In the News: Proposed Bans on Sale of Incandescent Bulbs

crewzercrewzer Registered Users, Solar Expert Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭✭

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  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 31,085 admin
    Re: In the News: Proposed Bans on Sale of Incandescent Bulbs

    In another article:

    http://www.smh.com.au/news/environment/light-bulbs-ban-to-slash-emissions/2007/02/19/1171733685061.html
    THE inefficient standard light bulb could be phased out within three years to save up to 800,000 tonnes of greenhouse gas emissions.The federal Environment Minister, Malcolm Turnbull, is expected today to announce a commitment to phase out incandescent light bulbs by 2009-10, a world first by a national government.

    It hopes to convince state and territory governments to introduce energy performance standards that would lead to the replacement of standard light bulbs with more efficient but more expensive alternatives such as compact fluorescent lights. It will also negotiate with manufacturers to phase out the bulbs.
    ...
    In Australia lighting represents about 12 per cent of greenhouse gas emissions from households, about 25 per cent of commercial sector emissions, and a quarter of the emissions associated with public and street lighting.

    The Federal Government estimates replacing the old bulbs with compact fluorescents in homes could cut greenhouse gas emissions by as much as 800,000 tonnes a year in 2008-12. Australia's emissions in 2004 totalled 564.7 million tonnes.

    I find it interesting that the government's "public and street lighting" accounts for 2x the emissions of residential lighting (even with the current inefficient bulbs)...

    A law to affect, at best, a (0.8MT/564.7MT=) 0.14% of the "CO2 Pollution"... :roll:

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: In the News: Proposed Bans on Sale of Incandescent Bulbs

    bill,
    that's interesting that somebody wants to tell me what it is i can use. though inefficient, incandescents do have some applications. the point about street lights is a very good one. that's the area they need to work on, but not force.
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 31,085 admin
    Re: In the News: Proposed Bans on Sale of Incandescent Bulbs

    I don't think it was posted here--but a few months ago, California started on the "

    http://enews.earthlink.net/article/gen?guid=20070131/45c02250_3ca6_1552620070131-2054994290

    From our Sate Congress comes "How Many Legislators Does it Take to Change a Light Bulb Act"--and don't blame me for the joke in the bill tittle--this comes from the bill's author (his official government web site):

    http://democrats.assembly.ca.gov/members/a40/
    SACRAMENTO –– In yet another instance of California being a trend-setter for the rest of the nation, Assemblymember Lloyd Levine (D-Van Nuys), the Chair of the Assembly’s Utilities and Commerce Committee, today announced that he is introducing legislation - the How Many Legislators Does it Take to Change a Light Bulb Act - to ban the sale of incandescent light bulbs in California by the year 2012.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: In the News: Proposed Bans on Sale of Incandescent Bulbs

    that kind of gives new meaning to the cartoon character who had an idea. he now sports a cfl above his head. it states in the article that the utilities give away bulbs. it wasn't specified, but which bulbs do they give away as they don't do anything for the public here except send a bill with rate increases pending?
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 31,085 admin
    Re: In the News: Proposed Bans on Sale of Incandescent Bulbs

    Yes, I have received a few CPFL bulbs from the local Chinese Market during checkout... And Costco, has cases and cases of CPFL's stamped with saying something along the lines that PG&E (Northern California's gas and electric supplier) has reduced the prices of these bulbs. And, the last 9 watts twisties I bought were something like $3.00 per six pack.

    The bulbs that come with "pre"-bates are ~9, 17, and 23 watt twist and ~17 watt indoor and indoor/outdoor floods (I think they are CEIT and Phillips brands mostly with electronic ballasts). Newest one is even a 9 watt twisty with white glass globe.

    We have some of the highest charges for electric power in the country here (~$0.115 per kWhrs to $0.37 per kWhrs depending on you tiered usage--typically up to 300 kWhrs a month is the cheap rate, over 900 kWhrs per month is the most expensive rate).

    Even though I received about $8,000 in a "cash rebate" for installing solar (plus another couple thousand for Federal tax credits)--it still ticks me off that this was taken from consumers (and tax payers) and given to me. And that we have an inverted cost structure for electricity that is left over from the Carter Administration.

    I has gotten to the point now where I really don't even know what the true cost of electricity is now... Is it $0.115 or $0.37 per kWhour...

    It is kind of interesting to see how the money is divided between the various costs (energy, distribution, "Public Purpose Programs", etc.)... The E1 rate is the straight residential rate:

    http://www.pge.com/tariffs/pdf/E-1.pdf

    E7 is the rate I pay (great for solar and now sort of closed to new customers) and E6 is the new TOU rate plan that Solar customers are being directed towards (more complex and not near as nice).

    http://www.pge.com/tariffs/pdf/E-7.pdf
    http://www.pge.com/tariffs/pdf/E-6.pdf

    And here is a neat chart of how much power is used (and how much generation capacity is available) in California at any particular time (today only--represents about 75% of the total CA Grid):

    http://www.caiso.com/outlook/SystemStatus.html

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • crewzercrewzer Registered Users, Solar Expert Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: In the News: Proposed Bans on Sale of Incandescent Bulbs

    But, something is CA is working. Data from 2003 shows that CA had the lowest per capita electricity use in the U.S. that year:

    http://www.energy.ca.gov/electricity/us_percapita_electricity_2003.html

    WY, which is not very densely populated and has low electricity rates (< 6 cents per kWh), had the highest per capita use.

    CA was also among the lowest per capita use from all energy sources:

    http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/states/sep_sum/plain_html/rank_use_per_cap.html

    Personally, I won't mind it all when sales of incandescents are banned. I suspect that like non-LF toilets, they'll still be available, especially for medical use. And, like we did when leaded gas was taken off the market, we'll get on with life.

    Regards,
    Jim / crewzer
  • System2System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    Re: In the News: Proposed Bans on Sale of Incandescent Bulbs

    Posted by ScuttleMonkey on Monday February 26, @03:41PM
    from the never-underestimate-ingenuity dept.
    Power Science
    finfife writes to tell us that GE has announced an advancement in incandescent technology that promises to increase the efficiency of lightbulbs to put them on par with compact fluorescent lamps (CFL). "The new high efficiency incandescent (HEI(TM)) lamp, which incorporates innovative new materials being developed in partnership by GE's Lighting division, headquartered in Cleveland, Ohio, and GE's Global Research Center, headquartered in Niskayuna, NY, would replace traditional 40- to 100-Watt household incandescent light bulbs, the most popular lamp type used by consumers today. The new technology could be expanded to all other incandescent types as well. The target for these bulbs at initial production is to be nearly twice as efficient, at 30 lumens-per-Watt, as current incandescent bulbs. Ultimately the high efficiency lamp (HEI) technology is expected to be about four times as efficient as current incandescent bulbs and comparable to CFL bulbs. Adoption of new technology could lead to greenhouse gas emission reductions of up to 40 million tons of CO2 in the U.S. and up to 50 million tons in the EU if the entire installed base of traditional incandescent bulbs was replaced with HEI lamps."The California legislature may want to revisit the wording of their proposed ban on incandescents (AB 722). How about mandating a level of efficiency rather than assuming that innovation can't happen?"
  • crewzercrewzer Registered Users, Solar Expert Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: In the News: Proposed Bans on Sale of Incandescent Bulbs
    The California legislature may want to revisit the wording of their proposed ban on incandescents (AB 722). How about mandating a level of efficiency rather than assuming that innovation can't happen?"
    Interesting development, and a good point!

    Regards,
    Jim / crewzer
  • System2System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    Re: In the News: Proposed Bans on Sale of Incandescent Bulbs

    yea, especially if theyre made from less hazardous materials than CFL's.
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: In the News: Proposed Bans on Sale of Incandescent Bulbs

    very good points matt and you've got my interest. keep us posted on this if you can.
  • SolarJohnSolarJohn Solar Expert Posts: 202 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: In the News: Proposed Bans on Sale of Incandescent Bulbs

    If they outlaw incandescent bulbs, only outlaws will have incandescent bulbs.

    John
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: In the News: Proposed Bans on Sale of Incandescent Bulbs

    come to think of it, i wonder if that includes the infra red bulbs in use in fast food restaurants? :|
  • System2System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    Re: In the News: Proposed Bans on Sale of Incandescent Bulbs
    niel wrote:
    come to think of it, i wonder if that includes the infra red bulbs in use in fast food restaurants? :|

    Probably not, as they are for heat, not light and are fairly efficient at directing the heat to where it's needed.
    Wayne
  • machinemanmachineman Solar Expert Posts: 129 ✭✭✭
    Re: In the News: Proposed Bans on Sale of Incandescent Bulbs

    Fourescent twist bulbs won't work on existing dimmer circuits or outdoor lightsense fixtures.   Is the Gov. going to expect every houshold to rewire at the owners expense?

    I have been running flourescent bulbs in a rooms for about 5 years. Yes they last longer but over time they loose strength(lumens) and take longer to warm up.  So they need to be replaced before they burn out.

    Off Grid Cabin, 24V 440ah 6V GC battery bank, Xantrex MPPT60-150 CC, Magnum MS4024 inverter-charger, >1200w Solar bank

  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 31,085 admin
    Re: In the News: Proposed Bans on Sale of Incandescent Bulbs

    No, the Gov. is not going to expect everyone to rewire at the owner's expense--

    First: Require landlords to upgrade "commercial buildings" at their expense (aka: renters will pay more)

    Second: As utility taxes drop (from power saved), new wiring will "increase" property assessments and taxes for government (aka: renters will pay more)

    Third: Gov. will require new utility funded programs (added to insulation, appliance, etc. energy programs) to rewire (aka: utility customers will pay more)

    Four: Home owners will be offered tax rebates and tax credits for rewiring by funded by government (aka: new taxes needed to fund "tax rebates and credits" therefore taxpayers will pay more).

    In each of the above cases, government will skim, roughly, 50% of programs' costs and use it to fund "pork barrel projects" to buy votes and campaign contributions.

    After all of this, then it will be discovered that our homes, businesses and lands are turning into heavy metal toxic waste dumps and then require super fund cleanups (repeat steps one through four as needed).

    Seriously, be very careful about changing CFL and other mercury filled bulbs... OR:

    http://www.foxnews.com/printer_friendly_story/0,3566,268747,00.html
    ...According to an April 12 article in The Ellsworth American, Bridges had the misfortune of breaking a CFL during installation in her daughter’s bedroom: It dropped and shattered on the carpeted floor.

    Aware that CFLs contain potentially hazardous substances, Bridges called her local Home Depot for advice. The store told her that the CFL contained mercury and that she should call the Poison Control hotline, which in turn directed her to the Maine Department of Environmental Protection.

    The DEP sent a specialist to Bridges’ house to test for mercury contamination. The specialist found mercury levels in the bedroom in excess of six times the state’s “safe” level for mercury contamination of 300 billionths of a gram per cubic meter.

    The DEP specialist recommended that Bridges call an environmental cleanup firm, which reportedly gave her a “low-ball” estimate of $2,000 to clean up the room. The room then was sealed off with plastic and Bridges began “gathering finances” to pay for the $2,000 cleaning. Reportedly, her insurance company wouldn’t cover the cleanup costs because mercury is a pollutant.

    Given that the replacement of incandescent bulbs with CFLs in the average U.S. household is touted as saving as much as $180 annually in energy costs — and assuming that Bridges doesn’t break any more CFLs — it will take her more than 11 years to recoup the cleanup costs in the form of energy savings....

    ...Don’t vacuum bulb debris because a standard vacuum will spread mercury-containing dust throughout the area and contaminate the vacuum. Ventilate the area and reduce the temperature. Wear protective equipment like goggles, coveralls and a dust mask.

    Collect the waste material into an airtight container. Pat the area with the sticky side of tape. Wipe with a damp cloth. Finally, check with local authorities to see where hazardous waste may be properly disposed....

    I use, and have broken, CFL's--I have removed my carpets because because I believe that they do trap all sorts of nasty junk (I guess now add mercury to that list). And, I will now have to be much more careful.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • System2System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    Re: In the News: Proposed Bans on Sale of Incandescent Bulbs

    Canada has decided to ban the sale of regular bulbs by 2012, leaving 5 years for industry to adjust.
    I've been using them for about 20 years now (paid almost $60.00 for the first 15 watt ones) and see a huge difference in the performance of the newer designs. Far better than earlier ones.
    Yes, there are some drawbacks, but the good far outweighs the bad and I'll never go back.
    Wayne
  • halfcrazyhalfcrazy Solar Expert Posts: 720 ✭✭✭
    Re: In the News: Proposed Bans on Sale of Incandescent Bulbs

    This will always be a very heated discussion. But to ban the incadescnts is a little harsh i think. i use all cf bulbs myself being totally offgrid it makes a huge difference but i dont agree with a lot of the goverment bullying so i have to lean towards let the people decide make shure they are educated on there choices but let them decide.
  • BrockBrock Solar Expert Posts: 633 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: In the News: Proposed Bans on Sale of Incandescent Bulbs

    This is a tough one. Let’s say the US government didn't mandate people bought unleaded gasoline and didn't require the manufactures to make the switch to unleaded in their vehicles. Would we have ever made the switch? Would consumers be willing to pay an extra $.10 a gallon to burn cleaner safer fuel? I bet not. To me this is the same sort of thing.

    The upside for me is it means we will see a LOT more options for CF's.

    Hey do CCFT's use mercury as well?
    3kw solar PV, 8 L16's, xw 5548, Honda eu2000i, iota DLS-54-13, Leaf EV, 4 ton horizontal geothermal, grid tied - Green Bay, WI
  • System2System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    Re: In the News: Proposed Bans on Sale of Incandescent Bulbs

    heres some real food for thought as well:

    http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/financialpost/story.html?id=aa7796aa-e4a5-4c06-be84-b62dee548fda

    yowza! all good points. i know for a fact my city recycles CFL's but yes, what about accidents?
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,046 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: In the News: Proposed Bans on Sale of Incandescent Bulbs
    mattl wrote:
    i know for a fact my city recycles CFL's but yes, what about accidents?

    Los Angles does not, but you can optionally take them to the haz mat roundup twice a year.

    Accidents cost $2,000 roughly, per room to clean, and you can then buy new carpet.

    another summary here http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/04/30/1557242 Brandy Bridges of Ellsworth, Maine
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
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  • BrockBrock Solar Expert Posts: 633 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: In the News: Proposed Bans on Sale of Incandescent Bulbs

    Fortunately my work, University of Wisconsin at Green Bay, we recycle all sorts of F & CF lamps and they encourage people to bring their old ones from home in. So I do.
    3kw solar PV, 8 L16's, xw 5548, Honda eu2000i, iota DLS-54-13, Leaf EV, 4 ton horizontal geothermal, grid tied - Green Bay, WI
  • System2System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    Re: In the News: Proposed Bans on Sale of Incandescent Bulbs

    Not joking and not sarcastic, this is a serious question:

    If the CFL's are so dangerous, how come Lawyers haven't sued everyone involved, from the manufacturer, to the wholesaler, to the retailer, right down to the kid who carries out the bags for the final customer? This kind of info spreads through insurance companies like wildfire, they should by now be canceling the insurance on every policy holder that uses CFL's.

    Your comments?

    Wayne
  • System2System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    Re: In the News: Proposed Bans on Sale of Incandescent Bulbs

    nah,

    as the article in the link i posted shows, insurance just denies that claim. but you have a point re: lawyers. im sure some will find a way to profit ;)
  • halfcrazyhalfcrazy Solar Expert Posts: 720 ✭✭✭
    Re: In the News: Proposed Bans on Sale of Incandescent Bulbs

    The term "mountain out of a mole hill" comes to mind. i understand there are traces of mercury in them and we should respect that but i seem to remember my local recycle center breaks all the tube flourescents in a 55 gallon drum and it would seem there would be a lot more mercury in those then a cfl?
  • System2System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    Re: In the News: Proposed Bans on Sale of Incandescent Bulbs

    Yes, part of my job in the past was handling thousands of 4 and 8 foot tubes and I've often seen a small ball or two of mercury rolling around inside the glass before they were put in service. Haven't yet seen that in CFs. Very interesting. Never thought much about it, used to play with balls of mercury when I was a kid. Never ate any, though I was told that it would go through your digestive tract like a bomb, but never saw that, or knew anyone who did first hand.
    If a broken CF could result in such an expensive clean up, what would be the result of a broken older style Honeywell thermostat? The kind that many still have in use today, the kind I used to get the mercury from, to play with?
    My mom, a retired RN (now 91) used to tell of trying to gather up the little balls of mercury when the old thermometers would get accidentally broken, like when a patient chomped down on one while having their temp taken, or flew out of the Nurses hand, or struck something when shaking it down in preparation for the next patient.
    I am very well aware that mercury can be very dangerous, but often wonder if such things are sometimes blown out of all proportions when it comes to reality.
    By the way, re the thermostats, the newer ones won't last 40 or 50 years like the old Honeywell ones, the newer ones are electronic and have a non-replaceable watch type battery. Wonder how it fails when the battery goes dead, will the furnace come on and stay on, turning your house into an oven, or will it shut off and freeze / burst your pipes? Perhaps you should stay home for the Winter and forget those vacations.
    Can you say: “Built in obsolescence”
    Wayne
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