Kohler Generator Issue - Again, but different

pvoffgrid

I am having Kohler generator start issues again and have reached the point I will never buy another Kohler.  All Kohler has done over the years is refer me to Loftin and the local repair company, Power Generation, and neither have been able to fix the issues.  I am looking for confirmation of my next steps for the current issue: 1) Install a fitting between the internal generator regulator & carb to measure the fuel pressure between the regulator and carb; 2) Replace the regulator if the pressure is not correct and retest the pressure;  3)  if the pressure is fine, 3a) replace the fuel supply line & retest; 3b) replace the engine's intake manifold gasket. I suspect there is a fuel leak someplace. Are these appropriate next steps?  Every line external to the generator, from the generator fuel supply valve to the propane tank, has been tested by both me & the propane company. The propane tank regulator was also replaced by the propane company.  If I do replace the internal generator regulator, where is the best place to buy it? My propane company says they do not sell it.

1. Current issue: Generator will not start automatically until 1) the initial LR error code is cleared by pressing the Off button, 2) the Run button is pressed to attempt to start it manually and a 2nd LR code occurs, 3) the 2nd LR code is cleared by pressing the Off button, 4) the Run button is pressed for a 2nd time, which starts the generator manually 100% of the time on this 2nd attempt, 5) the Off button is pressed to shut it off, 6) the Auto button is pressed which allows the generator to start & stop automatically, as long as there is a need for it to start in the next 15 - 30  minutes.  Once it starts it runs & charges the batteries beautifully!  
2. It is a used Kohler, propane 14 kw RES, purchased in December 2017 for approximately $2,800 installed with about 400 hours on it but since the control board had been replaced by Power Generation they said the hours were not truly known.  However, I had used them exclusively for about 17 years and I trusted them so I bought the generator.  It worked properly for who knows how long - I had left the country unexpectedly for work in early January 2018 so I was not around the house.  My understanding is the generator started automatically just fine during the winter.  Upon my return home in early August 2018 and getting re-acquainted with the house and other things, I noticed the generator had not started when it should because it had a "LR" error.  I told Power Generation it was not a locked rotor issue and that it sounded like a fuel supply issue but multiple service calls, parts replaced left & right, head scratching, $900 plus, a few arguments with their self-proclaimed "best residential generator repairman ever who previously worked for Loftin" technician, and numerous emails & phone calls with Loftin & Kohler, it still gets "LR" error codes after it has sat for over an hour or so...the actual sitting time is unknown. My thought is the propane leaks out so when it needs to start there is not enough fuel in the lines to start. After I go thru the above steps, there is propane in the lines once again so it will start automatically until that propane leaves the line.  It sounds like an old Chevy or Ford with a manual choke trying to start when they are cold - it catches, you think it is going to start, and then, nothing..it dies. Once I replaced the original fuel line Power Generation used when they installed the "new" generator with a brand new yellow 3/4" flex line, I was able to get it started using the above steps. Before I replaced the multiple short 1/2" rubber hoses & fittings with multiple leaks that Power Generation had in their truck when they installed the generator, it would take me 3 - 4 attempts to get the generator to start.  This is why I think it is a fuel supply issue - after 3 - 4 attempts enough propane got into the line to allow it to start. Now, with the new yellow flex line & no leaks, it starts 100% of the time on the 2nd attempt.
3. Previous Kohler issue: 11kw RMY, over the 17 years I used it, would start automatically 100% of the time but then would immediately, with-in 10 - 15 seconds, shut-off and give an error code.  This only occurred when it was about 35 degrees or colder and it had not started for awhile.  Kohler, Loftin, & Power Generation never could figure out why.  I forget how much I spent on service calls, repairs, carb pre-heater, etc but we learned during the winter that upon arriving home to start the generator manually, which would take 2 attempts: 1 fail, 1 successful start, let it run for 1 - 2 minutes, and then put it back into the automatic mode, it would then start automatically in the next 4 - 5 hours & continue to run just fine, no matter what the temperature was.  However, by the next morning, it would error out by starting, running for 10 - 15 seconds, and then stop with an error code.

Estragon

I'm not sure how a fuel supply problem causes a locked rotor error.  If it's turning over well but thinks it isn't, wouldn't that suggest the most likely issue would be; a bad sensor, bad sensor circuit wiring, and/or control board logic fault?  Presumably after multiple service calls these things would have been checked though. 

I don't know anything about the generator, but it makes me wonder if the LR code isn't really checking rotation, maybe just timing out to prevent starter overheating?  If that's the case, the fuel supply theory makes a lot more sense (to me).  It might be worth asking them how the LR error code actually gets thrown?

As well as drawing fuel, the first attempt would heat and vibrate various parts (eg starter motor).  Maybe a connection that's just bad enough to fail cold, and just good enough to work when warm?  I had something like that drive me nuts on a diesel genny.  Connections tested fine with multimeter, but failed with current flowing.

Dave Angelini

Gensets and batts are expendables offgrid. Unless you really like the challenge you need to let it go. You got plenty of years and I would be happy if one of my clients got half the life you did. When the warranty is up the bank account needs to be able to cover it offgrid, I think.

Costco has $700 duel fuels and Kohler always has built some very nice products but for me the benchmark is the 7000i modded for propane. One client has an old 6500i that is 15 years old with the original starting battery, she claims.

mcgivor

Sometimes it's the basics, since the actual hours are unknown, checking the cylinder compression would be a good place to start, if lower than specifications, or less than 100 psi, could cause starting problems.  Spark plugs are cheap to replace, another basic which could be eliminated.

icarus

Sitting in our bone yard is a ~1925 Kohler 4 cyl water cooled 500 Watt DC generator.  Still ran when it was taken out of service in the 1990s.. We used it for years as a early morning generator in a bush camp as it has auto start.  The cooks could light the lights without going to the distant generator shed, until I got up and started the large KW Lister Diesel for the day.  It was tricky as everything on the line needed to be turned off before the DC genny was started or smoke would result.  

Icarus

jtdiesel65

I struggled with an 8.5 rmy for a long time. Hard to start, etc. It ended up being cracked heads.

mcnutt13579

Did we work through this issue here before?  "Locked Rotor" is failure of the control board to detect engine rotation.  Troubleshooting fuel and other issues is a waste of time.

I repeat, the controller is not seeing engine rotation.  No other problem needs troubleshooting but this.  You may have to get meter leads in there on the problem as it is occurring.  This kind of problem is very difficult to figure out when it happens once in the morning.

Is the engine actually rotating when this code occurs?

It could be 1. wiring 2. generator 3. magnetic pickup (if equipped) 4. controller

Nevertheless, Kohler is the only way to go if you want a permanent unit.  Unless you want to spend $10k more.  The engine alone makes it worth it.

If you can't figure it out yourself, you need to hire someone who can.  Loftin is a very large company.  You probably get who you get with them.  Maybe there is a competent small independent who is willing to attack this problem with some sort of guaranteed performance.  But you have to do your research on who to hire, interview carefully, ask very nicely and then trust them.