Schneider XW Pro 6848 won't qualify generator on AC2

GoldenGateGoldenGate Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭✭
During initial installation this summer, the generator qualified using firmware version 1.03.
After I began selling back to the grid, I observed peculiar inverter behavior.
(Basically, the inverter pushed too many KW to the grid, drained the battery, waited until batteries recharged, then repeated.)
This behavior was rectified with an inverter firmware upgrade to 1.04.

I did a generator test yesterday and the generator will not qualify.
Release notes for firmware version 1.04 state this is a known issue: AC2 (generator) not qualifying.

Question I've got is if there is a fix out for this yet. 
1.04 came out in December 2019. 
If I revert back to 1.03, I expect the bad inverter behavior to re-occur.

Anyone else encountered this?
Any fix?

-David



XW Pro 6048  MPPT 80/600 Gateway SCP 5.2 KW panels 12 KW battery bank 5KW generator
Foothills of the Rocky Mountains, west of Golden Colorado

Comments

  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 5,953 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think it is your configuration settings. The problems that are known relate to multi-unit xwp systems.

    Gen qualification is usually either the genset or configuration. You really have to be alot more specific in your descriptions. The effort you put into this is going to drive the accuracy of any responses. At least from me...

    You probably should be running 1.03 as the 1.04 is for Hawaii and is probably not good on grid Colorado, unless Schneider has told you to run 1.04?

    I tested 1.03 here for the 2018 field test and never had any problems offgrid. I know a bunch of folks running this on grid also.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • GoldenGateGoldenGate Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭✭
    Thanks Dave.

    I've seen the post https://forum.solar-electric.com/discussion/comment/411463#Comment_411463 where the OP moved back from 1.04 to 1.03 in a multi-unit xwp setup to get his generator to qualify.  He stated the known issue applied to multi-unit xwp setups.  But, when I check the release notes Schneider's simple statement is: AC2 (generator) not qualifying.  They don't state that it only applies to multi-unit XWP setups.   So, I'm hoping to get a resolution from Schneider on Tuesday and clear this up.   I will followup here with the results of that conversation, and pertinent details.

    I'd be happy to move back to 1.03 if I could do so without the problem I encountered with selling too much power to the grid, as described above.  I'd like to think this was caused by a configuration issue, but, when it occurred initially the recommended fix was to move to 1.04.



    XW Pro 6048  MPPT 80/600 Gateway SCP 5.2 KW panels 12 KW battery bank 5KW generator
    Foothills of the Rocky Mountains, west of Golden Colorado
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 5,953 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yes let them clear it up. I do not do much grid stuff  :)   I heard the problem with the multi xwp is that both inverters have to be on and the slave can not be in search. This got the gen to qual.  How is the smoke in the rockies? 600 feet in alot of the sierras today.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • GoldenGateGoldenGate Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭✭
    Smoke in the Colorado Rockies is pretty bad again today here, mainly coming in from California and Oregon. 

    So - Schneider support was helpful on Tuesday. 
    They confirmed that if you're not in Hawaii, you probably don't want to run 1.04. 
    Reading between the lines, I've a feeling that there could be some bugs lurking in 1.04 that don't exist in1.03.

    We rolled back to 1.03. 
    Good news is that the inverter did not get into the cycle where it sold too much to the grid, so, it was stable with the same configuration parameters I was running in 1.04.

    Bad news is that the inverter would still not qualify the generator.
    Power looked good coming from AC2, but it would not qualify.
    The green AC2 light on the inverter never blinked. 



    When I turned off the 60 amp breaker that connects the inverter to the grid, the inverter logged a F27 L1 Over Voltage fault.  It would self clear in 5 minutes.   The inverter would still not qualify the generator.  I'm speculating but it looks like there's a bug here - for instance if the inverter logs the F27 it won't qualify AC2 until AC1 is good again, but AC1 won't be good again until power is restored from the grid and then I don't need the generator ...

    Through trial and error, we did find a work around. 

    It turns out that the inverter comes up clean after rebooting it. 
    AC2 light blinks green on the inverter display panel and the generator qualifies. 
    All is good.

    Uncertain if this bug effects just the XW Pro 6848, or if it effects the XW+ too, or perhaps if it's peculiar to my install. 
    And, I'm not certain that if the power fails during an actual outage if the behavior is the same.  I'll wait and see.
    Worst case is I need to take a brief outage for the reset/reboot if I need to go to generator. 
    Better than nothing....






    XW Pro 6048  MPPT 80/600 Gateway SCP 5.2 KW panels 12 KW battery bank 5KW generator
    Foothills of the Rocky Mountains, west of Golden Colorado
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 5,953 ✭✭✭✭✭
    And most people with the grid, would have the outage, then they start the genset. 

     Having a genset auto start from a Schneider AGS is not a smart thing to do unless you have some serious medical problem. Even then I would discourage it as a generator can start a fire when people are not there to monitor.

    I also discourage it because my liability insurance is cancelled  >:) 

     XW+ and XWpro, even though they are the same physical device, are very different electrically and firmware wise. Different animals and can't be in the same cage, or system.

    We are sending the smoke east for the first time in 11 days  :)




    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • GoldenGateGoldenGate Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭✭
    Schneider has released firmware 1.09 for Gateway and XW Pro.
    They do say that they've fixed the AC2 generator qualify issue.

    I've updated gateway to 1.09
    I've updated XW Pro to 1.09

    Generator qualifies as expected on AC2, no issues.
    And, the inverter didn't raise an alert when I cut the breaker that provided power to it from the grid during the test.

    However, when connected to the grid and entering grid sell mode, the inverter entered that nasty cycle:

    Qualifies AC1
    Charges batteries
    Counts down
    Inverts to 5.6 KW max or so
    Drains the batteries
    Goes clunk
    Disconnects from AC1
    ... repeat

    I reset/reboot the inverter and grid sell mode acted as it should.

    So, looks like firmware 1.09 is good.





    XW Pro 6048  MPPT 80/600 Gateway SCP 5.2 KW panels 12 KW battery bank 5KW generator
    Foothills of the Rocky Mountains, west of Golden Colorado
  • r2d4r2d4 Registered Users Posts: 3
    GoldenGate Can you send me the .fwo file for XWPro  version 1.03?
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 5,953 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This is current. New soon I hear.  
    XW Pro 120-240V Firmware V.1.09_BN0009
    https://solar.schneider-electric.com/product/xw-pro-na-solar-hybrid-inverter/
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • r2d4r2d4 Registered Users Posts: 3
    @Dave Angelini I currently have Firmware V.1.09_BN0009, but having tons of issues. I just want to revert back to 1.03 since it was working without any problems. 
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 5,953 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2020 #11
    You should tell Schneider. As I said there is new out soon. Maybe before xmas.

    https://solar.schneider-electric.com/netsuite/

    If I find a copy I will let you know here. I doubt I have it still.   XWP works great offgrid for my clients & me BTW !
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • r2d4r2d4 Registered Users Posts: 3
    Rgr. Reported problems Tuesday still waiting for a response. Does anyone have a number for Schneider? Crossing my finger for the new version to solve current version issues. 
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 5,953 ✭✭✭✭✭
    They really will only deal with their installers by phone. Who installed your system?  You wrote here that firmware fixed your issues. I am confused by you not saying specifically what is happening. They (S) can take 3 + working days to get back and that is pre C19. They also shut down for 2 weeks as many large companies do this month. 

    The only old firmware I have is 1.09 bn9 from beta 2 years back. Maybe someone else could have it but people just do not think to save before they upgrade. This is really true for grid apps as that is what drives all of this. The version 1.09 bn9 probably works fine for all offgrid from the start.  Good Luck !
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • GoldenGateGoldenGate Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭✭
    Dave A. - being a software guy ... I just happen to have some old firmware laying around ...

    R2D4, FWIW, here's a copy of 1.03.
    If it helps you great!

    I'm running v1.09 bn9 currently, and it's been better than 1.03, though I'm noticing some strange behavior lately (no absorb charge overnight).

    -David

    XW Pro 6048  MPPT 80/600 Gateway SCP 5.2 KW panels 12 KW battery bank 5KW generator
    Foothills of the Rocky Mountains, west of Golden Colorado
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 5,953 ✭✭✭✭✭
    We don't absorb at night offgrid ;)
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • GoldenGateGoldenGate Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭✭
    It would be amusing to absorb at night off grid ...

    I run grid tied for the most part.
    I am used to seeing battery voltage looking like this:


    I assume I'm looking at the XW Pro charger running a brief absorb operation overnight (grid tied), is that correct?

    Anyway, I did a generator test.  After successful completion, and running grid tied again, the overnight graph looked like this:


    I'm thinking that the XW Pro quit running the absorb cycle overnight, even though I'm grid tied.
    Almost as if when I ended the generator test and restored power from the grid it still "thought" it was offgrid, so it shouldn't
    run absorb overnight ... I put the system into standby, then back to operating mode and now it's back to running absorb overnight
    on the grid. 





    XW Pro 6048  MPPT 80/600 Gateway SCP 5.2 KW panels 12 KW battery bank 5KW generator
    Foothills of the Rocky Mountains, west of Golden Colorado
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,298 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Only reason I can think of to cycle a battery, on grid, is to buy a new battery in 5 years, to avoid $3 of electricity in the evening.  if the price works for you - OK

    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 5,953 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2020 #18
    There are so many config settings that can do this GG,  Literally over a dozen off the top of my head. The advanced settings, new features, timer blocks, load shaves, advanced settings, grid settings, incorrect settings, events new and historical, etc.

    Schneider really does not want to be involved with config but you can hope that they will remote view your system and look at all of this for you. They really want you to call your installer, So does Outback BTW.

    Maybe the new firmware will fix your issue. I doubt it from what I see in your graphs. Something else is going on.

    Do you have a battery summary screen graph for 24 hours being offgrid. That is what your screen should look like but selling at the programmed voltage during sun hours. There are other strategies but they hurt my brain and seem to hurt batteries as Mike said.

     Below is an EQ a 3 hour absorb offgrid for you to reference. Pretty clean graph. Better go and get ready for happy hour ;)
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • GoldenGateGoldenGate Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭✭
    Thanks Mike, thanks Dave. 
    I'm looking into this now.



    XW Pro 6048  MPPT 80/600 Gateway SCP 5.2 KW panels 12 KW battery bank 5KW generator
    Foothills of the Rocky Mountains, west of Golden Colorado
  • GoldenGateGoldenGate Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭✭
    Just a brief update on the absorb issue - after my installer opened two tickets on this issue over the last three months, it appears that Schneider has no interest in fixing the problem.   Basically, it appears to boil down to the fact that if the charger is enabled on the XW Pro inverter, the inverter will run repeated absorb cycles overnight and you can't change any of the parameters that would control this behavior.  I've disabled the charger on the inverter. 

    At first, they recommended dropping the recharge voltage below the limit at which the inverter charger currently starts charging (51 V).
    But I can't do this in the local gateway interface, the insight cloud, or the SCP.  The parameter is not visible and/or not changeable in the gateway or cloud.  It does show in the SCP, but displays no value and does not allow a value to be set.  I've attached a picture of the SCP.

    At this point, I'm fairly satisfied with the quality of their hardware, but I think their software interface is broken and needs serious work.

     



    XW Pro 6048  MPPT 80/600 Gateway SCP 5.2 KW panels 12 KW battery bank 5KW generator
    Foothills of the Rocky Mountains, west of Golden Colorado
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 5,953 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What firmware are you running on both gateway and XWP. They need to be written and installed together. You should be able to lower recharge to 48V. I just did this here on my XWP. I lowered it to 44v.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • GoldenGateGoldenGate Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭✭
    At present, I'm running this software:
     
    Inverter 1.09.00bn9
    Gateway 1.10 bn 433
    SCP 2.04.00bn1
    Charger 1.09.00bn6

    I upgraded the Gateway to 1.10 at the end of February to resolve the loss of WIFI connectivity that cause the gateway to need to be rebooted daily, or whenever I wanted to access it.  Until this time, I was running the matching version of 1.09 bn 418 on the gateway.  I had installed that to correct the generator qualification issue.   Note that I identified this issue with not being able to change recharge volts when I was running 1.09 on the Gateway and the XW Pro.  

    It's good news, Dave, that you were able to change the recharge volts.  How and where did you do it? Might you send me a screen shot?  Here's a shot of my Insight Local and Insight Cloud interface where I can't see it or change it.   Where I can see it (in the SCP), it's blank and can't be changed (see screen shot above).

    Local:



    Cloud:






    XW Pro 6048  MPPT 80/600 Gateway SCP 5.2 KW panels 12 KW battery bank 5KW generator
    Foothills of the Rocky Mountains, west of Golden Colorado
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 5,953 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Firmware is old on your XWP
    XW Pro 6848 120-240V Firmware v1.11_BN0028, Note: Gateway / Insight firmware update is a prerequisite

    Firmware old on Gateway
    Firmware v1.11 BN437

    Look I am not saying that because I can make the setting that there is something wrong for you. We have very different systems offgrid and your grid tie. There are plenty of settings that interact in a grid tie that just do not come into play offgrid.

    I also am using a custom battery choice and your choice of AGM may also be an issue. You can just copy your settings for AGM and then plug them in the custom battery choice.  Custom battery opens up other choices on Gateway. This may have been your problem all along, or, it may not.

    Finally, Good Luck! You have to stop this charging behavior or you will hear the sound of AGM life being diminished! 

    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • GoldenGateGoldenGate Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭✭
    Thanks Dave.

    I'll look at upgrading the firmware to 11.  I checked out the release notes earlier, and didn't see anything that led me to believe it had a fix for my issue, so I've held off on the upgrade until now. 

    I'm aware of the Custom .vs. AGM possibility, so I've tried changing to Custom, but was still not able to adjust the recharge volts.   Good thing is that you were able to set it in the offgrid case.  It may well be an issue that only effects grid tie configurations. 

    At the moment, the workaround I've chosen is to disable the inverter charger, so it's not cooking my batteries!
    Crazy to need to so, though, when I think about it.  So much is configurable, so much works so well ... but not this.

    XW Pro 6048  MPPT 80/600 Gateway SCP 5.2 KW panels 12 KW battery bank 5KW generator
    Foothills of the Rocky Mountains, west of Golden Colorado
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 5,953 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It is very hard to set one up correctly. I really do not think it is anything other than you have made an incorrect selection somewhere. Your problem of grid cycling at night has been in 3 XW platforms since 2005. Outback has the same issue if not set-up perfectly. We have seen it here many times and it is fixable. I just do not have the time to walk thru all of this, and with 7 other folks I am working with now, I gotta go !
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

Sign In or Register to comment.