Puerto Rico earth quakes

mountainmanmountainman Registered Users Posts: 431 ✭✭
Friend of mine has family in Puerto Rico
With no electricity. 
Need help on sizing a system for a refrigerator 1.2 kwh daily usage.
4 120 volt 12 watt led lights for 8 hours 
Charger for 2 cell phones 
2 times a week washing machine. 400 whs x 2 800 whrs weekly.
I'm not sure on how he's planning on pumping water.
He has a 2000 watt generator for charging and maybe water pump.
Guessing that the washer could be on generator if it is a problem for solar.
Any help would be appreciated. Thanks

2kw array 6 345 q cells  make sky blue 60 cc
 6 230ah GC @36 volts 
18 amp accusense charger. 3650 champion 

Comments

  • mountainmanmountainman Registered Users Posts: 431 ✭✭
    edited January 13 #2
    Forgot to add he has 2 250 watt 60 cell panels 30 voc. and a make sky blue 60 amp mppt.   (I know not the best)
    There are more of the same panels for $70 each used available.

    2kw array 6 345 q cells  make sky blue 60 cc
     6 230ah GC @36 volts 
    18 amp accusense charger. 3650 champion 
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,023 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Simplest would be a combined system, some solar, some generator, and smallish battery to run light/tv at night

    Since they already have a generator, getting an RV style 12V inverter/charger and a bank of 4 golf cart batteries should be the sweet spot.   That would be a 12V 400ah system, using four 6V 200ah batteries.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • EstragonEstragon Registered Users Posts: 4,478 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sounds like about a mid-size cabin system. Is it permanent off-grid or backup? 

    Ball park for full-time; [email protected] bank (1 string L16s or 2 of GC2s), 2-2.5kw pv, ~2.5kw inverter/charger?
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • mountainmanmountainman Registered Users Posts: 431 ✭✭
    edited January 13 #5
    Back up [email protected] estragon so you're saying 8 l16 or 16 gc 200 ah?
    2kw array 6 345 q cells  make sky blue 60 cc
     6 230ah GC @36 volts 
    18 amp accusense charger. 3650 champion 
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    To compare to , I used 12 - 140W panels (1680W)  into a 24 volt system that ran our fridge, Inter net, TV and all lights and small power tools while building our place.  Winter can be tougher when we have a lot of cloud..
    I think he should add some more panels and a better Charge Controller say at least another 1000 W of PV if he can get them.and arrange into a  24V bank minimum

     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • EstragonEstragon Registered Users Posts: 4,478 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 13 #7
    Yes, but for backup I'd go smaller.  How much smaller would depend on how often the backup is expected to be used, for how long, willingness/ability to run genny if needed, etc.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • mountainmanmountainman Registered Users Posts: 431 ✭✭
    edited January 13 #8
    As always money is an issue the controller he has says 720 watts on 12 volts voc at 12 80 volts max.  so 2 panels max 500 watts. With 400ah at 12v 6.5℅
    Charge rate.
    It can do  1440 on 24 volts at 105 max voc 6 panels 3s2p would be 1500 watts.  doable maybe?
    with 2 strings
    Of gc at 208. 416 ah at 24 volts. 
    416x29 /.77x .10= 1566 so almost 10℅charge rate.
    24x416 ~10 kW bank.
    That would give about 2.5 kwh per day with a 2 day reserve. Not sure how long the power
    Will be out but seems to be out quite often.
    2kw array 6 345 q cells  make sky blue 60 cc
     6 230ah GC @36 volts 
    18 amp accusense charger. 3650 champion 
  • EstragonEstragon Registered Users Posts: 4,478 ✭✭✭✭✭
    With the the genny for backup charging, that sounds pretty reasonable to me.

    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • mountainmanmountainman Registered Users Posts: 431 ✭✭
    edited January 13 #10
    I've never been to  p rico but my buddy rod says it's always Sunny and between 70-80f . Looking at pv watts.
    Setting at latitude
     A 1.5 array 5.7 kwh production in December at .77 of stc sounds like that
     should Keep a 10kw battery happy.
    We are considering a 2k inverter any recomendations? Thanks.
    2kw array 6 345 q cells  make sky blue 60 cc
     6 230ah GC @36 volts 
    18 amp accusense charger. 3650 champion 
  • mountainmanmountainman Registered Users Posts: 431 ✭✭
    With my kilowatt meter I can't read start up watts. Would a 1500 3000 surge inverter start a refrigerator?
    2kw array 6 345 q cells  make sky blue 60 cc
     6 230ah GC @36 volts 
    18 amp accusense charger. 3650 champion 
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,023 ✭✭✭✭✭
    With my kilowatt meter I can't read start up watts. Would a 1500 3000 surge inverter start a refrigerator?
    I would hope it would.  Should.   Your 12V wires need to be really good.   2500w @ 12V = 210A your batteries have to source, and get all the way to the inverter without much voltage drop.  That's why 12V systems are so tough, to meet the amp requirements, takes beefy cables and good connections.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 31,068 admin
    Normally, a 1,200 to 1,500 Watt AC inverter (good quality) should start the "average" refrigerator (standard compressor). If they have a modern "inverter-compressor" type fridge, it could be smaller (perhaps as low as 600-1,000 Watt inverter).

    The problem with solar for emergency power systems, is you need just about as large as system to run a refrigerator for 2 weeks as you do for 9+ months. And a 12 volt system is just on the bottom edge of being able to start a standard refrigerator.

    For the sake of discussion, say an 1,800 Watt AC inverter... Both a 12 volt and a 24 volt system design. Since this is for "emergency use", instead of the 2 days of storage and 50% max discharge, lets just use 1 day and 50% discharge (2x daily loads) and plan on using a genset much more when needed. And that this is for a short term (weeks, possibly a month or so, assuming that this may damage/ruin the battery bank in a few years, if not months). If this was for a long term full off grid system, I certainly would be suggesting a 4x daily use battery bank).

    Looking at sizing the battery bank based on energy storage... Say 2 kW per day:
    • 2,000 Watt*Hours per day * 1/0.85 AC inverter eff * 1 day storage * 1/0.50 max discharge * 1/12 volt battery = 392 AH @ 12 volt battery bank
    • 2,000 Watt*Hours per day * 1/0.85 AC inverter eff * 1 day storage * 1/0.50 max discharge * 1/24 volt battery = 196 AH @ 24 volt battery bank
    Note, both above would need 4x 6 volt @ 200 AH batteries (either 2 series * 2 parallel for 12 volt @ 400 AH; or 4 series * 1 parallel for 24 volts @ 200 AH). Same amount of storage energy for each...

    If you assume the worst case starting surge is ~1,200 Watts, then the minimum battery bank would be:
    • 1,200 Watts * 100 AH / 250 Watt surge for [12 volt] FLA battery = 480 AH @ 12 volt flooded cell lead acid battery bank minimum
    • 1,200 Watts * 100 AH / 500 Watt surge for [24 volt] FLA battery = 240 AH @ 24 volt FLAA battery bank minimum
    So... based on starting surge, a 4x 6 volt @ 200 AH battery bank is just on the minimum side of "reliably" starting a fridge compressor (i.e., 12 volts @ 400 AH or 24 volt @ 200 AH). Vs 480/240 AH banks minimum... These are very rough rules of thumbs, and they may want to try the "minimum" bank to start... Or use more batteries or larger AH rated batteries to up the bank size a bit. Remember that a full time off grid bank would probably be 4x (2x larger than above) for a more "optimum" system design.

    Then there is sizing the bank based on state of charge... 5% to 13% is typical. 5% can be used for emergency/weekend system usage (with more genset runtime when needed)... 10%+ is recommended for full time, weeks at a time, rate of charge (note, panel ratings are "the same" for [email protected] or [email protected] systems--Same amount of energy storage battery banks in either one):
    • 480 AH * 14.5 volts charging * 1/0.77 panel+controller derating * 0.05 rate of charge = 452 Watt array minimum
    • 480 AH * 14.5 volts charging * 1/0.77 panel+controller derating * 0.10 rate of charge = 904 Watt array nominal
    • 480 AH * 14.5 volts charging * 1/0.77 panel+controller derating * 0.13 rate of charge = 1,175 Watt array "typical" cost effective maximum
    Then there is sizing the system based on the amount of energy usage and hours of sun per day. Since earthquakes can occur in "any weather/time of year", pick December at 4.95 hours of sun per day:
    • 2,000 WH per day * 1/0.52 off grid system eff * 1/4.95 hours of sun per day = 777 Watt array "December" break even month
    So--I would be suggesting a 904 Watt array minimum, and north of 1,175 Watt array would not be bad (more solar energy and less genset usage).

    Anyway... Some numbers to think about.

    -Bill

    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • mountainmanmountainman Registered Users Posts: 431 ✭✭
    Since the inverter hasn't been purchased yet.
    24 volts seem to have some advantages.
    All Batteries  in series smaller cabling etc.
    Especially with our cc. 
    For a start 4 250 watt panels + 2 more if needed.
     4x 230 ah GC bb.
    1500 3000 surge 24v inverter.
    A separate 24 volt 25-30 amp charger?
    2000 watt generator.
    2kw array 6 345 q cells  make sky blue 60 cc
     6 230ah GC @36 volts 
    18 amp accusense charger. 3650 champion 
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,023 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ....
    A separate 24 volt 25-30 amp charger?
    2000 watt generator.
    24V chargers produce about 28V @ 27A = 756 watts, x2 for conversion losses ,  your generator needs to be in the 1512w continuous rating range.    Be sure it can perform that.   Battery charging is very demanding, it's a solid load for a long time.


    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • EstragonEstragon Registered Users Posts: 4,478 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It may make more sense to get an inverter with a good power factor corrected charger integrated?  Some lower priced separate chargers have pretty poor PF.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • mountainmanmountainman Registered Users Posts: 431 ✭✭
    My only concern is with an integrated inverter charger. If it goes bad I lose both charger and inverter. Back to full time generator.
     and everything has to be shipped to the island.
    Looking at poco price per kw off grid in Puerto Rico makes more sense than in the state of nc. My price is 12 cent per kw.
    Puerto Rico is $3.30
    2kw array 6 345 q cells  make sky blue 60 cc
     6 230ah GC @36 volts 
    18 amp accusense charger. 3650 champion 
  • AguarancherAguarancher Solar Expert Posts: 307 ✭✭✭
    Think you might be off a bit on prices


  • EstragonEstragon Registered Users Posts: 4,478 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Don't know about PR but in some places the fixed costs are more of an issue than $/kwh, especially for small consumers.  If my off-grid cabin was on-grid, the ~$0.15/kwh metered cost would be a small part of the total bill given my low consumption.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • mountainmanmountainman Registered Users Posts: 431 ✭✭
    Like I said I've never been there I'm going by pv watts.
    2kw array 6 345 q cells  make sky blue 60 cc
     6 230ah GC @36 volts 
    18 amp accusense charger. 3650 champion 
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    My only concern is with an integrated inverter charger. If it goes bad I lose both charger and inverter. Back to full time generator.
     and everything has to be shipped to the island.
    Looking at poco price per kw off grid in Puerto Rico makes more sense than in the state of nc. My price is 12 cent per kw.
    Puerto Rico is $3.30

    Yes, the hidden (fixed) charges are a factor. and one never knows when they will dream up another one,  Volcano watching fee? [pardon the sarcasm] We have a Customer Crisis Fund  charge in BC.... No definition of Crisis.

    OK back on the real problem of redundancy.  You are right to think about it now , the issue I see is that if you have an Invert/charger you are going to have one unit that cost ~ the same as 2 quality units [Charger plus Inverter], which do you want to bet on to start  to fail first? It is a Muggs guess.... I followed the 2 unit plan and had to replace the charger first due to an issue with running out of fuel in my INVERTER type Generator. They start to output  poor quality  120 V as the unit surges and dies...
    Good luck.
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • EstragonEstragon Registered Users Posts: 4,478 ✭✭✭✭✭
    "Customer crisis fund charge".... hmmm, sounds a bit like our less official "oops we spent way too much on dams to produce power it turns out we can't sell" rate increases.

    My EU2000i sometimes runs out of fuel, but the Outbacks seem to disqualify the ACin before anything bad happens.  Still, I should probably rig up a supplementary supply.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,023 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The eu2000 series have a suction type fuel pump, so adding a larger external tank is a breeze, about $30 for a kit from ebay with oil change extension gear too !
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 31,068 admin
    This is an extended run fuel cap for the eu2000i (using Amazon link because they typically last much longer than EBay links):

    https://www.amazon.com/Aluminum-Extended-Generator-Magnetic-Dipstick/dp/B071YC8RX9

    Works great (in general, don't know specific vendor). The euxx00i caps are also the air vent for the internal fuel tank. You replace the cap with a fuel fitting/line, and the internal fuel pump "pulls a vacuum" and can pull fuel from a separate fuel tank/container (external contanner must be vented).

    However, in the last year, Honda has a new eu2200i and has discontinued the '2000i version. I have read that the '2200i uses a lightly different size fuel cap. But other vendors list the same extended run fuel cap for both '2000i and '2200i gensets.

    I don't have a '2200i, so I do not know if the same cap fits both or not.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • EstragonEstragon Registered Users Posts: 4,478 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thanks.  I guess "vented" could mean a 5gal plastic gas can with a fuel line struck through the hole where the spout would go?  The newer ones seem to all be vented through the spouts now.  Not sure if I have any old vented ones around.

    I do have a metal boat gas can I ran over with my side x side under the snow that might be "vented" enough now  :#
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 31,068 admin
    I just dropped s weighted plastic hose into a 5 gallon gas can.

    Folks have connected outboard fuel tanks too. But you need to ensure they are vented.

    Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
Sign In or Register to comment.