Newby system for Hawaii

sodamo

Re: Newby system for Hawaii

My apologies for taking time to reply - several issues at work. My additional apologies for a long post.

Yes Niel, I did get the 3/0 wire. Don't recall if it was a hassle or the price as that was somewhat the "day from **ll" as it was. But it is installed.

As for my panel / controller situation - I was a bit bummed to realize I had no more growth capacity with the MPPT500. Being as the ProSine 3.0 is strictly 12v, I'm locked into 12v battery system unless I changed out the inverter/charger, which would mean I could go back to the ProStar30.
I decided to bite the budget bullet and just upgrade to the Outback MX60. One of the reasoning factors, this will be the charge controller in the main house system, so I achieve a bit of commonality. The newer product discussed by boB and Robin sounds really exciting, but apparently would be available in my timeframe Need a Hawaii test site?

So I bought myself an MX60, and it arrived last Wed - which just happened to be the day, my wife goes to start the generator to use the washing machine and it doesn't start. The generator has been working pretty hard this past month of less than sunny days, so I figure, no problem, just the perfect time to change the oil, new spark plug - make it happy. Nope, still won't start. So now it sits since Thurs PM in a local repair shop and I hope it's fixed very very soon. I have a 2nd gen, a small 2K Coleman that I use to run tools etc at the house building site. It is to small too be of much value on our system, but it helps a bit- nothing has spoiled and the beer is still drinkable . I've bought a used Honda 3500 for backup, but it won't be here until Friday.

This weekend (Fri-Sun) I rebuild my PV rack mount, add the 2 Kyocera panels and installed the new MX60 - not a simple replacement/hookup as I relocated it so I can read the display. After reading, several times, the discussion on how to best hook up the panels, and the small hit on the amp difference in panels, I decided to just leave the original 4 panels wired as they were (48v) and add in the 2 Kyocera for a 72v array. Probably a good thing as it started raining again just as I was closing things up. I personally don't like fiddling with electricity in the rain. When I flipped the switch, the MX came on and even in the overcast, I was seeing better numbers than I'd seen in days. I'm looking forward to seeing what is produced on a sunny day. That won't be today however as it is again rainy and overcast. So far 9.1 amps has been my highest reading, but it's only 9:45Am so I'm hopeful.

My batteries (12 Exide 12v @ 105ah) were probably on their last legs as it was. Given the no sun, no genset situation, they dipped down to 10v. Even before, the hydrometer readings were in the red. Anybody offer any hope for these batteries? any hope to reclaim them?

Replacing the batteries was next on my list, assuming they were already dying from an improper early life. If you read earlier in the thread, Niel warned the generator would be primary to charge. Not to point fingers, but the 1st 2 months in use, the generator was run less than 6 hours - on the advice of well meaning neighbors who hadn't the benefit of this discussion.  So with my new panel (742watt) configuration and new MX60, I'm back to looking at battery bank sizing. I've figured my daily wattage use at 1868. The washing machine will always have the generator running when in use. If I use the 5% min rule, then I could size the bank around 860ah. Would appreciate any comments here. Also would there be an advantage in going to 6v vs 12v batteries? After reading comments in another thread, I'm curious as to the cost benefit of AGM's, although I haven't priced them.

Niel, you made reference to future - given the changes discussed above, once the battey issue is resolved I only forsee one major change, the possible addition of a wind generator. Many of my neighbors use the AirX 400watt and like it. I'd like to install this before the next winter season.

I appreciate all the comments and help here. Hopefully, I've learned a lot.

David

niel

Re: Newby system for Hawaii

hey if i made some mistakes(and i make them) i am sorry. don't know what i was thinking as that was a common gage. i must've been thinking #3. anyway i'm glad you are getting things together out there and i hope with 72volts of vmp that you don't accidentally go over the mx60's max voltage. should be ok as you guys don't exactly get cold out there.
on the subject of a wind generator, that does compliment a solar system. on the airx some like them and others hate them. i do know if the wind gusts exceed i believe it's 28mph that it will stop generating for a time. wind is never uniform so it seems you can't count on the higher generation figures on the airx. does anybody use anything else or bigger out there with success? bergey makes a nice 1kw. it does cost more and has a bigger footprint with the rotor. just don't limit yourself with the airx as i talked with somebody who has one that it's still working and he indicated he'd like to get rid of it as it cuts out on gusts and winds up averaging 4amps of production. haven't talked to him in about a year now so i don't know if he got rid of it or not.
all in all i hope the direction your system is going you feel is a good one and, though i goof sometimes, i do wish that same direction for you and if i helped i'm glad.

System2

Re: Newby system for Hawaii

i have an airx and like it for what it does. i have the 24 volt version and have it
wired into 2 golf cart batteries. i didn't get it to tie into a main solar system but
have it in case we lose power i can run some 12v lights or jump start the generator
if need be. i like the big wind generators, but they cost big bucks and for the money
i would rather have more solar panels 8-)

just my 2.37495 cents worth (adjusted for inflation)

brad

sodamo

Re: Newby system for Hawaii

Niel - no sweat on the wire size - isn't bigger supposed to be better

The AirX wind generator seems to be favorable in our environment, it's the one most of the neighbors have. There is one larger machine down the road, but it is larger than I want. Two of the neighbors are actually running 2 AirX. I doubt my 72 volt array will see operation on the cooler side of 60 degree temps. Should I suspect a cold snap, I'll turn off the system until 7AM

Pioneer - Are you feeding your 24 volt AirX into 12 volt battery bank? I'd be interested in more details, please.

I have to say, that my 3rd day into MX60 is awesome. Still a cloudy day, but system generated 2.8Kw. Given that my calculated daily usage is 1.7Kw, I think I'm looking pretty good. At one point, the MX60 was outputting 39.3 amps. I did breakdown and rental a small (EB3000c) Honda generator. Ran it 4 hours yesterday which got the battery bank back up to 12.5v when I shut it off. Just ran the refer, water pump, and occaisional light last night and they were still at 12.3v this AM. Ran it another 3 hours while wife did the laundry this AM and by the time she was done 10AM, MX60 was indicating FLOAT. Perhaps my battery bank isn't quite dead? I made a few random hydrometer readings - all still in red. Anyway, at $50/day, I decided to take the generator back and see if we survive til Friday, when either our broken generator will be back or the replacement arrives. Will be interesting especially if the sun shines.
Looks like I have another piece of equimpent to try to recoup $ - the Trimetric, as I get better info from the MX60.

Anyone any suggestions on my batteries?

David

System2

Re: Newby system for Hawaii

hi
i'm running my airx 24 into two 12 volt batteries wired as 24 with
an old knife switch to separate them into 12's. it's a pretty simple
setup. i built a hinged battery box out of plywood with venting that
sits next to my shop outside and is only a couple of feet from the
airx. i have a fat fuse from a car amp in the box to protect against
lightning and a ground rod as well. since the airx has an internal
electronic regulator you pretty much forget it's there.

brad

niel

Re: Newby system for Hawaii

as far as your batteries go you gave them a 100% dod discharge. it is not a good thing to have happen and if it don't kill them it'll shorten up the lifespan some the degree of which is unknown. use them until you can't anymore, but have an eye on how well it holds its voltage for a given dod%.

sodamo

Re: Newby system for Hawaii

Before the batteries go completely dead on me, I want to develop a reasonable replacement plan. Not sure what I have available locally (meaning in available stock). I'd like to keep the cost down to something reason - meaning I'm not about to buy a bank of Rolls 4ks25's to match the house bank. The new bank will still be 12 volt as dictatated by my inverter.

What is the benefit of going to 2 @6v vs 1 @12v? Did I read somewhere that the AGM batteries charge more efficiently than the standard flooded batteries.

Any suggestions as to size, type, etc appreciated.

David

niel

Re: Newby system for Hawaii

to determine the capacity of your batteries can be dictated by both the load requirements and the charging available. it's simple to say that one 100amphr battery isn't going to do well with a 2kw inverter. further on that line is that a 1amp pv isn't going to do well charging that battery. discharge rates do best within the same parameters of charging rates being typically between 5 and 10% of battery capacity, but are slightly more foregiving than charging rates so it's not uncommon to draw more or less than the 5-10% range with gels as a possible negative exception on high %s. if you want our opinions on specific examples give us a scenario.
many have said you can get more from 6v batteries, but what difference does that make when they charge you more for them and you then have to intertie more with heavy wires or busses? i see no gain or advantage to it.
agms are very good batteries as i think crewzer and brock now agree with me from first hand experience. they do cost more than standards though. because they are sealed the smaller ones can be ups shipped. for the really big ones (4d, 8d)they need special shipping and handling like many other batteries that size. as to efficiency i guess they would be because they can hold a charge longer than standards. i don't know about charging faster (more efficiently)as i didn't pay that close of attention(comparing standard to agm), but brock and crewzer may feel they do. we all came off of standard lead acid batteries that went bad on us and replaced them with agms.. bad lead acids to good agms is quite a leap. gassing is less of a problem too with the agms being sealed. overcharging them will be the same as standards and will cause gas to escape. you can't rewater an agm if abused.

sodamo

Re: Newby system for Hawaii

Well, after making some phone calls and not being really pleased with the results, I made my choice, mostly on budget. I was somewhat surprised that the AGM are not commonly available here - special order, and that means $$$. My budget compromise was to get locally available Interstate U2200. These are 6 volt, 225ah flooded @ $79 each. I stayed witht the 12 battery bank configuration which gives me 1350 ah. Miscommunication with the dealer as over phone he told me it was a 220ah battery. This puts me about 3% with my solar panels, but the generator will be run regularly for the washing machine and if I need to top them off. The only other system change anticipated will be a wind generator - still looking at the 400watt AirX and I'd like to get that installed by end of summer. I've computered my daily useage at 1.7 kw and according to my MX60 log have generated an average of 1.57kwhr/day since installed - and that has included some pretty crappy days. Maybe in another 5+ years the replacements can be something more exotic.

By the time I got everything reinstalled in the new batery box yesterday, it was raining cats and dogs. According to the MX60, we only got about .1kwhr the rest of the day. I had planned to get hydrometer readings, but chickened out with the rain. I did get them this AM and was thrilled to see every cell in the GREEN - something I'd never seen in the old bank. I don't suspect they have been charged much as it was overcast and raining by the time I finished and again only .1kwhr showing for the day on the MX60.

This has been (and continues to be) a very interesting learning experience.

I am quite grateful from all the help from this forum.

David

System2

Re: Newby system for Hawaii

David,

Just to let you know I am running at 3.5% charge rate. Seems to be doing ok. And I have to bring the batteries up to 15.5 volts to reach absorb. I tried to find the charge settings for your batteries and all I could find was on interstate's facts page http://www.ibsa.com/www_2001/content/faqs/tech_talk/maintenance/faq_tech_maint.htm. Don't seem like they are too worried about it. They say to slow charge just get it done in about 10 hours. see below. I bet you have pretty good luck.


What's the best way to charge deep cycle batteries? The maximum charger rate in amps should be 20% of the amp hour rating of the battery.

Normally, deep cycle batteries do not require special charging procedures. However, we recommended that you use a charger designed specifically for deep cycle batteries. It is best to slow charge all batteries, especially deep cycle. The 20% rule should be used when charging a deep cycle battery. That means to choose a charger where the maximum current (in amps) is less than 20% of the Ah rating. For example, an Interstate SRM-27 is rated at approximately 100 Ah, so a 20-amp charger should be the maximum. Also, it is best to use a charger that is adequate to recharge the battery within 10-12 hours (see next question).

niel

Re: Newby system for Hawaii

jon,
even if a battery manufacturer says you can use a 20% rate i would not do it and i don't recommend it for anybody else. this is a c5 charge rate and would boil the crap out of the batteries if it doesn't warp the plates at some point down the road too. i don't recommend over about 12-13% as a normal charge percentage even if they say it can take it. if it is an emergency situation ok do it, but not normally. i also believe the charge cycles will be lower over the lifespan of the battery with fast charging. yes i am saying that batteries that are allowed to charge to full capacity at the 5% rate will outlast the same batteries charged at a 10% rate to full charge. won't be vastly different though.

System2

Re: Newby system for Hawaii

I agree it does seem to be high to me as well. I was meaning to point out they say to slow charge over 10 to 12 hours, it just happened to have the 20% max rate in the quote. I wish my system was closer to the 5% rate but no need for more because it would be wasted power. If my 1170 ah battery bank can float for two to three hours a day at 3.5% charge rate I would think 5% would be enough. If I used more power during the day I could see going 10% but normally there is no one here while the sun is up. I need to find some more day time loads for my system.

niel

Re: Newby system for Hawaii

a 10hr charge is a c10 rate and equates to 10% so maybe they goofed and did a misprint. aww what do they care for they will get people to buy more batteries sooner. :x when they fail they might buy from another company so it could backfire. :-P :-)

sodamo

Re: Newby system for Hawaii

Jon - you got me to thinking about use. I went to my daily "guess" usage chart and tried to determine day vs night use and it appears 40-45% of my useage is during sunlight hours.

I'd really like to figure out my true usaege. How can I do that? Seems I should get that from my Trimetric 2020, but I don't. It always says batteries are 100% and the Cumulative Ah number doesn't make sense. I've done the programming to enter bank size, done resets, etc. Is it possible my helpful neighbor somehow hooked it up partially wrong? It does give me volt and ah readings consistent with my MX60, but the useage readings just don't seem right, but I could be missing something.

After getting the new battery bank installed, I ran the generator until the Prosine was indicating Float, it was reading a high of 14.3 prior to taht - I've never seen anything close to 15. Not sure how long it was in that state, maybe 15-30 minutes before I shut it down. Is this a reasonable way to determine if I'm near a full charge? If not, how do I? Yesterday, PV charge only, the Trimetric and MX60 were both showing 13.4 volts periodically - I never saw that high with the old batteries just from the PV. I'm pretty encouraged as it wasn't a particularly great sun day and only got 1.1 kwhrs. With normal useage, the volts go down to 12.3-12.4 and are that level at sunrise.

David

System2

Re: Newby system for Hawaii

I found my usage by using a kill a watt meter, I hooked it to every thing and let it run for a few days so to get a good reading. And got a on the spot wattage and amp reading so I can guess better.

About a week ago I installed a 120 volt wall plug on my Prosine Inverter and pluged the Kill a Watt meter into it then on to the breaker box. I have found some pretty strange readings compairing it to my MX60 log. I am about to not believe Xantrex specs are correct. They claim the Prosine uses 25 watts. If this is true then my batteries has a 32% chargeing loss. Which could be true because I do have to take them to such a high voltage for absorb. I have tried the 14.4 bulk and absorb like others but can't get any bubbles. Have you found what to charge those interstate batteries at? I have read around and seems that 14.4 is what most everyone is using on them. One more thing, you might need to wait about a months usage before your new batteries will charge or discharge correctly.

sodamo

Re: Newby system for Hawai i- Improvements

OK, I'm pleased with the performance of my changes so far:
Recap of system:
PVs - 4 Sharp 123w panels and 2 Kyocera KC125w - wired in series 72 volt
Outback MX60 Charge Controller with Temp
TriMetric 2020 (which still doesn't give correct readings on load/usage)
ProSine 3.0 12v Inverter/charger
12 - Interstate U2200 6volt batteries wired for 12 volt bank. 1350Ah
Backup - Honda EU3000si Used when running washing machine and/or the really cloudy days.

Over last 43 days, I've averaged 1.61 kwhr production or 86% of my computed daily requirement (1868).

I have an AirX 400watt 12volt wind generator on order and intend to install on a rooftop mast (approx 28ft above ground). I figure this is maybe a 90% solution, but I'd have to erect a tower way too far to be any better. Watching the wind patterns, the only area that has interference is probably my least likely wind direction. My predominant winds will be uninhibited.

I would like input as to integrating the AirX into my system. In talking with a couple of my neighbors, it doesn't appear they can separate (as in tracking) wind contribution vs sun contribution. Am I correct in that I cannot connect the AirX to the MX60? It would appear, if my Trimetric read correctly, I could subtract my MX60 amps from Trimetric reading to determine wind amps. Anybody recommend a good setup? Any other thoughts or ideas?

I am also custom building the mast. Any suggestions on obtaining vibration reducting/rubber mounts (need 4 that clamp around the pipe)?

Thanks
David

Brianellul

Re: Newby system for Hawaii

Hi

Here is a link to the rubber mounts. I've installed mine without them and I'll have to take it down and use these mounts because when the AIR-X auto brakes (due to high wind), it vibrates the pole!

http://www.windenergy.com/AIR_Roof_Mount_Manual.pdf

Regards
Brian

BB.

Re: Newby system for Hawaii

I was about to reply about the same thing--noise from your generator getting into your home.

I would suggest you not attach to your home at all but use a separate pole/tower. Even the guy wires, if attached to the house can transmit a lot of noise (or even "sing" in high winds). If it must be on the house, keep the mounts/wires away from sleeping areas--if possible.

No direct experience with wind generators, just life-experiences.

-Bill

niel

Re: Newby system for Hawaii

to answer your other concern the airx has it's own regulator in it so there will not be a connection to the input of your mx60. it will be connected straight to your battery system and if you wish you could use the trimetric to measure the airx output if you get it to work the way you want it to.
as to roof mounting this it could be too noisy and difficult for you. do you know of a neighbor that did it this way? if you do find out all he did and ask if there's noise. the better way would be a ground mounted telescoping mast that can be guyed. there are more expensive types that can crankup and have no guy wires, but you'll really pay for something that nice. use caution in mounting this as what goes up can come down the wrong way or the hard way.

sodamo

Re: Newby system for Hawaii

Thanks guys

I ordered 2 sets of the rubber mounts from our hosts. Strangely, it was cheaper to buy the set with roof seal than without, more puzzling when I saw what the price was simply for the roof seal. I needed 2 sets as my custom mast will have 2 90 elbows under the roofline as it comes down, then under my 4x12 ridgebeam and I'd prefer 4 supports as there are no guy wires. Mast will be 8 ft above roof.

As far as I know, none of the immediate neighbors have a roof mount, although one does have his less than a foot from an outbuilding. My house is located near the top of my property. By the time I could locate a mast in the closest, most open area I'd be 150 ft away and about 25 feet lower elevation. Even with 2 kits, my costs will be significantly lower than a guyed mast.

Not only am I installing this to "complete" this system, but I'm hoping it will prove to be a cost effective modification to my larger system.

No danger of any expensive, fancy options finding a home here Niel.

David

sodamo

Re: Newby system for Hawaii

OK, been a LONG time since May, but today, we finally got the AirX installed  :-D  Been too busy building the new house to take the time.

After reading all the scary stuff, here and elsewhere about vibration and noise, I decided not to do the roof mount. As I didn't have a good location as detailed above, so I decided to do a mast (31 ft), but use two sets of the rubber mounts to attach custom supports to the house. While I can feel some vibration on the mast itself, nothing apparently transfers to structure.

I've posted pics of the setup/installation http://travel.webshots.com/album/198517619KSTabh?start=72

I've no idea what to expect for performance. I still need a solution that would allow me to track total amphours produced by the AirX. I think if I could average 50% of what my PV's produce, I'd be happy. This is my last planned, major upgrade to this system.

David

System2

Re: Newby system for Hawaii

:-) Great pictures! Was thinking how lucky you are to live where you can have your washer and all outside and not have it freeze up and burst in cold weather and not having to almost stand up your PV's so the snow can hopefully slide off!

I do have a couple of questions about your battery setup though.

1) Am I seeing right, that both the Positive and Negative cables are connected at the same end of the battery bank? If so, you should check into the problems this will lead to. With a sensitive DVM, you will see that the battery closest to these connections will, during heavy charge especially, be subjected to higher voltage than the battery on the far end, thus receive a larger charge. Likewise, especially during heavy discharge, the opposite will be true. This will NOT be good for your battery bank, over working one end of the bank, while the other end gets off easy.
Perhaps I'm not seeing your picture properly, but if I am, it's a heads up before you run into problems.
2) What is the brownish looking patches around the battery terminals? My computer does not show the picture well enough to see if it's corrosion, or a type of grease etc to prevent corrosion.

All in all, a great overall project and I'm happy for you. Well Done!
Cheers
Wayne

mike95490

Re: Newby system for Hawaii

sodamo wrote:

I've posted pics of the setup/installation http://travel.webshots.com/album/198517619KSTabh?start=72

I've no idea what to expect for performance. I still need a solution that would allow me to track total amphours produced by the AirX. I think if I could average 50% of what my PV's produce, I'd be happy. This is my last planned, major upgrade to this system.

David

Great shots. Does the AirX have a voltage adjustment screw like the 403 had ? you could crank that up to 15 or 16 volts (or set it to a different battery type setting to get max voltage out of it.) and run that into a seperate charge controller that has total output metering. Also, the Electric Car groups, have a electronic "fuel gauge" that mesasures amps in, vs amps out, and they may have a 12V model (most EV's are 90+ volts)
You could also measure state of charge at night, and see what has changed in the AM, before the PV's kick in.
I woudl also look into makeing a Turntable for your PV's and manually track the sun, cold give you another 20% charge boost.
re your Honda, when running it, do you have a battery charger that can top off your batteries (I'm not sure if your outback/prosine does that or not)