Got rid of my lead acid batteries

geosierranevada

After using lead acid batteries for 20 years ( 3 sets ) I went with EG4-lifep04 batteries. I am amazed how well they are doing.
My 1st set of lead acid were Rolls, lasted 12 years. 2nd set were Trojan, lasted 4 years. 3rd was a forklift battery and lasted 4 years.
I maintained the lead acid batteries, distilled water, monitored temps & spec gravity often. I am still using a trace sw4024 and 3
Flexmax 80 charge controller's. 
We run a 2700 SQ ft house 20 miles from the grid. It is nice to get up in the morning & brew Mr coffee 14 cups and have state of charge 
at 70% after brewing coffee.      Have a nice day.    George

BB.

Sounds great...

Just out of curiosity, what was the voltage and AH ratings (24 volts @ 200 AH?) for the Lithium and the old FLA batteries?

What is your daily usage (i.e., 25% discharge for FLA, 50% discharge for Lithium, etc.)?

How often do you have to fire up the genset for FLA vs Lithium (if at all)?

Trying to get some "real numbers" for FLA vs Lithium for "happy life"...

-Bill

geosierranevada

Bill, 
The forklift batteries were 1379 ah at 20 hour rate (over rated by GB Battery), the gen set ran about 100 hrs in the first 3 years

With the fklift batts then cells started going and gen was running 2 to 4 hrs Dailey. It took 3 months getting a warranty replacement
Of one cell. And a month later another cell died and I had enough.
I kept the fla batts at 40% dod with gen auto start. The lifep0's have gotten no lower then 60% dod. 330 lbs vs 1800 lbs worth of batts.
Or $5000.00 lifep04 with rack vs $4000.00 forklift batts. Being 73 years old and old fashioned, it was hard going the lifep0 route, but 
I am glad I did it. - George

BB.

Sounds like a winning solution there George!

-Bill

Photowhit

FWIW - I'm 11 years in on my GB forklift battery.  No generator ever...

I'd like to know the sizes of the Lithium battery as well,

geosierranevada said:

 330 lbs vs 1800 lbs worth of batts.
....Or $5000.00 lifep04 

This looks like a pretty undersized bank... Replacing my 1100 pound, 660 ah 24 volt battery with a LiFPo4 was around $10K last I looked and my forklift is still around $2700 delivered (so the forklift battery sounds about right)

BB.

From George's Signature:

3x EG4 Lifep04 200 amphr batteries (I assume 24 volt each)

-Bill

geosierranevada

Photowhit

I have seen over the years that you have not needed a generator and it amazes me. I purchased 3 of the 24 volt EG4 200 ah

batteries thinking that if needed I would order more. So far not needed. We run a full size refrigerator, chest freezer, big screen tv,
Desktop computer, house water booster pump, microwave and a few more low consuming items. Generator has not run since

Removal of forklift batteries. - George

Horsefly

Photowhit said:

FWIW - I'm 11 years in on my GB forklift battery.  No generator ever...

I'd like to know the sizes of the Lithium battery as well,

geosierranevada said:

 330 lbs vs 1800 lbs worth of batts.
....Or $5000.00 lifep04 

This looks like a pretty undersized bank... Replacing my 1100 pound, 660 ah 24 volt battery with a LiFPo4 was around $10K last I looked and my forklift is still around $2700 delivered (so the forklift battery sounds about right)

Hey @Photowhit - The batteries that George got are currently $1500 at Signature Solar. So that's $4500 (before shipping) for 200Ah at 24V.  LiFePO4 battery prices are not as high as they were in the early days, so you may have some old pricing info. Although they have been coming down some, now that lots of the electric car companies are looking at LiFePO4 it may get more expensive. Of course, the inflation and supply chain problems will have pressure on the prices for a while.

Assuming you don't normally take your 660Ah forklift battery much below 50%, you've really got less than 400Ah of usable capacity. Since you can cycle LiFePO4 pretty safely through 80% of is capacity, you don't need as much. Oh, and each of the rack-mounted 24V EG4's weigh a bit over 100 lbs, so there's that.

Photowhit

Horsefly said;

Assuming you don't normally take your 660Ah forklift battery much below 50%, you've really got less than 400Ah of usable capacity. Since you can cycle LiFePO4 pretty safely through 80% of is capacity, you don't need as much. Oh, and each of the rack-mounted 24V EG4's weigh a bit over 100 lbs, so there's that.

Properly designed, you don't need to go down below 50% very often, but forklift batteries can and do go down to 20% SOC regularly. Even daily and are warrantied for 5 years or more doing this in factories. The added capacity of lithium isn't much as you would want to protect from total discharge with lithium. 

So he replace 1100 amp hour capacity with 600 amp hour capacity(less if unwilling to discharge to zero). It's the comparison I wanted. I don't want a generator...

I do think that lithium have a greater advantage in charging do to their low resistance. I'm sure there is a great advantage charging in cloudy weather minimal incoming current. Also an advantage of being able to add new to old. And the disadvantage of having to warm them in cold weather or bring inside heated area.

FWIW - I have already applied a more correct ah capacity to my GB battery they rate as 800 ah.

Horsefly

@Photowhit - Thanks for that explanation. I do recall now that forklift batteries can go lower than 50% without a sweat.

checkthisout

Running fla here.

Regular fla batteries are inferior to lithium in every.

The only reason we aren't all running lithium is simply due to cost. 

Wheelman55

Excellent pricing on these batteries. They are approximately one third the price per amp hour vs what I paid for my Discover 48 volt batts. 

Good find!

Dave Angelini

Alot of variables are in any battery choice. The math has to be right to start.  48vdc is not the same capacity as an equal amount of AH @ 24vdc.  Any warranty is only as good as the company and it's long history of support. Closing the loop with charge and discharge is often a very rare thing with LFP.

Photowhit

checkthisout said:

Running fla here.

Regular fla batteries are inferior to lithium in every.

The only reason we aren't all running lithium is simply due to cost. 

Cost, of course is something to consider! So not inferior in that respect.
-To date lithium aren't recycled! Though they are just now starting to deal with this in the US.
-To date, lithium must be heated or brought inside in freezing temperatures.

If I will admit to lithium being better in charging characteristics, I'll ask others to admit to the failings of lithium in at least these aspects.

To be honest, a lithium's battery being able to instantly discharge at a high rate, is also something to consider. Not sure a mistake that would weld metal would be as difficult to stop with lead acid.  When I switch, hopefully to a solid state lithium battery, The first thing I do will be to put a fuse/breaker on the positive terminal.

FWIW - My lead acid flooded batteries have lived happily outside for 20+ years, I went for a weeks vacation at Christmas a couple years ago, and ended having to stay for 3 months (mom broke a vertebra in her back) I don't heat my home when I'm gone, I primarily heat with wood. When I came home, I started a fire in the wood stove and took a couple hot pockets out of the microwave and tossed into the microwave. I could NOT do this with a lithium storage system. When I switch, unless to a solidstate battery, I'll have to rewire my system and bring some of it inside, or create a heated room/power center for them. I think the charging characteristics would be enough to run a fridge and a minimal heater for the battery storage when I'm gone even if there are several days of overcast skies.

Lets admit Lithium has more failing than cost.

littleharbor2

Cost is comparable if you build the pack yourself. I built a 460 ah. @24 volts  using 16 Eve 230ah cells  an active balancer and 250 amp BMS for under $2,000

geosierranevada

Photowhit,
My egr batteries come with breakers installed and the BMS does work to shut them down ( been testing them ).
Also I will be installing terrarium heaters to the outside of the rack, they are thermostatic controlled. Without the heaters

If it got below 32° in my battery box, the bms will not let the batteries receive a charge but they will still discharge.
Dave,
GB forklift battery company did not treat me very well on their warranty. 7 year warranty and played heck with getting
1 cell replaced after less the 4 years. 
So far I am very pleased with the batteries. - George

mahendra

How are these eg4 working for you .
 I am having a bit of a nightmare with what is apparently a bad batch from late last year production .
As for their warranty its next to none i am presently trouble shooting with them bit it seem that all other equipment are problematic in their opinion. 
The batteries did not work well with a Xantrex 4548. And its not working well with a new outback radian.
Both are bust led at the moment.
Something to do with the bms.
Signature solar tech and customer support is really crappy as well.
They have a thing or two to learn from outback and midnite
Check DIY solar forum

mahendra

https://diysolarforum.com/threads/schneider-xw-pro-6848-not-powering-up-with-eg4-lithium-battery.33250/page-49#post-490011

AGB

littleharbor2 said:

Cost is comparable if you build the pack yourself. I built a 460 ah. @24 volts  using 16 Eve 230ah cells  an active balancer and 250 amp BMS for under $2,000

Where did you source your BMS from? I am interested in active balancing.

littleharbor2

AGB said:

littleharbor2 said:

Cost is comparable if you build the pack yourself. I built a 460 ah. @24 volts  using 16 Eve 230ah cells  an active balancer and 250 amp BMS for under $2,000

Where did you source your BMS from? I am interested in active balancing.

It is a Daly unit. Yes, I know some are not fans. Mine's the basic version without bluetooth or other options I wanted the high amp capability. Apparently It's working fine. I have no complaints thus far.   BTW I ordered it on Amazon.

geosierranevada

mahendra said:

How are these eg4 working for you .
 I am having a bit of a nightmare with what is apparently a bad batch from late last year production .
As for their warranty its next to none i am presently trouble shooting with them bit it seem that all other equipment are problematic in their opinion. 
The batteries did not work well with a Xantrex 4548. And its not working well with a new outback radian.
Both are bust led at the moment.
Something to do with the bms.
Signature solar tech and customer support is really crappy as well.
They have a thing or two to learn from outback and midnite
Check DIY solar forum

Mahendra

They are still working great. I have ordered an inrush clamp meter to do further testing and will keep you informed. Sorry to see you are having bad luck with Signature Solar. 
George

AGB

littleharbor2 said:

AGB said:

littleharbor2 said:

Cost is comparable if you build the pack yourself. I built a 460 ah. @24 volts  using 16 Eve 230ah cells  an active balancer and 250 amp BMS for under $2,000

Where did you source your BMS from? I am interested in active balancing.

It is a Daly unit. Yes, I know some are not fans. Mine's the basic version without bluetooth or other options I wanted the high amp capability. Apparently It's working fine. I have no complaints thus far.   BTW I ordered it on Amazon.

Thank you 

Desert Rat

I installed my new EG4s today. They came with the optional heater/cooler. He's a cooler today:  Normal cat body temperature 99-102.5⁰, high temp here today 109⁰.

geosierranevada

Desert Rat,
That is a nice concrete box. What kind of temps when it is closed up?  Are you going to monitor batteries with a computer?
Nice looking cat.
George

Desert Rat

George,
If you hadn't already figured out, I'm the George who emailed you. I made the concrete vault for my lead acid batteries 20 years ago. I kept the LA batteries in a water bath, and the water never got above 85⁰ even when ambient temps were 110⁰. Right now it's 93⁰ in there, with today's high of 105⁰ so far. I haven't given any thought to monitoring the batteries yet. 

geosierranevada

George,
I did not realize who you were. My eg4's are in an insulated shed along with inverter & charge controller's. I purchased a cheap laptop on eBay to keep in the shed, hooked up to the batteries ports and I can monitor voltage & temps from anywhere I have internet service. 
It is tricky to get the bms program to work and may be easier with your LL batts. 
The charge range is 32° to 113° f. you may want to monitor the batts. It gets cold up here in winter so I bought 2 terrarium heaters with thermostats when it gets cold. Have a nice day.
George V