASA spent a bunch of time and money trying to find the right "paint" that would reflect heat from the sun well and radiate heat to space well... If I recall correctly, the best material was not much better than any of the other options.

In the case of solar panels, I am not sure that it would make any difference at all... You have a slight insulation effect (paint is not a good conductor of heat, plus the back of the panels are plastic--also not a good heat conductor). And, you may end up with warranty problems--paints have solvents and additives which could attack the membrane materials on the back of the panels.

If you want to keep your panels cool--ensure there is at least 5-6 inches of airspace behind/under the panels and a way for air to circulate.

Ah--found one NASA report from 1983 (PDF file)... Has a whole bunch of information about colors/materials and their absorption and emission of heat. Hmm, looking at the results--I would probably be more tempted to paint the back of the panels white than black... Very similar emission results, and much less absorption with white.

But of so much variability (materials, coating thicknesses, the way it is applied, mounting differences, etc.)--You would really have to do A/B testing of your specific panels and coatings.

Don't think it is worth doing it...

-Bill

SolarSailor

Re: Scam Alerts

don't think there is any paint out there that you can slap on the side of a home and save any money on your heating bills.

Take a look at this stuff.....SuperTherm

It's termed a 'coating' since it's a ceramic mixture.

http://spi.graggadv.com/products/supertherm/

R-Equivalent "RE" 19.2

Cost: $1.00/SqFt for 10mil dry thickness (16mil wet)

Used for variety of applications, including steel buildings and ships.
Becomes the right stuff for Shipping Containers, for shipping or housing.

BB.

Re: Scam Alerts

See post #30 above from "Russ"... He tried it on a job and found SuperTherm did not add any measurable insulation effect.

I find it difficult to believe the claims myself.

-Bill

SolarSailor

Re: Scam Alerts

BB. wrote: »

See post #30 above from "Russ"... He tried it on a job and found SuperTherm did not add any measurable insulation effect.

I find it difficult to believe the claims myself.

-Bill

To be sure, we do need to be conscience of what difference there may be between 'Supertherm like materials' and actual 'SuperTherm'.

Can Russ confirm actual 'SuperTherm' was used?

One claim we can empathize is there would be a difference between it and simple 'reflective' paint materials.

otoh, I've not actually used/tested SuperTherm, so would wish for anyone who has to speak up.

russ

Re: Scam Alerts

In the world of insulation and refractories there is no scientific manner in which the stuff can do as it claims. A thin layer (say 1mm) of anything does nothing.

I was told that before we tried it but the cost was minimal and we had a major shutdown coming up anyway - nothing to lose. We also gained nothing except experience.

Supertherm, Ultratherm, Savetherm or any other name the paints work on the same principal.

Windsun

Re: Scam Alerts

The latest in the "free energy" scams (that have of course been suppressed by the evil corporations and/or governments) www dot magniwork dot com

BB.

Re: Scam Alerts

We had a thread here about 1 year ago:

Magniwork

I still like my comment: Your money will power their home for a month...

-Bill

TypeDr

Various Power Savers (Redux)

Windsun wrote: »

Looks like we might have another one - this one looks like it might be an MLM type thing. Their claims are a "bit" exaggerated, to say the least.

http://www.power-save1200.com/index.html

Hi Everyone,

Please bear with me as I am a total newbie here. I should have figured that there would already be discussion and consensus regarding the Power-Save 1200, the KVAR PU-1200, and others, all in the $350-$399 price range.

There's also one brand, the Electric Saver 1200, which says it does the identical job as the first 2, but for $97.75.

My questions are:

1. Would whatever savings (if any?) on the electric bill be worth 1/4 the price? Or are the whole lot of these just hollow promises?

2. KVAR posts a Fact Sheet from the Program of the U.S. Department of Energy, which is attached at the end of this post. Is this really from the DoE?
.................................

In case you'd like to read samplings from the 3 websites, here's another pdf of my own notes as I came across these sites.

Thanks very much for your consideration!

BB.

Re: Various Power Savers (Redux)

TypeDr wrote: »

Please bear with me as I am a total newbie here. I should have figured that there would already be discussion and consensus regarding the Power-Save 1200, the KVAR PU-1200, and others, all in the $350-$399 price range.

For the unit its self (motor run capacitor inside a metal box with wires and a pilot light--Probably ~10x -20x its retail worth.

Now--I am not sure, but that cost may include a person coming out to your home or business and sizing the unit to your needs... More on your "needs" later.

There's also one brand, the Electric Saver 1200, which says it does the identical job as the first 2, but for $97.75.

Only 3x-6x over priced...

1. Would whatever savings (if any?) on the electric bill be worth 1/4 the price? Or are the whole lot of these just hollow promises?

As with any good sales job--there is a bit of truth that is, usually, spun way out of proportion to any real return on investment.

Short answer, in the US, probably no utility charges for "poor power factor" for any home, and probably most small businesses...

If you owned an oil refinery with megawatts with of electric motors--you bet your bottom dollar that utilities charge utilities based on VA and kVA/kVAR (all basically the same thing) and if you could cut ~45% of your industrial power bill, you would install banks of capacitors to reduce VA/kVA usage.

So the simple answer is you will save zero to pennies or a dollar or so per month on a typical home power bill.

2. KVAR posts a Fact Sheet from the Program of the U.S. Department of Energy, which is attached at the end of this post. Is this really from the DoE?

Possibly--The claims are true--as far they go... If you have big motors (A/C, industrial pumps, agricultural pumps, etc.), and your motors are not already power factor corrected (more small appliances are coming with power factor correction), and you are a (typically) large business that is charged for poor power factor--You will hire an electrical contractor to measure and calculate how much capacitor to place you each of your loads--and most likely these PF correction capacitors will be switched to turn on and off with the load.

Note that "bad power factor" from a running motor can actually become "bad power factor" from a capacitor that is permanently "on".

So, if you have an A/C system that runs during the summer--and put a big capacitor on there but don't switch the "Power Saver" unit--When the motor is running, you are near PF 0.95 --- But now during the winter you still have the capacitor connected so instead of a "-"0.65 power factor, you may have a "+"0.65 power factor--the utility will still charge "extra" if you follow their rules to run the capacitor load.:roll:

Plus you can have bad power factor because you have lots of computers, florescent light bulbs, etc. -- And the capacitor will not help at all--because these are "non-linear" current loads:



A capacitor will do nothing to change the power factor of this type of load (Note: 120 VAC voltage is yellow line. The Blue Line is current from the load...)

Anyway, we can go down the details if you have more questions. AC power and all of these issues are actually a very complex set of mathmatics.

Take a look at the discussion about power factor, power supplies, and generators. It does matter--but you have to understand the underlying issues and how they affect your particular setup.

-Bill

russ

Re: Scam Alerts

Two points -

1) The Energy Star site has a post from the US Gov stating that these things (PF correction devices for residential use) do not do what they claim - that they are frauds.

2) If you really want to spend a few hundred bucks on something like this please just send it to me and I can send you a box with wires going in and out, a couple of LEDs (say red and green) painted any color you choose. If required I could add a buzzer and a phony LAN connection (at additional charge).

At least you would make me happy and it would have the same effect on your residential power bill. This is essentially the same thing power save 1200 is doing.

Industrially, as Bill says, they are very important. In the last plants I ran we had our own power plants (over 550 mW when I left - now triple that) - in my section we consumed well over 100 mW and we went into capacitors for PF correction big time. A very different world - nothing to be compared at all.

Russ

TypeDr

Re: Scam Alerts

Too funny, Russ!

Thanks for clarifying the issues, and giving me a chuckle re the wired box.

This is an amazing BB-site full of generous and KNOWLEDGEABLE real-world experts. I am so glad to have wandered into Wind-Sun Forums.

Best, TypeDr

russ

Re: Scam Alerts

Three sources to back up the comments I made.

1) The following is from http://energystar.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/energystar.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=4941&p_created=1204908170

ENERGY STAR does not qualify any Power Factor Correction Devices. Please send us an email at logomisuse@energystar.gov if you see one that claims to be ENERGY STAR certified.

2) A supporting document for the above from NIST (you would have to do a web search - I don't have the URL.

NIST Technical Note 1654
Regarding Electric Energy Savings,
Power Factors, and Carbon
Footprints: A Primer

3) NIST Team Demystifies Utility of Power Factor Correction Devices http://www.nist.gov/pml/quantum/power_121509.cfm

Russ

System2

Re: Scam Alerts

Kellan wrote: »

You cannot legally integrate home-built solar panels into the grid, so any homebuilt project is strictly limited to a battery charging system.

My utility company told me that I could build my own panels . The only thing I could not build is the grid tie inverter as it has to be UL approved.

TypeDr

Re: Scam Alerts

Thank you. Russ.
Best, TypeDr

BB.

Re: Scam Alerts

Interesting.

Where is your planned installation?

It may be that the utility does not care (if you have a listed GT Inverter)... Usually the local building department/fire insurance company cares about using listed components for Home/Business electrical wiring including the solar array.

I know some folks live where nobody really cares or does electrical inspections--Or, in many (most?) cases, the building inspector may not even climb on the roof to check if Listed components are used.

-Bill

System2

Re: Scam Alerts

I am in SE Missouri. I am installing 10 KW of panels they will be pole mounted. There is no building inspector needed as I'm in the county not city , tho the electric company has to inspect it to make sure it all works correctly before I can turn the system on. Plus they reinspect every year.

The utility company does care ....You have to have a UL listed GT inverter.

They did try and talk me out of putting it in ...their argument was it wont pay for itself before I will need to replace parts....ha ha poor attempt to talk me out since they raised rates 4 times in the last year.

niel

Re: Scam Alerts

as i've said many times it all depends on who does the inspections as it is up to them. the nec is not the law. one problem area, however, may be insurance companies as they may insist it be by the nec and like your inspector, they can mandate what they want.

System2

Re: Scam Alerts

niel wrote: »

as i've said many times it all depends on who does the inspections as it is up to them. the nec is not the law. one problem area, however, may be insurance companies as they may insist it be by the nec and like your inspector, they can mandate what they want.

my insurance company said as long as the electric company passes it it fine.

niel

Re: Scam Alerts

get that in writing or it means nothing.

System2

Re: Scam Alerts

it is in writing on their letterhead and signed

russ

Re: Scam Alerts

Your insurance agent or your insurance company - big difference.

XRinger

Re: Scam Alerts

Over the years, I've heard that most insurance companies have so much
fine print in their policies, they really don't have to pay out for anything.

But, they do make pay-outs, because they don't want the bad PR and
state regulators on their case.

I once knew a man who had his furniture store burn down.
He wasn't covered because his son had set up a drill press and grinder in an unused office.
They weren't the cause of the fire, but they found the motors etc in the rubble and didn't want to pay..
It was a very large store/warehouse.

The man lost everthing. Ended up killing himself.

mike95490

Re: Scam Alerts

Bummer . Reminds me of insurance joke #28, How do you cause a flood?

RobertMfromLI

Re: Scam Alerts

crewzer wrote: »

Here's a new one I cam across today: http://www.heatsurge.com/overview.cfm

It's a 1,500 W heater ("...an amazing 5,119 BTU's") starting at $249!

:grr
Jim / crewzer

One of my servers does better... at 624W max, generates 2,662 BTU.

XRinger

Re: Scam Alerts

RobertMfromLI wrote: »

One of my servers does better... at 624W max, generates 2,662 BTU.

It must be a heat pump, because 624 watts is 2129.176 BTUh,
2,662 BTUh is equal to 780.1552 watts.