Morningstar T60 PWM worry

AkoAko Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭
edited August 2017 in Solar Beginners Corner #1
Ever sines the temperature has gone up here my controller seems to be giving me readings that dont seem to make any sense . Shows my Rolls S605 4 x 6v batteries at a much higher voltage than they should have , showing 25.1 early morning ( NIGHT ) just before Bulk , I cant see how they can be that high when my consumption has not changed , in fact after it has had a short time in the evening in Night mode i am seeing them settle out around 25.8 with a Temperatures in the mid 30s which i have checked with a thermometer so i know thats correct .

Previously when the temperature was around 25c i would have something like 24.8 early morning and 25.2 after settling out for night mode . I have been doing 24 hour Log reading set at 30 second intervals and have also noticed that while i used to go from Bulk to Asorb around 11-12 am with around 90-100 amp/hrs its not changing state until around 1.30-2pm at 160-170 amp/hrs , my total amps in each day has gone from 140-150  to 200-260 , some days it stays in Bulk all day despite many weeks of bright sun and no clouds to be seen .

The only change i have made to the controller is i activated the automatic equalize and did a manual one a month ago and everything went as it should .I haven't changed any other settings ..

Looking at the logs i am also noticing a sudden unexplained drop in current , on one occasion i was looking at the State and seen it drop , went straight outside to see if there was any noticeable reason for it , there wasn't  , bright and sunny with no cloud but the current dropped and went back up in a matter of minuites for no apparent reason ,  This anomaly has occurred several times . Will do a screenshot to show what i mean . 

The T60 and batteries are all 7 months old . Batteries are also showing a higher SG than they should but they were doing that before the temperatures here went up , they are checked regularly and only needed topping up once . Have equalized them about 6 or 7 times .

My concern is that damages is being caused by there events , unfortunately i cant even get a reply from Rolls despite many emails as to the correct setting for asorb at 25c , the manual states 30v however a guy who works for them in Germany and says he has a lot of experience with these batteries says 29v , who to believe ?. I cant understand why a company as old as Rolls ignore all messages and emails , i even registered as a user and filled in a long form with every part of my system and setting , i got a conformation but that was all .


1050 Watt 24v Array . BP and Atersa 72 cell Panels 
Morningstar TS-60 Charge Controler
4 x 6v 605 Apm/Hr Rolls S-605 Batteries
Solener 1500w Pure Sinewave Inverter
Studer 400 Watt Pure Sinewave Inverter

Comments

  • mcgivormcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,408 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2017 #2
    The first question about temperature and morning voltage, as the temperature of a lead acid battery increases, so dose the capacity, at the expense of life expectancy, the battery will retain heat despite the ambient dropping at night, so the capacity at 35°C will be about 10%  higher than the capacity at 25°C. 

    The other question about sudden drop in current could be related to something I've noticed on the remote meter, every now and then, randomly  the controller will do a N Check,  which lasts for a few seconds then the current is again displayed, can't say 100% if this is the cause, because I'm not exactly sure what this check is, will have to ask tech support on that, but it could be related.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery bank 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah FLA 24V nominal used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • mike_smike_s Registered Users Posts: 113 ✭✭
    Ako said:
    i cant even get a reply from Rolls despite many emails as to the correct setting for asorb at 25c , the manual states 30v however a guy who works for them in Germany and says he has a lot of experience with these batteries says 29v , who to believe ?. I cant understand why a company as old as Rolls ignore all messages and emails , 
    They've already answered your question. It took all of 30 seconds on their website to find the specs. Why should they put out any effort to defend that against what "a guy" says?
  • AkoAko Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭
    The N check i have seen onto logs often , its shows as NIGHT CHECK but its within a 30 second window so i haven't noticed any change in voltage or current , although that isn't to say there isn't one , i also see from the daily logs , min voltage is always lower than any entry in the logger which im sure is a fridge cutting in , it must drop and recover within the 30 seconds which i know it does from the odd time i have seen the entry in logger voltage show the same Min voltage as the Daily log .

    The manual is the same one that came with the batteries and i have read it so many times and go by the voltages shown although to me they seem high ,im hoping someone who has or has had these batteries before can pass on their experiences or knowledge of them .
    1050 Watt 24v Array . BP and Atersa 72 cell Panels 
    Morningstar TS-60 Charge Controler
    4 x 6v 605 Apm/Hr Rolls S-605 Batteries
    Solener 1500w Pure Sinewave Inverter
    Studer 400 Watt Pure Sinewave Inverter
  • mcgivormcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,408 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2017 #5
    With regards to charge voltage there is a significant difference between batteries in a stationery non cyclical use and off grid application. 
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery bank 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah FLA 24V nominal used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • AkoAko Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭
    Because the GUY  also works for Rolls and is a technical adviser but in Germany , to me thats someone who should know and i got the impression he was not happy when i asked him to explain why he gave different set points to Rolls , his only answer was , i have had years of experience with these batteries and those are what i am telling you to use .
    1050 Watt 24v Array . BP and Atersa 72 cell Panels 
    Morningstar TS-60 Charge Controler
    4 x 6v 605 Apm/Hr Rolls S-605 Batteries
    Solener 1500w Pure Sinewave Inverter
    Studer 400 Watt Pure Sinewave Inverter
  • mcgivormcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,408 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2017 #7
    Battery manufacturers should really provide two sets of charging parameters, one for grid charging, another for off grid, in deep cycle applications, my suspension is they would be very different, because off grid there is a limited window of opportunity, the need to compensate would more than likely mean a more aggressive approach. From all the information I've read, the primary cause of off grid battery failure is cronic undercharging. There is a wealth of information in previous  threads with regards to Rolls batteries, do a search in the window top right. It also appears Rolls has amended their recommendations several times over the years, best of luck. 

    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery bank 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah FLA 24V nominal used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • AkoAko Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭
    edited August 2017 #8
    Yes that would explaine why 2 iferent opinions as to correct setpoints . Here is the reply i got .........................................

    Solar Controller:

     

    Bulk / Absorption: 29.8V

     

    Charger (or Charger / Inverter):

     

    Bulk / Absorption: 30.60V

    Charger Current: 50A

    Absorption time: 4 hours

    Equalisation: 31.8V

    Equalisation time: 2.5 hours

     

    Please note, the above voltages are based on the below mentioned temperature (10°C).

    The lower set of figures are the same as Rolls give precisely but it dosnt mention grid or off grid , the chard says ,  REGULAR CYCLING , PSOC RECOVERY means a grid system , mine is Off Grid

    Im going to do a Rolls search and read what been said about them .


    1050 Watt 24v Array . BP and Atersa 72 cell Panels 
    Morningstar TS-60 Charge Controler
    4 x 6v 605 Apm/Hr Rolls S-605 Batteries
    Solener 1500w Pure Sinewave Inverter
    Studer 400 Watt Pure Sinewave Inverter
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 30,520 admin
    Rolls batteries (industrial type?) have a reputation for needing higher charging/absorb voltages (and time) for off grid/solar applications.

    Keep an eye on specific gravity and water usage. If SG is low at the end of solar charging day, up the absorb voltage a bit. And even up the equalization voltage too if needed.

    And watch the water usage (for flooded cell lead acid batteries--FCLA). A typical lead acid storage battery should use some water (some vendors do make low maintenance batteries that do not use much water such as a Trojan series). If you are having to add water every 1-3 months, you are probably doing OK with charging voltage/time. If you only have to add water every 6 months or longer, you probably need to up the absorb voltage. If you have to add a whole bunch of water every month or less, then you may be charging at too high of voltage and need to back it down a bit.

    And watch battery temperatures--If they are getting really warm at the end of the day--Too high of charging voltage/too long of absorb time may be an issue. Charging a near full/equalizing a FCLA battery turns almost all of the charging energy into heat/gassing hydrogen and oxygen.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • AkoAko Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭
    edited August 2017 #10
    Can really see any actual voltages quoted as definitive however as the batteries are only a few months old and came with the same manual that Rolls give on their website i think 30v at 25c is what i should be using , my only concern now is that my SG has always been above the 1.275 quoted as fully charged , always been closer to 1.290 and now with the battery temperatures in the low 30s im getting 1.310 so is that an indication that i am actually overcharging as float is something i only see every few weeks so their in Adsorption at 30v adjusted down with the RTS to between 29v and 30v . The fluid is the original and im told is 1.265 . I do think though im not taking enough from the batteries at night so possibly that has had an effect , possibly i should have bought a smaller bank , day time i dont even use anything like whats coming in and looking at Absorption figures in 30 second snapshots thats evident from the fact the voltage hardly ever drops and im taking only around 1500 watt/hrs on a 24v system from a 600 Amp/hr bank during the non charging times at night .
    1050 Watt 24v Array . BP and Atersa 72 cell Panels 
    Morningstar TS-60 Charge Controler
    4 x 6v 605 Apm/Hr Rolls S-605 Batteries
    Solener 1500w Pure Sinewave Inverter
    Studer 400 Watt Pure Sinewave Inverter
  • mcgivormcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,408 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You may want to consider skipping a day of charging every  now and then if the night consumption is low, every charge cycle is another cycle off the life expectancy, maintaining a high state of charge without using any capacity is probably more detrimental than actually using some of the capacity say 20-30%. As you are aware the TS rarely goes into float so the voltage is held high, albeit at a low current, which in itself is not nesesarally a bad thing, if the overnight loads are taking a big bite out of the storage capacity. Longer summer days, higher temperatures, lower consumption may well be an enemy in disguise to the overall health of your battery bank . Just a thought, hopefully others will contribute with their views.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery bank 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah FLA 24V nominal used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • AkoAko Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭
    edited August 2017 #12
    Decided to follow the Rolls advisory from Germany and ditch the Rolls Manuel settings for voltages as i have just noticed its wrong anyway . Rolls say to add .or subtract 5mv per 1 degree centigrade per cell above or below 25c  , that equates to a  .06 volts compensation on a 24 v 12 cell bank so at 20 degrees ( 5 degrees below 25 ) it would be a 0.30 change which their chart shows as it does with a 5 degree increase in temperature however at 10 degrees ( 15 degrees below 25 ) the chart shown only a .60 change and at 40 degrees ( 15 degrees above 25 ) it shown  1.10 voltage higher  , unless i am missing something it should be .090 either way , i am wondering if whever wrote the figures in the Rolls chart simply took 20 degrees which showed a variation of .30 and thought 20 degrees is double 10 so he doubled the .30 making .60 not realising that the variation from 25 degrees  is then 15 so 3 times the .30 not double but that wouldent explaine why when its 15 degrees higher it show 1.10v more required . My TS60 is set to Mornlingstars default compensation which matches Rolls manual and all the websites i have read up on Temperature compensation and the TS60 compensates either up or down to exactly compensate as it should hereby making the target voltage different from Rolls once the variation goes beyond 5 degrees , looking at their 2 charts , one for REGULAR CYCLING / PSOE RECOVERY whatever that is , also the INFREQUENT CYCLING / BACKUP SYSTEM the different charge compensations are both wrong . The other strange thing is i realize now that the guy from Germany gave me the figures of 29.8 absorption at 10 degrees which i equate to 29.2 .for the setting at 25 degrees when charging from solar controller that figure is almost the same as shown in the manual for INFREQUENT / BACKUP SYSTEM , for the REGULAR CYCLING / PSOE RECOVERY , for an inverter charger he advises the same as the Rolls manual .

    Solar Controller:

     

    Bulk / Absorption: 29.8V

     

    Charger (or Charger / Inverter):

     

    Bulk / Absorption: 30.60V

    Charger Current: 50A

    Absorption time: 4 hours

    Equalisation: 31.8V

    Equalisation time: 2.5 hours

     

    Please note, the above voltages are based on the below mentioned temperature (10°C).


    Sorry to keep going on about this or if im being thick but i would really like to understand and try to find out what the best settings for these Rolls batteries should be before their possibly damaged .


    1050 Watt 24v Array . BP and Atersa 72 cell Panels 
    Morningstar TS-60 Charge Controler
    4 x 6v 605 Apm/Hr Rolls S-605 Batteries
    Solener 1500w Pure Sinewave Inverter
    Studer 400 Watt Pure Sinewave Inverter
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 30,520 admin
    I am a little confused... The compensation is actual battery temperature, not room temperature. You said your bank was in the low 30s (C?). If the room is pretty cool (10-15C), then the battery is getting pretty warm from just charging at >90% state of charge (at fairly high current/voltage).

    And, if the hydrometer is reading high--You are knocking off the bubbles from the float?

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • AkoAko Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭
    Yes , i would always quote battery temperature read by the RTS and checked for accuracy from time to time with the thermometer . There are no bubbles in the Hydrometer when i take the readings , i use a large glass Tudor Hydrometer so i would see if there were  . The quote copied and pasted was at a time i bought the batteries and sought advice on charging voltages which was then winter and the battery temperatures were at that time around 10c . Now they are in the low to mid 30s .

    With all the figures i could understand anyone being confused , i had to read it myself several times before sending .
    1050 Watt 24v Array . BP and Atersa 72 cell Panels 
    Morningstar TS-60 Charge Controler
    4 x 6v 605 Apm/Hr Rolls S-605 Batteries
    Solener 1500w Pure Sinewave Inverter
    Studer 400 Watt Pure Sinewave Inverter
  • AkoAko Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭
    Contacted Rolls last night and this morning i had a reply , im impressed at the speed they replied and the information given although the figures given do not match the manual i think its worth posting here as it could be useful for others . As Mcgivor pointed out there should be 2 sets of figures and there are .....

    The attached manual is correct and current information... The Bulletin 614, was product over a (2004) decade ago, and has not been current for at least 10 years. 

    Charging voltages are generally supposed to be set here... 

     The first step is to select the appropriate voltage settings for your system.

    NOTE: If you do not know the voltage of your system, this may be determined by calculating the number of cells in the battery bank.  We do know that each cell is 2 volts and in a battery bank there are a certain amount of cells. 

    12 Volt Battery Bank = 6 Cells

    24 Volt Battery Bank = 12 Cells

    36 Volt Battery Bank = 18 Cells

    48 Volt Battery Bank = 24 Cells

    To determine the Bulk, Absorb, Float or EQ voltage just multiply the number of cells by the volts per cell number and you'll have the correct voltage. 

     

    Settings - Systems with Temperature Compensation

    Inverter/Generator Based Chargers

    Bulk/Absorb 2.45vpc to 2.5vpc...  Generally with the inverters I start in the middle 2.48 and work up or down depending on where Specific Gravity goes. 

    To calculate Absorption time:

    Time = C20 (20 Hr rate of the battery bank) / Nominal Charge Current x .42
     
    Example Single String of S550's with a Charger capable of 100 Amps DC  
    Time = 423 AH / 100 A x .42    [423/100 x .42]
    Time = 1.77 Hours or 1 Hour and 50 mins. 

    Float 2.20 VPC. 

    EQ 2.58 to 2.65 VPC

    Equalization Time is typically 1/2 to 2/3rd of Absorption Time, but may be determined when the measured specific gravity of cells stops rising.  Specific gravity readings should be taken after the 1st hour and every 30 mins following.  When the specific gravity readings have not increased for 60 mins you may stop the equalization charge. 

    For systems with temperature compensation, Rolls recommends the Bulk and Absorption voltage setting at the 2.45vpc to 2.5vpc because this is slightly above the midpoint of the temperature compensation scale.  This will safeguard any possible undercharge where the system compensates for high/low temperature changes. 

    Renewable Sources (Solar)

    Bulk/Absorb 2.48 to 2.5vpc

    Absorb Time Follow the Formula Time= .42 * C20 Rate / Nominal Charge Current. 
    Example Single String of S550's with a Charger capable of 80 Amps DC 
    Time = .42 X 423 / 80a
    Time = 2.22 Hours or 2 Hour and 25 mins. 

    Float 2.25 to 2.3 vpc. 

    EQ 2.58 to 2.65vpc
    EQ Time Usually about 1/2 to 2/3rd of Absorb time,, but depends on when SG stops rising You want to measure SG after the 1st hour every 30 mins once the SG stops rising for 60 mins you stop the EQ charge.

    If you notice the specific gravity of cells begin to decrease after the first 4 months of usage we recommend increasing Bulk and Absorption voltage as well as Absorption time in small increments. If you record higher than normal specific gravity readings at a full charge (resting in Float), these voltage settings may be decreased slightly.

    It is expected that adjustments in voltage and Absorption time will be necessary a few times per year based on changes in temperature and usage conditions. 

    If you are  not using temp compensation you need to adjust battery voltage based on the actual temperature of your batteries, because this temperature changes rapidly, specifically when charging your batteries, we strongly recommend using charging devices that are temperature compensated.  

    For Flooded Batteries to prevent sulfation, it's essential that you complete at least 1 full absorb/bulk cycle at least every 3-4 weeks. 

    For AGM Batteries to prevent sulfation, it's essential that you complete at least one full absorb/bulk cycle every 6-7 days. 

    Be cautious of current meters often these meters can be "confused" as to when a battery is full, a Sulfated battery will appear fully charged to one of these meters due to the quick current drop off you'll see with a sulfated battery. 


    Regards


    1050 Watt 24v Array . BP and Atersa 72 cell Panels 
    Morningstar TS-60 Charge Controler
    4 x 6v 605 Apm/Hr Rolls S-605 Batteries
    Solener 1500w Pure Sinewave Inverter
    Studer 400 Watt Pure Sinewave Inverter
  • mcgivormcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,408 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2017 #16
    Based on all the information provided, witch outlines voltages, currents, and times, it would appear it is dependent upon the particular installation, as all vary, according to loads, temperature and so forth, given the details, it would seem your SG is rising which would indicate a reduction of voltage is required, no point in over  charging. Pay particular attention to the electrolyte if gassing  regularly that is an indication of over charging, a few bubbles occasionally is where you want to be, this is a fine line, the manufacturer can suggest values, but can't cover every situation, the reason behind the adjustment suggestions. The skip a day suggested earlier, allows the battery to work, if the overnight loads are small, as indicated previously, it's a learning process, an intimate relationship, nobody can provide definitive set-points as each situation is unique, but it would seem, based on SG values you are close, it's a matter of fine tuning.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery bank 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah FLA 24V nominal used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
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