Complex Off Grid Setup (Can this work?)

kmfcapkmfcap Registered Users Posts: 1
Lets say I want to have a 30KW panel array. Can I have a 3phase inverter that lets me run my barn at 3 phase, my house at 1 phase (120V and 240V) and charge a Li battery and have any excess switched over to charge an EV??

Comments

  • bill von novakbill von novak ✭✭✭✭ Solar Expert Posts: 858 ✭✭✭✭
    All the above is possible.  You can get three phase 120'208V from three stacked Outback inverters.  You can get 120/240V from two stacked Outbacks.  You can charge batteries (indeed you will need them) and you can charge EV's with them.  You can get enough charge controllers, and enough battery, to deal with 30kW of charging power. 

    You will, of course, pay a lot for all that.  (You'll also need a generator of course.)
  • BB.BB. admin Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 29,634 admin
    How much do you want to spend... A 30 kWatt solar array would support around a 3,000 to 6,000 AH @ 48 volt battery bank.

    For example a 3,000 AH @ 48 volt battery bank in fork lift batteries would require 2 series * 2 parallel for 4 batteries total:

    http://www.solar-electric.com/batteries-meters-accessories/batteries/crdecyinba1/crinba1/24voinba/crinba24vo15.html

    Specifications

    • 24 Volts
    • 1500 Amp-hours at the 20 hour rate
    • Dimensions: 38.63"L x 19.19"W x 26.25"H
    • Weight: 2244 pounds

    Warranty: 1500 cycles to 80% DOD for five years full replacement.

    At ~$7,800 each (no taxes or shipping charges), that is ~$31,200 worth of batteries (these batteries should last 15+ years if well taken care of).

    Add everything together, you are probably looking at somewhere around a $100,000 system (excluding labor and genset)... (just a really rough guess).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini ✭✭✭✭✭ Solar Expert Posts: 4,753 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Another battery that I often use and have alot of my clients using are the 1,100 AH 20Hr rate 2 volt cells from US, Surrette, and trojan.
    About $7,500  for 24 and less than 120 pounds each. You can add a  SMA TL 3 phase inverter are you sure there is not a utility?
    and an XW 6848 or  (3) XW 6848's if no utility. I would guess more like $50K with solar tax credit & without labor/genny.  Not as good of a battery but should last close to 10 years with good care.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • vtmapsvtmaps ✭✭✭✭ Solar Expert Posts: 3,738 ✭✭✭✭
    Another battery that I often use and have alot of my clients using are the 1,100 AH 20Hr rate 2 volt cells from US, Surrette, and trojan.
    The Trojan and USbattery 2 volt cells in an L-16 case are actually three 2 volt cells in parallel.  A single string at 48 volts has 72 individual cells to check and water.  :(   I would not be happy about that if I had those batteries.

    Trojan does make a 2 volt industrial battery that is just one big cell. 

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • mike95490mike95490 ✭✭✭✭✭ Solar Expert Posts: 8,416 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What is the demand for 3ph ?  Just one tool used for 20 min 3x a week ?    A single  XW gives 120/240ac  and you could use a converter if your demand is not too high.     Can a large genset be used for the occasional 3ph load ?  

    You are talking about  a LOT of battery here, and it starts going bad the day they are built.
     
    Try looking at VFD controllers that soft start a 3ph load from a 240 split phase circuit.   Stacking several inverters to get 3 ph will be costly. 
      If you have Grid nearby, look at just a simple grid-tie system with a backup generator.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini ✭✭✭✭✭ Solar Expert Posts: 4,753 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2016 #7
    The trojan are but not the US battery. Trust me on this one! Yes there are 3 openings on the US but you can use any of the 3 for water and SG. That is why they are first on my list. A few other reasons also!
    I assumed that the OP had the solar and so Captain Bill's 100K price guess is probably more accurate.

    It could be cheaper if he had an offgrid mindset and ran the 3 phase only during the day and used the splitphase offgrid, at night.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • BB.BB. admin Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 29,634 admin
    And, I am not in the Solar Business--Dave Angelini is--And he can give you better estimates for an installed system (in his area of California) than I ever could.

    The price is just a real rough estimate--Just to size the system against the wallet. If it still makes sense, then proceed forward. If it does not make sense, then revisit the Wants vs Needs equation of the project.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini ✭✭✭✭✭ Solar Expert Posts: 4,753 ✭✭✭✭✭
    BB. said:
    And, I am not in the Solar Business--Dave Angelini is--And he can give you better estimates for an installed system (in his area of California) than I ever could.

    The price is just a real rough estimate--Just to size the system against the wallet. If it still makes sense, then proceed forward. If it does not make sense, then revisit the Wants vs Needs equation of the project.

    -Bill
    Sorry Bill but I am happy to say that I stopped all installation and only do systems that the owner can install or a skilled handyman that I supervise by text, e-mail, or voice.  I try to send the owners to the store here also but my wholesale account at Soligent is nice as the whole system with the tracker is shipped in one shipment world wide. I use the old Bob Noyce /Intel  "copy exactly" for my systems to keep them simple for my clients. I have broke this installation promise and traveled to Hawaii and Costa Rica last year......

    Carpal tunnel in a wrist got me and I am going to get surgery this year. Lot's of snow here today but the Sierra Sun and CAVU conditions are pumping the amps in  after 3 poor days. No Generators here!

    How is Superbowl City? I heard Joe Montana was up signing autographs!
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • zonebluezoneblue ✭✭✭✭ Solar Expert Posts: 1,218 ✭✭✭✭
    Yup. Comes down to budget and what the alternatives are. If your power line is 100 miles away then, the plan becomes more attractive.
    1.8kWp CSUN, 10kWh AGM, Midnite Classic 150, Outback VFX3024E,
    http://zoneblue.org/cms/page.php?view=off-grid-solar


  • VicVic ✭✭✭✭ Solar Expert Posts: 2,970 ✭✭✭✭
    The trojan are but not the US battery. Trust me on this one! Yes there are 3 openings on the US but you can use any of the 3 for water and SG. That is why they are first on my list. A few other reasons also!
    I assumed that the OP had the solar and so Captain Bill's 100K price guess is probably more accurate.

    It could be cheaper if he had an offgrid mindset and ran the 3 phase only during the day and used the splitphase offgrid, at night.


    The Surrette L-16 sized 2 V batteries are a single cell,  with a single cap:

    http://www.solar-electric.com/batteries-meters-accessories/batteries/suprdecyba/2voltbatteries1.html

    FWIW,     Vic

    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH [email protected], 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
  • mike95490mike95490 ✭✭✭✭✭ Solar Expert Posts: 8,416 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The trojan are but not the US battery. Trust me on this one! Yes there are 3 openings on the US but you can use any of the 3 for water and SG. That is why they are first on my list. A few other reasons also!.
    Awesome information, I'm helping a friend and this valuable info
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • vtmapsvtmaps ✭✭✭✭ Solar Expert Posts: 3,738 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2016 #13
    vtmaps said:
    The Trojan and USbattery 2 volt cells in an L-16 case are actually three 2 volt cells in parallel.  A single string at 48 volts has 72 individual cells to check and water.  :(   I would not be happy about that if I had those batteries.

    Trojan does make a 2 volt industrial battery that is just one big cell. 
    Yes there are 3 openings on the US but you can use any of the 3 for water and SG. That is why they are first on my list. A few other reasons also!
    I stand corrected, thanks!  That's very good to know because I too like US Battery.  My batteries are 6 volt US Battery L-16, but distributed and relabeled by Interstate.

    That opens up some possibilities... perhaps use one of the caps for a temperature probe, one for an electrolyte level indicator, and the third cap for venting and adding water.   Is there any reason why you need more than one cap for venting?

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini ✭✭✭✭✭ Solar Expert Posts: 4,753 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Vic said:
    The trojan are but not the US battery. Trust me on this one! Yes there are 3 openings on the US but you can use any of the 3 for water and SG. That is why they are first on my list. A few other reasons also!
    I assumed that the OP had the solar and so Captain Bill's 100K price guess is probably more accurate.

    It could be cheaper if he had an offgrid mindset and ran the 3 phase only during the day and used the splitphase offgrid, at night.


    The Surrette L-16 sized 2 V batteries are a single cell,  with a single cap:

    http://www.solar-electric.com/batteries-meters-accessories/batteries/suprdecyba/2voltbatteries1.html

    FWIW,     Vic

    But way too many failures and that is why they are my last choice. Their worst hour was not even putting a date code on 2 different battery sets in 2 parts of the country. Steve Higgins has sorted them out a bit but that level of failure is hard to forgive.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • VicVic ✭✭✭✭ Solar Expert Posts: 2,970 ✭✭✭✭

    Dave,   yes,  had  noted that you did become less sanguine on Surrette.

    Have had no problems with Surrette,  and neither have the friends and neighbors that use Surrette.   But Surrette is not the least-expensive battery,  so, many seem to use Floor Scrubber L-16s.

    If I needed to buy another battery bank for personal use,  would choose Surrette again,  as am still waiting for more data on LiPo,   and so on.

    Vic

    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH [email protected], 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini ✭✭✭✭✭ Solar Expert Posts: 4,753 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I personally agree with you Vic but the 87 clients I have all have different stories. I think Mr. Higgins has helped them and they needed it.
    I also am only talking about the 2V cells and the other L16's have been fine. Well, other than the ridiculous Trojan 2V L16.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

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