Schneider XW Pro 6848 won't qualify generator on AC2

GoldenGate

During initial installation this summer, the generator qualified using firmware version 1.03.

After I began selling back to the grid, I observed peculiar inverter behavior.

(Basically, the inverter pushed too many KW to the grid, drained the battery, waited until batteries recharged, then repeated.)

This behavior was rectified with an inverter firmware upgrade to 1.04.

I did a generator test yesterday and the generator will not qualify.

Release notes for firmware version 1.04 state this is a known issue: AC2 (generator) not qualifying.

Question I've got is if there is a fix out for this yet. 

1.04 came out in December 2019. 

If I revert back to 1.03, I expect the bad inverter behavior to re-occur.

Anyone else encountered this?

Any fix?

-David

Dave Angelini

I think it is your configuration settings. The problems that are known relate to multi-unit xwp systems.

Gen qualification is usually either the genset or configuration. You really have to be alot more specific in your descriptions. The effort you put into this is going to drive the accuracy of any responses. At least from me...

You probably should be running 1.03 as the 1.04 is for Hawaii and is probably not good on grid Colorado, unless Schneider has told you to run 1.04?

I tested 1.03 here for the 2018 field test and never had any problems offgrid. I know a bunch of folks running this on grid also.

GoldenGate

Thanks Dave.

I've seen the post https://forum.solar-electric.com/discussion/comment/411463#Comment_411463 where the OP moved back from 1.04 to 1.03 in a multi-unit xwp setup to get his generator to qualify.  He stated the known issue applied to multi-unit xwp setups.  But, when I check the release notes Schneider's simple statement is: AC2 (generator) not qualifying.  They don't state that it only applies to multi-unit XWP setups.   So, I'm hoping to get a resolution from Schneider on Tuesday and clear this up.   I will followup here with the results of that conversation, and pertinent details.

I'd be happy to move back to 1.03 if I could do so without the problem I encountered with selling too much power to the grid, as described above.  I'd like to think this was caused by a configuration issue, but, when it occurred initially the recommended fix was to move to 1.04.

Dave Angelini

Yes let them clear it up. I do not do much grid stuff     I heard the problem with the multi xwp is that both inverters have to be on and the slave can not be in search. This got the gen to qual.  How is the smoke in the rockies? 600 feet in alot of the sierras today.

GoldenGate

Smoke in the Colorado Rockies is pretty bad again today here, mainly coming in from California and Oregon. 

So - Schneider support was helpful on Tuesday. 

They confirmed that if you're not in Hawaii, you probably don't want to run 1.04. 

Reading between the lines, I've a feeling that there could be some bugs lurking in 1.04 that don't exist in1.03.

We rolled back to 1.03. 

Good news is that the inverter did not get into the cycle where it sold too much to the grid, so, it was stable with the same configuration parameters I was running in 1.04.

Bad news is that the inverter would still not qualify the generator.

Power looked good coming from AC2, but it would not qualify.

The green AC2 light on the inverter never blinked. 

When I turned off the 60 amp breaker that connects the inverter to the grid, the inverter logged a F27 L1 Over Voltage fault.  It would self clear in 5 minutes.   The inverter would still not qualify the generator.  I'm speculating but it looks like there's a bug here - for instance if the inverter logs the F27 it won't qualify AC2 until AC1 is good again, but AC1 won't be good again until power is restored from the grid and then I don't need the generator ...

Through trial and error, we did find a work around. 

It turns out that the inverter comes up clean after rebooting it. 

AC2 light blinks green on the inverter display panel and the generator qualifies. 

All is good.

Uncertain if this bug effects just the XW Pro 6848, or if it effects the XW+ too, or perhaps if it's peculiar to my install. 

And, I'm not certain that if the power fails during an actual outage if the behavior is the same.  I'll wait and see.

Worst case is I need to take a brief outage for the reset/reboot if I need to go to generator. 

Better than nothing....

Dave Angelini

And most people with the grid, would have the outage, then they start the genset. 

 Having a genset auto start from a Schneider AGS is not a smart thing to do unless you have some serious medical problem. Even then I would discourage it as a generator can start a fire when people are not there to monitor.

I also discourage it because my liability insurance is cancelled   

 XW+ and XWpro, even though they are the same physical device, are very different electrically and firmware wise. Different animals and can't be in the same cage, or system.

We are sending the smoke east for the first time in 11 days 

GoldenGate

Schneider has released firmware 1.09 for Gateway and XW Pro.

They do say that they've fixed the AC2 generator qualify issue.

I've updated gateway to 1.09

I've updated XW Pro to 1.09

Generator qualifies as expected on AC2, no issues.

And, the inverter didn't raise an alert when I cut the breaker that provided power to it from the grid during the test.

However, when connected to the grid and entering grid sell mode, the inverter entered that nasty cycle:

Qualifies AC1
Charges batteries
Counts down
Inverts to 5.6 KW max or so
Drains the batteries
Goes clunk
Disconnects from AC1
... repeat

I reset/reboot the inverter and grid sell mode acted as it should.

So, looks like firmware 1.09 is good.

r2d4

GoldenGate Can you send me the .fwo file for XWPro  version 1.03?

Dave Angelini

This is current. New soon I hear.  

XW Pro 120-240V Firmware V.1.09_BN0009

https://solar.schneider-electric.com/product/xw-pro-na-solar-hybrid-inverter/

r2d4

@Dave Angelini I currently have Firmware V.1.09_BN0009, but having tons of issues. I just want to revert back to 1.03 since it was working without any problems. 

Dave Angelini

You should tell Schneider. As I said there is new out soon. Maybe before xmas.

https://solar.schneider-electric.com/netsuite/

If I find a copy I will let you know here. I doubt I have it still.   XWP works great offgrid for my clients & me BTW !

r2d4

Rgr. Reported problems Tuesday still waiting for a response. Does anyone have a number for Schneider? Crossing my finger for the new version to solve current version issues. 

Dave Angelini

They really will only deal with their installers by phone. Who installed your system?  You wrote here that firmware fixed your issues. I am confused by you not saying specifically what is happening. They (S) can take 3 + working days to get back and that is pre C19. They also shut down for 2 weeks as many large companies do this month. 

The only old firmware I have is 1.09 bn9 from beta 2 years back. Maybe someone else could have it but people just do not think to save before they upgrade. This is really true for grid apps as that is what drives all of this. The version 1.09 bn9 probably works fine for all offgrid from the start.  Good Luck !

GoldenGate

Dave A. - being a software guy ... I just happen to have some old firmware laying around ...

R2D4, FWIW, here's a copy of 1.03.

If it helps you great!

I'm running v1.09 bn9 currently, and it's been better than 1.03, though I'm noticing some strange behavior lately (no absorb charge overnight).

-David

Dave Angelini

We don't absorb at night offgrid

GoldenGate

It would be amusing to absorb at night off grid ...

I run grid tied for the most part.

I am used to seeing battery voltage looking like this:

I assume I'm looking at the XW Pro charger running a brief absorb operation overnight (grid tied), is that correct?

Anyway, I did a generator test.  After successful completion, and running grid tied again, the overnight graph looked like this:

I'm thinking that the XW Pro quit running the absorb cycle overnight, even though I'm grid tied.

Almost as if when I ended the generator test and restored power from the grid it still "thought" it was offgrid, so it shouldn't

run absorb overnight ... I put the system into standby, then back to operating mode and now it's back to running absorb overnight

on the grid. 

mike95490

Only reason I can think of to cycle a battery, on grid, is to buy a new battery in 5 years, to avoid $3 of electricity in the evening.  if the price works for you - OK

Dave Angelini

There are so many config settings that can do this GG,  Literally over a dozen off the top of my head. The advanced settings, new features, timer blocks, load shaves, advanced settings, grid settings, incorrect settings, events new and historical, etc.

Schneider really does not want to be involved with config but you can hope that they will remote view your system and look at all of this for you. They really want you to call your installer, So does Outback BTW.

Maybe the new firmware will fix your issue. I doubt it from what I see in your graphs. Something else is going on.

Do you have a battery summary screen graph for 24 hours being offgrid. That is what your screen should look like but selling at the programmed voltage during sun hours. There are other strategies but they hurt my brain and seem to hurt batteries as Mike said.

 Below is an EQ a 3 hour absorb offgrid for you to reference. Pretty clean graph. Better go and get ready for happy hour

GoldenGate

Thanks Mike, thanks Dave. 

I'm looking into this now.

GoldenGate

Just a brief update on the absorb issue - after my installer opened two tickets on this issue over the last three months, it appears that Schneider has no interest in fixing the problem.   Basically, it appears to boil down to the fact that if the charger is enabled on the XW Pro inverter, the inverter will run repeated absorb cycles overnight and you can't change any of the parameters that would control this behavior.  I've disabled the charger on the inverter. 

At first, they recommended dropping the recharge voltage below the limit at which the inverter charger currently starts charging (51 V).

But I can't do this in the local gateway interface, the insight cloud, or the SCP.  The parameter is not visible and/or not changeable in the gateway or cloud.  It does show in the SCP, but displays no value and does not allow a value to be set.  I've attached a picture of the SCP.

At this point, I'm fairly satisfied with the quality of their hardware, but I think their software interface is broken and needs serious work.

 

Dave Angelini

What firmware are you running on both gateway and XWP. They need to be written and installed together. You should be able to lower recharge to 48V. I just did this here on my XWP. I lowered it to 44v.

GoldenGate

At present, I'm running this software:

 

Inverter 1.09.00bn9
Gateway 1.10 bn 433
SCP 2.04.00bn1
Charger 1.09.00bn6

I upgraded the Gateway to 1.10 at the end of February to resolve the loss of WIFI connectivity that cause the gateway to need to be rebooted daily, or whenever I wanted to access it.  Until this time, I was running the matching version of 1.09 bn 418 on the gateway.  I had installed that to correct the generator qualification issue.   Note that I identified this issue with not being able to change recharge volts when I was running 1.09 on the Gateway and the XW Pro.  

It's good news, Dave, that you were able to change the recharge volts.  How and where did you do it? Might you send me a screen shot?  Here's a shot of my Insight Local and Insight Cloud interface where I can't see it or change it.   Where I can see it (in the SCP), it's blank and can't be changed (see screen shot above).

Local:

Cloud:

Dave Angelini

Firmware is old on your XWP
XW Pro 6848 120-240V Firmware v1.11_BN0028, Note: Gateway / Insight firmware update is a prerequisite

Firmware old on Gateway
Firmware v1.11 BN437

Look I am not saying that because I can make the setting that there is something wrong for you. We have very different systems offgrid and your grid tie. There are plenty of settings that interact in a grid tie that just do not come into play offgrid.

I also am using a custom battery choice and your choice of AGM may also be an issue. You can just copy your settings for AGM and then plug them in the custom battery choice.  Custom battery opens up other choices on Gateway. This may have been your problem all along, or, it may not.

Finally, Good Luck! You have to stop this charging behavior or you will hear the sound of AGM life being diminished! 

GoldenGate

Thanks Dave.

I'll look at upgrading the firmware to 11.  I checked out the release notes earlier, and didn't see anything that led me to believe it had a fix for my issue, so I've held off on the upgrade until now. 

I'm aware of the Custom .vs. AGM possibility, so I've tried changing to Custom, but was still not able to adjust the recharge volts.   Good thing is that you were able to set it in the offgrid case.  It may well be an issue that only effects grid tie configurations. 

At the moment, the workaround I've chosen is to disable the inverter charger, so it's not cooking my batteries!

Crazy to need to so, though, when I think about it.  So much is configurable, so much works so well ... but not this.

Dave Angelini

It is very hard to set one up correctly. I really do not think it is anything other than you have made an incorrect selection somewhere. Your problem of grid cycling at night has been in 3 XW platforms since 2005. Outback has the same issue if not set-up perfectly. We have seen it here many times and it is fixable. I just do not have the time to walk thru all of this, and with 7 other folks I am working with now, I gotta go !

scottb

i had this problem with gen, not qualifying also, tracked it down to two different problems, 1 generator must have perfect output waveform and phase angle or it will not engage. rpm can not change when loaded or it will drop out. a three-phase gen set will not qualify either because of the 120-degree phase angle.if all you have is a small 30 amp gas gen-set most likely it will not couple up as it has unstable output. you can rectify the gen output and run it through a solar charge controller of the right amperage. be sure to clean up the ac pulse with caps n chokes. there is also a fix for three-phase conversion.

timmytool

what is the fix for the 3  phase conversion please thank you timmytool