New and have some questions...

Sparky
Sparky Registered Users Posts: 23
Hey everyone.

I've been reading about this solar thing for about a week. Trying to figure out how to build a small starter system just to learn something. I live in Florida and have power outages sometimes. have a small gas generator for now but, I want to build a small system for times when the power goes off, say for overnight or so.

Here's what I want to run in those times.
1 LCD TV about 150 watts
1 box fan in the bedroom to have some air moving.( no AC will be running)
2 or 3 lights just to see around the house. and most important, power my coffee pot in the morning, drip style.( nothing gets done until my coffee is brewed) :grr

I was thinking of a 200 watt panel of some kind, is this enough watts?

do control charges have diodes built in to keep the batteries from draining?

What size and how many batteries do I need?

What size inverter do I need too?


I can get about 5 or so hrs of good sunlight in the summer where the panel will go.

and last, are the DIY panels worth the time? seems people are using wood to build them. wont it rot out quick? please help I'm just a rookie


Lastly, To trade off for your help. I'm a self employed plumbing contractor. 34 yrs in the trade, 12 years doing my own thing. nothing fancy, just a working man. I'll be glad to answer some of your questions if you have any. thanks...

Comments

  • TnAndy
    TnAndy Solar Expert Posts: 249 ✭✭
    Re: New and have some questions...

    Welcome Sparky...


    Get a little more info for this system...

    Get the power draw on the box fan.....I know it isn't much, but still need it....hopefully, it will have a watt or amp rating on it.

    Same for the lights....

    Same for the coffee maker...

    Then come back !

    Also...1--24hr period the max you want to plan for ?

    andy
  • Sparky
    Sparky Registered Users Posts: 23
    Re: New and have some questions...

    Thanks Tnandy, my fan is old with no name plate. I've ordered a watt reader to check the items I mentioned. the coffee pot is 975 watt (wow). only on for 1.25 hrs.

    I want to run the TV about 8 hrs, lights when needed 20 watts.

    Is there a good guide I can find around here?

    I'll post again when I have all the watts, thanks.
  • hunter44102
    hunter44102 Registered Users Posts: 24
    Re: New and have some questions...

    An idea to save power on the coffee maker:

    You can get a maker that has a separate switch for the plate warmer, and keep that part off (this is what uses 700W+). BUNN makers usually have the two switches. Or it may be possible to disconnect just the plate.

    This way you only need like 100W and then you just pour the coffee in a thermos/thermal caraffe.
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: New and have some questions...

    sparky,
    i can understand the tv to a point as you'd become bored, but you'd save much to cut back on the watch time. also along those lines 12v muffin fans and leds may also help save on power usage. as to coffee i never touch the stuff, but isn't it like tea and can be brewed on a flame, say from propane?
    you overlooked one very important item and that's your refrigerator. this is more important than coffee or tv as you've got much invested in the contents of your refrigerator that could go bad before the next day when you get around to firing up that generator and that's if there's good gasoline available to run it. in fact, a good inverter generator is the way to go nowadays as they are easy on the gas, but batteries and inverters(with a good 3 stage charger) are the way to keep the peace during the evening.
    1 more note and that would be for you to get a good sine wave inverter rather than a modsine inverter to run refrigerators, fans, air conditioners, etc. and even some chargers for portable tools as many motors dislike modsine and if a modsine inverter doesn't blow it up or shorten its lifespan it will be certain to draw more power for most of the same items compared to a sine wave inverter. yes, sine wave inverters cost more, way more.
  • Sparky
    Sparky Registered Users Posts: 23
    Re: New and have some questions...
    An idea to save power on the coffee maker:

    You can get a maker that has a separate switch for the plate warmer, and keep that part off (this is what uses 700W+). BUNN makers usually have the two switches. Or it may be possible to disconnect just the plate.

    This way you only need like 100W and then you just pour the coffee in a thermos/thermal caraffe.


    Thanks, I can see now that my coffee making will need to be changed. might have to drag out the old perk camping one and throw it on the gas coleman. ;)
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: New and have some questions...

    Go to the camping store,,, buy a camp stove,,(which you should have for emergencies anyway) and buy a Coleman stove top drip style "MR Coffee". Works as well as the 120 vac one, using no electricity!
    As we say,, reducing the load is the cheapest PV $$.

    Tony
  • Sparky
    Sparky Registered Users Posts: 23
    Re: New and have some questions...
    niel wrote: »
    sparky,
    i can understand the tv to a point as you'd become bored, but you'd save much to cut back on the watch time. also along those lines 12v muffin fans and leds may also help save on power usage. as to coffee i never touch the stuff, but isn't it like tea and can be brewed on a flame, say from propane?
    you overlooked one very important item and that's your refrigerator. this is more important than coffee or tv as you've got much invested in the contents of your refrigerator that could go bad before the next day when you get around to firing up that generator and that's if there's good gasoline available to run it. in fact, a good inverter generator is the way to go nowadays as they are easy on the gas, but batteries and inverters(with a good 3 stage charger) are the way to keep the peace during the evening.
    1 more note and that would be for you to get a good sine wave inverter rather than a modsine inverter to run refrigerators, fans, air conditioners, etc. and even some chargers for portable tools as many motors dislike modsine and if a modsine inverter doesn't blow it up or shorten its lifespan it will be certain to draw more power for most of the same items compared to a sine wave inverter. yes, sine wave inverters cost more, way more.


    You make some great points Niel....I'm still trying to just figure out things.

    To be honest, I never knew a darn coffee pot drew so much wattage:confused:

    And the freg has been overlooked too. Would it make better since to get a smaller 12 volt tv just for this?

    I still have lots of questions, thanks and this is a great site I've found here.
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: New and have some questions...

    Sparky,

    Remember, watts is watts is watts. Watts is the measure of work done,,, and it doesn't matter if it comes from 12 volts or 120 volts. One advantage of 12 volts is that you may not have nverter losses.

    Tony
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: New and have some questions...

    very rough quick guess
    One 200W panel
    5 hours of sun
    = 1,000 watt hours harvested (1KW)

    After misc system losses (storing it in the battery and back out thru an inverter), you only have 50% of it left, so you have accumulated 500 watt hours you can "spend" any way you want.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • Sparky
    Sparky Registered Users Posts: 23
    Re: New and have some questions...
    mike90045 wrote: »
    very rough quick guess
    One 200W panel
    5 hours of sun
    = 1,000 watt hours harvested (1KW)

    After misc system losses (storing it in the battery and back out thru an inverter), you only have 50% of it left, so you have accumulated 500 watt hours you can "spend" any way you want.

    Could you answer this too. I want to store the watts generated to batteries.

    I notice batteries are rated in amp hrs, so how many watts will a battery hold?

    I think if i could just get the math part done here, I'll get it going. i'm jus trying to figure out how to calculate this battery stuff here, thanks.....



    Thanks to everyone posting in this thread, I've already learned more in this short thread.........than reading on the net all week....:D
  • Sparky
    Sparky Registered Users Posts: 23
    Re: New and have some questions...
    icarus wrote: »
    Sparky,

    Remember, watts is watts is watts. Watts is the measure of work done,,, and it doesn't matter if it comes from 12 volts or 120 volts. One advantage of 12 volts is that you may not have nverter losses.

    Tony


    So are you saying 12 volt draws use less wattage than 120 volts do?

    Should I be looking at buying a 12 volt small TV for the hard times?
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: New and have some questions...
    Sparky wrote: »
    I notice batteries are rated in amp hrs, so how many watts will a battery hold?

    I find it easier to do everything in watts first, and then convert to amps/volts as needed.

    Your average "deep cycle" marine battery you can buy nearly anywhere, is about 12V 100AH capacity. Total power in it is 12 x 100 = 1,200 watts
    Usable is 600watts

    But you should never use more than half the power (50% discharge), or you cause a little bit of life shorting damage to the battery. Fine to draw own deeper once in a while, but not on a regular basis. Most perfer to not go below 25% discharged, or only use 1/4 of the capacity, that makes the battery last years and years.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • Sparky
    Sparky Registered Users Posts: 23
    Re: New and have some questions...
    mike90045 wrote: »
    I find it easier to do everything in watts first, and then convert to amps/volts as needed.

    Your average "deep cycle" marine battery you can buy nearly anywhere, is about 12V 100AH capacity. Total power in it is 12 x 100 = 1,200 watts
    Usable is 600watts

    But you should never use more than half the power (50% discharge), or you cause a little bit of life shorting damage to the battery. Fine to draw own deeper once in a while, but not on a regular basis. Most perfer to not go below 25% discharged, or only use 1/4 of the capacity, that makes the battery last years and years.


    So it seems like the panels have to put out enough wattage in the first place just to supply the batteries what they need, makes sense. and from what you're saying, If i have a 400 ah battery and enough panels to charge it in 5 hrs, The battery will hold 4800 watts?

    and I would lose about half of that through the system, am I thinking right here?
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: New and have some questions...
    Sparky wrote: »
    So are you saying 12 volt draws use less wattage than 120 volts do?

    Should I be looking at buying a 12 volt small TV for the hard times?

    the direct battery loads will be less than what the inverter will show loaded with similar wattage loads because the inverter itself needs some power to operate. there still may be a problem with the tv situation as right now battery operated or 12vdc tvs are not the newer hd format so a converter is needed to utilize them. i did see an advertisement on tv at the end of it once indicating that somebody has a solution to the converter needing run from a 120vac source and allow battery power, but i haven't seen it anymore to investigate it. this converter even if one thatruns from dc or batteries will add another load into the equation making it possibly not much better than using an inverter on an hd tv straight up. we'd need more info to evaluate that scenario with a more specific comment.
    hope i didn't confuse you.
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: New and have some questions...
    Sparky wrote: »
    If i have a 400 ah battery and enough panels to charge it in 5 hrs, The battery will hold 4800 watts?

    400A x 12V = 4800W = 2400watts usable

    To replace the 2400 watts you use, in a 5 hour charging day, you will need to deliver
    576watts each hour, into the battery. 480 x 1.2 (the 1.2 is adding 20% extra panel, if you buy a 200W panel, you only get 160W out of it, in normal conditions.)

    So you need about 600W of well aimed panels, to recharge.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • Sparky
    Sparky Registered Users Posts: 23
    Re: New and have some questions...
    niel wrote: »
    the direct battery loads will be less than what the inverter will show loaded with similar wattage loads because the inverter itself needs some power to operate. there still may be a problem with the tv situation as right now battery operated or 12vdc tvs are not the newer hd format so a converter is needed to utilize them. i did see an advertisement on tv at the end of it once indicating that somebody has a solution to the converter needing run from a 120vac source and allow battery power, but i haven't seen it anymore to investigate it. this converter even if one thatruns from dc or batteries will add another load into the equation making it possibly not much better than using an inverter on an hd tv straight up. we'd need more info to evaluate that scenario with a more specific comment.
    hope i didn't confuse you.

    Is this what you're talking about? I didn't post a link as I don't know if its OK.



    This is a perfect little 12 Volt Hi-Definition LCD Flat Panel Television for anyone on the go. The screen measures 8.5" and it is extremely portable. This is one of our most portable TVs with ATSC tuners . Weighing in at less than 2.5lbs you can carry this TV just about anywhere. This 12V TV features only the new digital ATSC tuner.

    A telescoping antenna is included which makes this model even more portable. The antenna attaches to the coaxial input located on the rear of the TV.

    The A/V Out-Put jack on this TV has been changed by the manufacturer to work as A/V in-put and A/V out-put. There is a switch next to the A/V jack which switches from in-put to out-put mode. You will need a 3.5mm stereo to A/V cable to use the A/V function.
    NOTE: There is NO volume control when using the A/V jack for input. In this mode the volume is pre-set at about 1/2 gain (fairly loud).

    Wall Mounting is an option. Simply remove the factory base and hang on the wall. 2 slotted screw holes on the back of the TV make for simple mounting and virtually endless mounting options. Mounting hardware is not included.

    The portability of this small 12 Volt LCD TV is only limited by the length of your 12 volt power cord.

    What's In The Box
    8.5" Color Wide Screen TFT LCD (16:9)
    12V Power Cord
    110V Power Cord
    Remote Control
    2(two) "AAA" Batteries
    Owners Instruction Manual
    Warranty Registration Card
    Specifications
    Meets ATSC Digital TV Standard
    Channel Auto Scan, Close Caption and Parental Control (V-Chip)
    Multi-Language On-Screen Display (English/Spanish/French)
    High Receiving Sensitivity
    Built-In Stereo Speakers
    12-Volt (1.5 Amps) or 110V Operation
    Dimensions w/Stand 11 3/4"Wide x 8"Tall x 4"Deep
    Dimensions without/Stand 11 3/4"Wide x 7 1/4"Tall x 2 1/4"Deep
  • Sparky
    Sparky Registered Users Posts: 23
    Re: New and have some questions...
    mike90045 wrote: »
    400A x 12V = 4800W = 2400watts usable

    To replace the 2400 watts you use, in a 5 hour charging day, you will need to deliver
    576watts each hour, into the battery. 480 x 1.2 (the 1.2 is adding 20% extra panel, if you buy a 200W panel, you only get 160W out of it, in normal conditions.)

    So you need about 600W of well aimed panels, to recharge.


    Ok, now I see......looks like you need to overkill a lot just to be safe.
    Like you said, I need to start off getting my watts first, then size to fit.

    one other thing, how do you size the control charger?

    I notice they have different ratings too.
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: New and have some questions...

    could be as i lightly heard the tail end of the commercial saying it to be a solution for outages from tornadoes, if i heard rightly. that may be too small for the op if more than 1 person is to watch it, but should prove to be far more conservative on power than a 150w flat screen. my guess would be for that small tv to drain less than 10% (and may even be 5%) of the main big tv.
  • Sparky
    Sparky Registered Users Posts: 23
    Re: New and have some questions...
    niel wrote: »
    could be as i lightly heard the tail end of the commercial saying it to be a solution for outages from tornadoes, if i heard rightly. that may be too small for the op if more than 1 person is to watch it, but should prove to be far more conservative on power than a 150w flat screen. my guess would be for that small tv to drain less than 10% (and may even be 5%) of the main big tv.

    Believe me, the last time we had a outage....we were watching a 2.5 inch tv for 4 days. heck, this thing is huge compared to that. So what I've learned here is to keep the wattage down to save from having so many panels. also this tv is just for the hard times with nothing...

    I just need to get the math part right. then size my needs to that.

    Thanks again..
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: New and have some questions...

    sparky,
    no problem as keeping power usage down helps costs and may elongate the times you can operate without the grid through this conservation.
  • Kamala
    Kamala Solar Expert Posts: 452 ✭✭
    Re: New and have some questions...

    Regarding coffee...

    In an outage... DO NOT USE ELECTRICITY TO MAKE COFFEE...

    My wife and I need coffee every morning. At our camper I put water on the propane stove top and grind beans in a miniature German hand grinder that my wife's parents got as a wedding present in 1952. I bought a gold screen filter that fits into a plastic funnel and place that combination into the throat of an insulated craffe. I dump the ground coffee into the filter and pour the heated water over the grounds. It is certainly not "automatic" but is drip brewed (I abhor percolated.) It takes about five minutes to keep topping off the filter and is well worth it.

    No matter how much you love coffee, don't depend on electricity to make it.

    K
  • Sparky
    Sparky Registered Users Posts: 23
    Re: New and have some questions...
    Kamala wrote: »
    Regarding coffee...

    In an outage... DO NOT USE ELECTRICITY TO MAKE COFFEE...

    My wife and I need coffee every morning. At our camper I put water on the propane stove top and grind beans in a miniature German hand grinder that my wife's parents got as a wedding present in 1952. I bought a gold screen filter that fits into a plastic funnel and place that combination into the throat of an insulated craffe. I dump the ground coffee into the filter and pour the heated water over the grounds. It is certainly not "automatic" but is drip brewed (I abhor percolated.) It takes about five minutes to keep topping off the filter and is well worth it.

    No matter how much you love coffee, don't depend on electricity to make it.

    K


    Man, you're right about that. I don't need to waste power on coffee.

    Going a different route now....;)
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: New and have some questions...

    Coleman makes a great stove top automatic drip coffee maker,,, MR coffee style. works great either on a camp stove or a conventional gas range.

    T