XW inverter charger behavior @120V

mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 8,609 ✭✭✭✭✭
Got a question, likely SG can answer. The charger in the XW inverters, will it run (charge) from a 120V genset, or will it need 240V to charge ? Being off grid, I won't have a 240V genset this year.
Home Depot has this on sale Honeywell HW2000i $300 just got one.

edit:
PS Honeywell Inverter gensets are MOD-sine output - no good for transformers

50% power = 3.3KWh per gallon
Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
|| Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
|| VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

«13

Comments

  • halfcrazyhalfcrazy Solar Expert Posts: 720 ✭✭✭
    Re: XW inverter charger behavior @120V

    The XW will not work with a 120 only generator. You could get a balancing transformer but that is likely as expensive as a Home Depot generator
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 8,609 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: XW inverter charger behavior @120V
    halfcrazy wrote: »
    The XW will not work with a 120 only generator. You could get a balancing transformer but that is likely as expensive as a Home Depot generator

    Ah, but it's a "solid" investment, and they don't go bad. Guess I'll have to look for that, which will cost about the same as a hefty 120VAC 48V charger. I know I can tell the XW to limit the charge amps, to not cook anything.

    So I'm looking at these 3:
    Xantrex T240 3.9 kva (Enclosure & ckt brkrs) 39.4lb
    OutBack FW-X240 4 kVA 120/240 (bare bones & 25A bkr) 40lb
    OutBack PSX-240 4 kVA (Enclosure & ckt brkrs)

    Any feedback on which is easier to install stand-alone in generator shed?
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • halfcrazyhalfcrazy Solar Expert Posts: 720 ✭✭✭
    Re: XW inverter charger behavior @120V

    I have used a lot of the Xantrex T240's and they are very simple. Either way you need the enclosure so that leaves out the middle outback. Keep you're eyes open for a used Xantrex T240 hey pop up on ebay now and then.
  • BrockBrock Solar Expert Posts: 633 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: XW inverter charger behavior @120V

    Honestly I would just get an iota charger. I have one and can use either an idling car with a 1600w MSW inverter or an old 120vac genset I have to power the charger. If you have a smaller genset and run it through a transformer I am guessing the XW inverter will likely pick up and drop the AC input as the generator bounces under motor starts. It might not matter and the XW will pick up the slack, but I have found it much easier to just feed the batteries directly.
    3kw solar PV, 8 L16's, xw 5548, Honda eu2000i, iota DLS-54-13, Leaf EV, 4 ton horizontal geothermal, grid tied - Green Bay, WI
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 8,609 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: XW inverter charger behavior @120V
    Brock wrote: »
    Honestly I would just get an iota charger. I have one and can use either an idling car with a 1600w MSW inverter or an old 120vac genset I have to power the charger.

    Well, it might be going back ... The Honeywell is a Mod-Sine inverter !! That's not going to drive a transformer (for very long) So if the iota can take mod-sine input (gotta look up if they are transformerless or not ["Switch-Mode Tech"] that looks like I still have a keeper, but they only have a 48V 15A model sort of light for a 400ha battery bank (750W)

    IOTA update - just got off the phone to them, and they warranty their chargers even if used on DC. They said it may not give full output on a inverter style generator, and using the Dual Voltage Jack, it provides 56.8V for battery bulk charging.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • dwhdwh Solar Expert Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭
    Re: XW inverter charger behavior @120V
    mike90045 wrote: »
    Well, it might be going back ... The Honeywell is a Mod-Sine inverter !! That's not going to drive a transformer (for very long) So if the iota can take mod-sine input (gotta look up if they are transformerless or not ["Switch-Mode Tech"] that looks like I still have a keeper, but they only have a 48V 15A model sort of light for a 400ha battery bank (750W)

    IOTA update - just got off the phone to them, and they warranty their chargers even if used on DC. They said it may not give full output on a inverter style generator, and using the Dual Voltage Jack, it provides 56.8V for battery bulk charging.

    I'm not sure you are correct about the HW2000i being a "mod-sine" generator.

    First of all, sinusoid is sinusoid. As I understand it, what we call MSW stands for "modified SQUARE wave" not "modified SINE wave".

    Second, if you look at the wiring diagrams of the Honda EU2000i and the HW2000i, you see that they both use what looks like the same sort of winding (3-phase??) feeding into the inverter. I doubt that one puts out sine wave and the other puts out square wave.

    I have one of these HW2000i gens on order - Amazon estimates the delivery date as Sept. 11th - though FedEx says the 10th. I don't have an oscilloscope (and wouldn't know how to use one if I did), but I bet I can find someone around here who has one (maybe a local trade school) - so I suppose I'll have to find someone to scope out the Honeywell's wave form.

    I wish any of the Home Depots in my area carried these things for $299...as far as I can tell that's a closeout price that pops up now and again at random Home Depot locations. None in my area even have this gen in stock.
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 30,048 admin
    Re: XW inverter charger behavior @120V

    Marketing speak seems to use MSW "Modified Sine Wave"--but Modified Square Wave is probably the correct term.

    Given that the website (www.honeywellgenerators.com) says nothing about what kind of inverter it is ("sine" wave only appears in a electrical definition FAQ--and "square" does not show up at all), even in the owner's manual (that I could find), and they could probably charge more for the genset if it was a TSW type inverter...

    I would not bet that it is a True Sine Wave Inverter Generator.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 8,609 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: XW inverter charger behavior @120V
    dwh wrote: »
    I'm not sure you are correct about the HW2000i being a "mod-sine" generator.

    Then the help desk at Honeywell is wrong. I finally called them, and they said it was not a Pure sine inverter, that if i had expensive items, I should NOT use them on it.

    As to MSW, I agree, it DOES stand for modified square wave, but the PR spin and marketing types have swapped it around to weasel the word sine into it, to sucker in less sophisticated consumers.

    But since the Iota chargers will work with square wave or DC (I called them too), I'm back in business, and it will be less than the transformer. I have a Generac 5KW with 240 if I need to really burn gas in a hurry.

    I'm going to oil it up (shipped dry) and add gas, and see what it does. Too bad I don't have an O'scope at home to check it with.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 8,609 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: XW inverter charger behavior @120V
    dwh wrote: »
    Second, if you look at the wiring diagrams of the Honda EU2000i and the HW2000i, you see that they both use what looks like the same sort of winding (3-phase??) feeding into the inverter. I doubt that one puts out sine wave and the other puts out square wave.

    The alternator winding produces a wild AC sine wave, but after the inverter gets done with it, who knows what it could be.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • dwhdwh Solar Expert Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭
    Re: XW inverter charger behavior @120V

    B.B., I know that neither the web site nor the manual specifically states wave type; however, here is a .pdf from The Honeywell Store .com which, though it applies to the HW1000i rather than the HW2000i, does specifically state, "Clean Sine Wave" (look in the lower right table: row = "Added Features")

    http://www.honeywellstore.com/pdfs/2009/03/25/1af6f8e2.pdf

    There is also a review (don't forget the grain of salt) of the HW2000i which says:

    "The sine wave output looked pretty clean on my oscilloscope."

    http://www.amazon.com/review/R2OBZKQEH6ICWK


    I am quite aware of marketroid doublespeak - I remember that RAID originally stood for Redundant Array of INEXPENSIVE Disks - and also having trained tech support operators myself and not trusting most to have any clue what a wave is...I'll reserve judgment until I see the thing tested.



    mike90045 wrote: »
    But since the Iota chargers will work with square wave or DC (I called them too)


    Yes, I'll be using mine primarily to run a battery charger, almost certainly an Iota (and occasionally a small a/c unit).

    Right now I'm still trying to decide if it's worth it to bother with the IQ module. From what I've read, with AGM I probably wouldn't want the IQ/4 to auto-EQ the batteries every 7 days. According to the NAWS Deep Cycle Battery FAQ:

    "AGM and gelled should be equalized 2-4 times a year at most (some manufacturers do not recommend an equalizing charge)"

    http://www.solar-electric.com/deep_cycle_batteries/deep_cycle_battery_faq.htm#Battery%20Charging


    For that matter, I'm also still looking at the whole subject of "two-stage vs. three-stage" - I've seen several mentions that two-stage is better if you are charging the battery while there is a load running from the battery (and, for the most part, I will be).

    I was looking at a Samlex charger, and I saw this:

    "By means of a DIP switch setting, conversion to a two-stage algorithm is possible to charge batteries connected to a DC load (DC UPS)."

    http://www.samlexamerica.com/products/productdescription.asp?ProductsID=80021

    I also ran across this:

    http://www.donrowe.com/battery_charger/samlex_document.html

    "The choice is between a two or three-stage charger, depending upon its use:

    If there are permanent or transient loads on the battery during charging, a two-stage charger has the advantage because its circuits cannot be “fooled” into pushing a higher “absorption" voltage than required for charging.

    Without loads during charging, the three-stage charger has the advantage because it provides a more complete recharge. A two-stage charger provides a constant current until the battery reaches its rated capacity and then switches to a “float” voltage. The current then reduces as necessary to maintain the battery at the float voltage. The charger can be connected to the battery indefinitely. A two-stage charger is recommended in most instances since it is the most versatile and can be permanently connected to attenuate the characteristic discharge of unused batteries. A load can be put on the battery or batteries without altering its ability to keep the battery at optimal charge.

    A three-stage charger is the most complete charger. It charges the battery at a constant current until the battery voltage reaches a slightly elevated level. The battery is maintained at this voltage while the charging current diminishes to a low value, and then the battery is switched to the float voltage where it can be maintained indefinitely. However, the charger cannot differentiate between a current going to a load on the battery, or being absorbed by the battery, so it can overcharge a battery supplying current to a load. A two-stage charger is preferred for “loaded” batteries and a three-stage for idle or “unloaded” batteries during recharging. Samlex chargers which offer 3 stage charging can be switched to 2 stage if required by simply Adjusting a dip switch."



    So, I'm still in the research stage as far as chargers...
  • BrockBrock Solar Expert Posts: 633 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: XW inverter charger behavior @120V

    Yes the iota can accept just about anything on the input side, amazing little boxes. You can also parallel them if necessary. Right now I have a single DLS 54.4-15 for my 48v 500-amp AGM bank. It draws about 900w or 1100VA running flat out but it sometimes trips my 1200w x-power mod sine inverter but is fine on the x-power 1750w unit. I am guess it is a power factor or inductive load on the inverter. So if I had to guess the HW2000i wouldn't power two of these.

    I wouldn't bother with the IQ4, I guess if that’s all your using it for the finish charge on batteries, but without the jumper plug in it charges to 54.4 and with the plug in it is 56.8 which is below what the top end my AGM's are rated for, I usually use it without the jumper, running at 54.4. While it's not a lot of power for the battery bank it is more than enough to keep me on the positive side of power use if needed. Also a single iota is just about right for an idling car / truck that has a 105 or larger alternator or an 80 amp alternator with the idle bumped up a bit.
    3kw solar PV, 8 L16's, xw 5548, Honda eu2000i, iota DLS-54-13, Leaf EV, 4 ton horizontal geothermal, grid tied - Green Bay, WI
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 8,609 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: XW inverter charger behavior @120V

    I'll have to remember the
    Vehicle Idleing,
    1500W mod sine inverter, feeding
    Iota Charger
    if I get stuck.
    Thanks
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • RCinFLARCinFLA Solar Expert Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭
    Re: XW inverter charger behavior @120V

    The three phase alternator with fullwave rectifiers produces a pretty good D.C. level for an inverter.

    The D.C. voltage is a function of engine rpm's and load. This also gives the ability to lower the rpm of the engine for lighter loads.

    For my Yamaha EF3000i the D.C. level is between 190 vdc and 280 vdc. EF3000i is true sinewave inverter so it needs to keep above 180 vdc for peak of sinewave inverter PWM. For a MSW inverter it would have to stay above 155 vdc.

    The down side on the less then 3KW sinewave inverter gens is they are H-bridge output meaning the neutral should not be grounded.
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 8,609 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: XW inverter charger behavior @120V

    From my recent edits to the Amazon Product Review:

    After being unable to discover anywhere in the product info, I called the 888-Honeywell phone, to inquire about the type of inverter. This unit saves quite a bit of money, by using a mod-sine inverter, it is not a pure sinewave, like utility power or other inverter generators. Transformer based items, and induction motors may not work well. "Universal" motors should be fine. For my application, using an Iota 48V, 15A charger will let me utilize my purchase, but not as fully as I wanted to. (it will not power the charger in an XW6048 inverter/charger).
    It will be several months before I have the off grid system running, but initial look-see and start up is OK

    The oil fill port, is used as the oil drain port, with a 6" plastic pipe nipple (supplied) threaded into it, and you tilt to drain. A bit "Tacky", I wonder how Honda does theirs?

    Starting, was uneventful, I started with 1gal in the tank, 40 primers, choke and about 4 rope pulls. Switch the choke right off, and no problem (Los Angeles, afternoon, about 78F). Restarts seemed to want choke, just to fire, then it was fine.

    I used my 10A shop vac to apply a test load. With "normal" setting, the engine lugged down a bit and then kept going. With "Eco" about the same thing, a little longer (2 sec) for the engine to recover, but on a nice flat cement slab, the torque and throttle, actually twisted the genset around about 10 degrees, sticky rubber cushion feet and all.

    I was disappointed the Eco setting did not idle the engine back a little further, but then again, it struggled when I threw the 10A shop vac at it.

    Using a Kill-a-Watt power monitor, I read 122VAC, 57.8 HZ, load or no load. Power Factor of the vac was .9 Amps draw was 11.1A .
    Same vac on the house outlet was PF .9 too, but amps 10.5 @ 118VAC 59.9HZ I cannot tell what sort of motor the shop vac uses, and if a square wave would run it different. So as to it's wave form, I'm still undecided, if mod sine, or pure sine.

    Sound level, seems louder than I expected, but I've got no meter to check with. Air flow - the engine cooling air exits via the black grill at the end, shared by the exhaust outlet. It's pretty warm, and I wonder what 2 or 3 hours of runtime will do to the plastic shell.

    The EPA sticker rates it as 125 hour life, for it's emissions rating, so maybe that 2 year warranty will come in handy. I'm looking at about 5-10 hours usage a week, for off grid battery charging @ 900W .
    Mike

    other links about the HW gen:
    http://www.motorhomemagazine.com/boards/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/22886791/gotomsg/22981327.cfm#22981327
    or http://tinyurl.com/onbg58 or http://tinyurl.com/o49b25
    http://www.honeywellgenerators.com/generators/


    I've managed to hijack my own thread !
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • RCinFLARCinFLA Solar Expert Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭
    Re: XW inverter charger behavior @120V

    I doubt the Kill-A-Watt meter will be very accurate on MSW. The PF is probably totally bogus.

    The frequency is a little surprizing (that it is that bad). With a cheap 32 Khz watch crystal it should be more accurate.
  • GreenerPowerGreenerPower Solar Expert Posts: 264 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: XW inverter charger behavior @120V

    The Kill-A-Watt "P3" version is OK to measure MSW - RMS, frequency values are pretty good (and hence wattage and KWhrs). PF is OK also but I'm not sure what's the definition for PF for a MSW - using the primary sine components of voltage and current ?
    GP
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 8,609 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: XW inverter charger behavior @120V
    RCinFLA wrote: »
    The frequency is a little surprizing (that it is that bad). With a cheap 32 Khz watch crystal it should be more accurate.

    Apparently, they found something cheaper !! (it is made in China) I did check it twice, to make sure it was reporting right, and I was reading right.

    As long as the XW has a better Fq. Standard.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • dwhdwh Solar Expert Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭
    Re: XW inverter charger behavior @120V

    My HW2000i got delivered last week (conspiracy theory: Amazon made me wait a week before shipping just so that I'll be more likely to spend the extra for speedy delivery next time (Unlikely, not my style to rush.)).

    I took it out of the box and gave it a once over. All the screws, nuts and bolts that I could reach are tight. The spark plug is tight and the wire is on. Air filter is good to go.

    The choke lever was completely out of sight when I took it out of the box, but after removing the access panel I can see that the panel itself acts as the stop for the choke lever in the "off" position. If you remove the cover you can push the lever a hair farther and replace the cover and the choke handle is hidden. Remove the cover and push the choke handle to center and replace the cover and the choke handle then remains accessible.

    I pulled on the starter rope a few times and it feels like a tight new 125cc motor...not exactly easy to pull, but not particularly hard either.

    It was obviously test-run at the factory as there is a gas smell in the tank and trace oil in the crankcase. No, it's not a return, the box still had it's original factory staples in place and it has a factory tag on the handle stating that the oil was drained prior to shipping.

    It has a fuel pump (another factor in my purchase - had to have a fuel pump so I could make an extended run setup for it without gravity feed) and an easily replaceable fuel filter.

    I haven't filled it with oil and gas and fired it up yet. I want to get the hour meter before I fire it up. That way as soon as I verify that it runs and works, I can shut it down and immediately install the meter. Plus I still need to fab a box on the back of the camper to hold it and I want to get a Kill-A-Watt to keep in the camper.

    I may drill a hole(s) in the case below the oil fill/check port. I can easily see that there WILL be oil drips/spills and I don't want them collecting there. I will use a rag of course, but getting my hand in there is tight...

    The oil/air filter/fuel filter access port in the back should be bigger. There is plenty of clearance from internal works for the access to be bigger - and I can hardly get my hand in there to screw/unscrew the oil fill/check plug much less clean up any spills.

    The quality is better than what I expected, and the fit and finish are pretty good. The plastic housing is a softer more flexible material than I expected as well. I doubt it would crack easily if it gets bumped and banged about a bit.

    More to come...
  • dwhdwh Solar Expert Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭
    Re: XW inverter charger behavior @120V

    Well, I finally got around to building a box on the camper for the generator and fired it up today. No pics yet, still haven't replaced my camera.

    Anyway...

    First I pulled the spark plug out and checked the gap, it was within limits, but on the close side so I opened it up a bit. Then I filled it with oil. Just as I anticipated, you can't really tell how much oil is in there until it starts to overflow - which means it lands in a puddle in the bottom of the case. I was able to clean it up with a rag and a long screwdriver, but I'll definitely be drilling a hole in the bottom of the case to let the spills out.

    The primer bulb doesn't actually pump gas. The fuel pump is vacuum powered, and the primer bulb makes vacuum to operate the fuel pump. Gave it 30 pushes (30-50 is recommended if the system has been run dry - and it was at the factory).

    Set the choke and opened the petcock and it took 3 pulls to fire it first time. After that, it's been starting with one or two pulls, but I haven't let it sit long between runs. According to the manual, you turn the choke off after it's been running for 2 seconds, and they aren't kidding - it smokes pretty good if you forget to turn off the choke...and naturally in the interests of science I had to forg...um...leave the choke on for a while.

    Right now, it's running the battery charger for the aux battery in the camper and my laptop. The charger is an old 10a Schumacher which is hard-wired into the camper. Running off the aux battery is one inside light - an 1141...still haven't fitted out the 8w florescents. I notice that there are some rattles coming from the box I built, but I'm planning to dynamat the inside of it later.

    The box I made out of old bed frames (good tough angle iron there) and I found one of these used for $60.00:

    http://www.pickuptrucktoolboxes.com/Delta/Delta_value/delta_dac_aluminum_crossover_toolboxes.htm

    It was cheap because the welds were all coming apart, which was fine with me since I planned to hack it apart anyway and use the aluminum sheet to make the generator box. And I did. Came with a key too, so I used the lockable latch.

    The gen is running in econo mode and every now and again it'll rev a bit and then settle down.

    From the outside, with the box closed and standing across the street you pretty much can barely hear the gen running. From inside the camper it's definitely vibro-sonic in a big way. The dynamat should help that some.

    After a LOT of looking around, I finally found these:

    http://enmco.thomasnet.com/viewitems/enm-counting-instruments-tach-hour-meters/tach-hour-meters-pt16-tachometer?&plpver=1001&forward=1

    I ordered one the other day - 18 bucks plus 7 for UPS ground. I was going to just go with an hour meter, but this was such a good deal that I couldn't pass it up. It hasn't arrived yet. Saw somewhere that it says 8 year battery life where most say 5 years.

    The box I built is 28 inches wide, and the gen is 21, so I have room to rig an exhaust pipe. I'll probably use the flex stuff into an extra muffler and route it out the bottom of the box. Before I do that though, I want to build in some padded supports to make sure the gen can't shift around at all. It's pretty solid right now, but I'll want it absolutely solid before I try attaching an external pipe to it.

    More to come...
  • dwhdwh Solar Expert Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭
    Re: XW inverter charger behavior @120V

    So, here's an update to the Honeywell HW2000i story. Maybe it should have its own thread...

    Haven't written an Amazon review yet - wanted to wait until I've had the gen a while.


    Anyway...Gen #1 bit the dust at 21 hours. It must have shorted in the stator or something. What happened is, when you fired it up, after a few seconds the green "Ready" light would come on (that's normal behavior). Immediately, the red "Overload" light would come on and then both lights would go off.

    While that was going on, every time the overload light came on, the control board would sense a load and start to rev up the engine...but it wouldn't get very far, just a bit of rev before the lights go out and it revs back down.

    Rinse and repeat ad. infinitum. Each cycle took about 3-4 seconds.

    It had two other problems as well - 1) The primer bulb had been sucked inward so drastically, that the flat head on the plunger had cut through the rubber (not a safety issue - the primer doesn't pump gas - it pumps vacuum to operate the vacuum powered fuel pump...so no gas ever gets in the primer bulb...the bulb is really just a protective cover for the pump plunger...and probably also a seal against a vacuum leak now that I think about how the first one sucked in so badly), and 2) the little plastic covers over the econo and run switches had fallen off. It looks very much to me like they were stuck on with spirit gum. I'm serious...when it gets hot the glue just drips like honey.

    So I called the support line and they told me just take it to one of the authorized repair places and it's all good. So I called the nearest one, and they said that there must be some mistake - they service Kipor but not Honeywell. So I called the next closest and they said bring it on down.

    When I dropped it off, the guy had two others sitting there in the boxes waiting to be picked up for return. One had the same problem as mine, the other had a cracked air cleaner box. In both cases, the company just sent out replacement generators, because since this thing is so new - THERE ARE NO REPAIR PARTS AVAILABLE YET. I asked the guy if he could order me a fuel filter (there are some parts that are sold to the public on the web site, but the support folks told me there are more parts available to the repair guys and it looks like the fuel filter is one of them) and the guy looked it up and told me 19.95!

    Personally, I think the guy was just trying to get me to buy one of his little lawnmower fuel filters for 8.95 (which is still a rip-off price).

    So, 9 days later the shop called and told me to come pick up my brand new replacement. I went there and they had kindly gassed it up and filled it with oil and tested it out. Fair enough, since the one I brought in had half a tank of gas.

    I asked the guy what oil he put in and he said, "30 weight. We use 30 weight in all these small engines" (it's really a lawnmower shop). I said, "Well, okay but...the manual specs 15w-40." He said, "Oh..."

    The repair guy did confirm that the gen section had shorted out. (The stator? I'm not sure exactly...he was a bit vague about that.)

    So I changed the oil and stuck it in the gen box and fired it up and ran a full tank of gas through it (1.5 gallons). In econo running the battery charger and the laptop with one 1141 light on inside the camper it ran for 10.5 hours. Sweet.

    Next time, I ran another full tank through it with the same load and it ran for 8.5 hours. Hrmmm.

    Now it had a problem...the econo and run switches were stuck. I literally could NOT move them by hand. And I'm a BIG boy...14" forearms and my wrists are basically 2x4. Stuck. Like welded stuck. Weird.

    But, I had an idea of what the problem was...

    Next time around, I ran another full tank through it and it ran for 9.5 hours. After it had gotten thoroughly warmed up, I pulled off the little covers on the switches (came off super easy) and sure enough, that spirit gum crap glue was running out of the switches, and I could move them easily.

    Once I did that and the glue ran out, the switches have been fine. No other problems at all, and the primer bulb has not sucked in like the first one either.

    At that point it had 27.5 hours on it, so I gave it the "25 hour, after break-in" oil change. I've only run it a bit here and there since - it's at around 33 hours now with no problems. It hasn't used a drop of oil that I can see, and it has not exhibited the occasional random small rev-up that the first one did out of the box. Perhaps the first one had a dodgy stator from the factory.

    I haven't had a chance to arrange an oscilloscope session to check out the waveform yet.


    It's been a bit cool the last few days. This morning I went out at 5am to try firing it in the cold (yea I know, SoCal doesn't get truly cold). The outside temp was about 38 degrees F. The gen didn't want to start. Normally, 3-4 pulls on the rope and it fires right up. This morning, I must have yanked it 30 times before it fired. Also, normally you turn off the choke after the engine has been running for 2 seconds (per the manual). This morning, I did that and it died. I yanked 10 more times before it fired, and I had to let it warm up with half-choke for a few minutes (something like 3 minutes) before it would run smoothly with the choke off.


    I haven't tried it with any heavy electrical loads yet - I wanted to break it in nice and easy in econo before I loaded it down.

    I waited till it hit 21 hours before I installed the hour meter so that the meter would match what the new gen has on it hours-wise (the meter is not resettable).
  • maverick06maverick06 Registered Users Posts: 20
    Re: XW inverter charger behavior @120V

    Well i pulled the trigger and bought a hw2000i from Amazon. $479. With free shipping (5-9 days) It showed up in 48 hours, delivered on saturday! Happy about that. The box and the outter case were in perfect condition, but I opened up the back pannel to check the fuel line (read about people finding theirs kinked) but found that (what appears to be the air filter box) was broken away from the carb! YAY, busted on delivery. Now, I have a dealer about an hour and a half away from me, and can get it fixed/replaced there, but this is just broken, non load bearing plastic.... so against most people's better judgement I put some JB weld on it and glued it back on. I think this will work just fine. I saw there are 2 tubes going into the filter.... not sure what they are there for... not sure if it was a bad idea. If this doesnt work, then its off to the dealer where they hopefully wont care that I tried to seal the crack....

    Anyways, Figured you all would be interested in what it looks like on the inside (if you havent opened yours up).

    a3104033-180-IMG_1268.jpg?d=1267926273

    Not sure what the black "box" is on the bottom left of the picture above. Also looks like it has a tube connection at the bottom, but there wasnt any tube connected to it.

    a3104036-215-IMG_1269.jpg?d=1267926273

    a3104037-9-IMG_1270.jpg?d=1267926273

    Does this look like an acceptable fix? hope so! Will fire it up tomorrow, probably, dependeing on how well the fix looks tomorrow. ugh
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 30,048 admin
    Re: XW inverter charger behavior @120V

    Sorry to see the damage--I would get them to at least send you the parts. No use to live with the repairs.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • maverick06maverick06 Registered Users Posts: 20
    Re: XW inverter charger behavior @120V

    FYI, fired it up this morning and let it run for about a half hour with a mild load on it 350W or so (read its not good to let them sit with no load as the piston rings wont always seat correctly). Anyways, worked great loaded it only up to about 1250 watts. It bogged down a bit when i first turned on the hair dryer, but took the load nice and quick. Very pleased. Will run it some more tomorrow then will the cylinder with oil and store it in the basement until power goes out.

    Thanks for the help!
  • VicVic Solar Expert Posts: 2,985 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: XW inverter charger behavior @120V

    Thanks for the detailed info dwh & maverick06. Interesting, looks like a nice product, and from maverick's photos, looks to be well made (not that one can tell tons from photos). Perhaps they are just getting the initial bugs worked out.

    Good Luck, Vic
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH [email protected], 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
  • maverick06maverick06 Registered Users Posts: 20
    Re: XW inverter charger behavior @120V

    More info now.
    First half hour at about 350watts, so far so good
    Next hour at about 750-900 watts (so far so good)

    BUT

    but it was twilight when I was running the longer breakin, I noticed that the overload light was dimly lit. At 150 watts it was extremely dim and at 750 watts it was a bit brighter, and at 1400 watts it was brighter still. It is still massively less bright than the power ready light. So what does this mean? I am not overloading the generator specs(2000w), I dont think I should be concerned.... am I right? here is a picture at about 800 watts.


    a3110763-87-IMG_1287.JPG?d=1268177029

    I also installed a hour meter / tach on it, works great! about $19 off ebay

    a3110769-222-IMG_1283.JPG?d=1268177321

    Paranoia aside, the generator is very nice so far! I know people have had problems with that, but so far I am very happy! I wonder if the problem stems from the oil people are using. It specifies 15w40, which you can get, but a 15w40 high detergent oil, this is more common for diesel engines (i drive one) the high detergent aspect lets it accomadate more particulates in the oil, from wear or combistion byproducts. It seems like a strange engine oil to choose. If people expirance engine failures, this might be the cause. Electrical failures are obviously a seperate issue.

    Rick

    Thanks,
    Rick
  • dwhdwh Solar Expert Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭
    Re: XW inverter charger behavior @120V

    I'm planning to post an update after I get my gen fixed - or replaced (yes, AGAIN).

    [maverick06 - when I took my first one in to the shop, the guy had two there boxed up to send back. One had had the same problem as mine (RPM surging, described above) and the other had had - a broken air cleaner box. In both cases, the company sent out replacement generators because THERE WERE NO REPLACEMENT PARTS AVAILABLE.]



    Anyway,

    My replacement gen has gone south at about 60 hours with a different bug - this time it was humming along nicely in Econo Mode (running nothing but my 10a Shumacher charger) and it slowly started increasing RPM. And it just kept going. I thought it might be a temporary thing, so I unplugged the charger and let the gen run a few minutes but it just kept increasing.

    Finally, when it sounded like a berserk chainsaw on steroids and I figured it was gonna blow up from overspeed I shut it down. I let it cool off overnight and fired it up again the next day and it did the same thing. (Being a Space Cadet, I completely forgot to check the RPM meter to see how much faster than its 5k RPM max it was going. Duh.)

    One of these days I'll get around to dropping it off at the repair shop.

    My WAG would be that either the stepper motor on the carb (clearly seen next to the choke lever in the center of maverick's second pic of the inside) went bad, or the board that controls the stepper motor went bad.

    -=-=-=-=-=-=-

    That whacky black plastic box with the hoses running into it is the California CARB compliant charcoal canister (A.K.A. The Fume Catcher). Gas fumes from the fuel tank vent into that thing, and then when the engine runs it sucks the fumes out of the box and burns them. Same effect as a charcoal canister on a car or motorcycle.

    I think that that box would very likely prevent a "Honda Style" extra fuel tank mod from working with the 2k Honeywell. The 1k Honeywell doesn't have that, and according to the manual you have to open the vent on the fuel cap when you run the hw1000i, so it should work with the Honda mod no problem.

    -=-=-=-=-=-=-

    I see that your fuel pump is not there, so the viewers can't see how the primer thingee pumps vacuum to operate the fuel pump.

    Note: Something I noticed when I first got mine and I'm in favor of - the drain plug on the carb bowl. That's a nice design touch.
  • dwhdwh Solar Expert Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭
    Re: XW inverter charger behavior @120V

    Another update to HW2000i story...

    I finally dropped off #2 at the shop. First, I called the shop that I had taken #1 to, but he said he doesn't do Honeywells anymore. I asked why and he said that "it's not worth my time". Apparently the company's standard diagnostic pay rate wasn't enough for him to bother with. (Personally, I think he might have been a bit snobbish, but that's another story.)

    So, I called the third shop on the Honeywell web site list of shops in my area (as I mentioned before, the first one on the list (the closest) told me that they never were a Honeywell repair center). Anyway, that guy told me to call Honeywell first. I already knew what they were going to say, but this repair guy was from Korea and we were having some trouble communicating. So I called Honeywell and was told to take it to the nearest shop. So I took it there and dropped it off on April 2nd.

    The first time, the repair guy called me after 9 days to say I could pick up my replacement. This time, two weeks went by and then I called the repair shop. He told me that he had called Honeywell and was waiting for a call back. So I called Honeywell. Their customer service is outsourced, so that guy had to check it out and call me back. He called me the next day and said he'd spoken to "the company" and that they were trying to find someone who could speak Korean since they had called the repair shop but no one could understand the repair guy over the phone.

    I waited another week and called the repair shop again, and he said he was still waiting for a call back. I called tech support again, and again he had to check on it and call me back. When he did, he said that the company didn't have any Korean speakers, so they were sending out an actual human being to talk directly with the repair guy.

    I waited another two weeks, and called the repair guy again, and he said he was still waiting for a call back. I called tech support again and the guy checked it out and told me that they had sent someone out to the repair shop and were going to go ahead and replace the generator.

    A couple of weeks later, I called the repair guy, and he said, "It no come to house yet?" I told him no, it hadn't come to the house, but last time they shipped it to the shop for me to pickup. He said "it come to house". So, I called tech support again, and the guy (I always asked for the same CSR rep no matter who answered, since he knew what was going on) seemed a bit shocked that this still hadn't been resolved. So he called and checked and called me back and it seems that the company had sent a tech out to the repair shop, who had diagnosed the gen and authorized replacement, but I guess there was some todo with the repair shop owner and the upshot is that that shop (the last one close to me) was now no longer a Honeywell repair shop and was to be removed from the web site list. So, anyway...the replacement was to be shipped to my house.

    A few more weeks went by, and still no replacement, so I called tech support again, and he called the company again, and called me back again and...wait for it...here it comes...

    They ran out of replacement generators. So now they are waiting for a fresh batch coming in on the slow boat from China.

    I couldn't get any firm ETA, so now I'm just waiting for that special day when I find that some mindless delivery guy left a $500 item sitting in plain sight on the front porch (that's how I got the first one - it was just sitting there when I got home.)

    I suppose it's too much to hope that the new batch from China will somehow be an improvement over the last batch...
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: XW inverter charger behavior @120V

    when it rains it pours.:roll:
  • maverick06maverick06 Registered Users Posts: 20
    Re: XW inverter charger behavior @120V

    Man that sucks! Sorry to hear about it. Mine is still sitting with only 1 hour on it waiting for power outages.

    I know the honeywell has its issues, but this really sounds like more of a problem with massively inferior customer suervice/repair centers.

    Good luck!
    Rick
  • dwhdwh Solar Expert Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭
    Re: XW inverter charger behavior @120V

    Another update:

    I got a call from a company that is a distributor and parts center for a bunch of manufacturers, including Honeywell, and they sent me out a replacement generator but no one was around to sign for it (yay! not left on the porch!) so I asked them to hold it at the shipping depot for me to pick it up and they called the shipper and it's no problem, they're holding it for me. I probably won't pick it up till after the 4th.

    Billiou's was the company that called me:

    http://www.billious.com/

    The guy who called me had the last name Billiou (pronounced "Bill Yew") so I guess he knows his way around the place.


    He told me that while there was some parts shortage due to Northshore's explosive growth, it was also company policy to send out a lot of replacements in order to get the broken ones back and analyze the failures.

    Which has led to the new and improved second generation HW2000i.

    Apparently they did away with the vacuum-pump primer doohickey and made some other changes. I guess I'll find out since he said the one they shipped me is one of the new ones.
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