I thought I was pretty smart on solar.... Problems keep coming need advice...

Stix

I started out trying solar and thought it would be easy. I understand alot of it but alot always seems to go wrong.. No sense in trying to figure it all out and think I know it all.. I do not. I am having a problem with charge controller saying batteries are full but sp gravity saying they are no where near charge.... I have 8 6v batteries for a bank of 430AH and 500 watts in panels to a renogy 40 amp chargeer. I use very little during the day/night and it is almost always in float yet battery gravity is always saying needing charge. Even when i went to 1 bank to eliminate the inconsistency of more and reduced to 230 AH as son as i hooked up it said full yet specific gravity said charge...., What am I doing wrong!!

I have 500 watts in panels thru renogoy and the renogy 40 amp mppt. Frustrated.....

Photowhit

Lets get some system information out in the open,

12 or 24 volt system? 1 string of 4 6 volt 230 amp batteries?

What type of panels 12 volt nominal (17.5-19 VMP), 24 volt nominal (35-38 VMP), grid tie panels @26-30 VMP

Charge controller, PWM (Pulse width modified) or MPPT (Multi Power Point Tracking) settings are manual switches, DIP? or screen programmable? What are the settings?

westbranch

Also what are the settings you are using on that charger. I am suspecting, amongst other possibilities, that your absorb time is too short and/or the absorb voltage is a tad low. What make of battery and what does the manufacturer state for charge parameters?

waynefromnscanada

What is make and model of batteries, and are they flooded, AGM or gel? How many battery strings in parallel? What is voltage of battery bank? What voltage is controller set for? What size and how long are the wires between controller and battery bank? What is the voltage of the controller fine tuned to? Is there installed a remote battery voltage connection, and is there a remote battery temperature sensor feeding temp info the the controller?

Brlux

I am guessing we are talking bout a 24V system, I am also guessing you see about 16A of charge current which is about 3.7% of capacity for both strings. With a single string it is still a bit on the under powered side of a good balance of panels to battery. Someone more knowledgeable can probably comment on this but I think ideally you want it between 10-15%

EDIT it looks like between 5-13% is a more appropriate figure with 10% being ideal.

But my guess is your real problem is with your charge controller. You need one that you can adjust the voltage for the different stages of the charge based on your specific battery manufacture recommendations. Ideally your charge controller would also have a probe for temperature compensation as those values change with temperature.

Try looking up your battery speck sheet and see if your current charge controller differs form what is recommended.

Stix

Ok it is a 24v system and they are the sams club 6v batteries flooded not agm. The renogy 40 amp mppt controller only lets me set type of battery agm/gel/flooded. The panels are 24v and have 55.8 volts coming into controller at peak and maxs out at like 19 amps at peak. I set up the system for very short wires. From panels to CC 20 feet from controller to batteries 4 feet. On the controller it just asks what type of battery and then asks for AH amount. I had just one parallel bank but I removed it to just a single bank to see if that was the problem. Panels 30.10v vmp 8.32 amps

The controller is Renogy® Tracer 4210 40 Amp MPPT Charge Controller 12/24V 100VDC Input. I can still send the controller back if there is a better option for a controller. I have 2 more panels coming so that would bake it 1000w in panels. Max this controller can take. Mostly this will be for power outage and would run lights/laptops/plugs/LED TV minimal draws stuff. Lights and tvs are all LED. Desktops were traded for laptops. Refrigerator could be ran off this if needed but a gas generator would be used to cycle that and the well.

Brlux

If you think you can live with a 30A limit the Midnight Kid might be a good option for about $150 more. Get the temperature probe. The wizbang JR is a nice upgrade with a shunt to be able to tell you your battery state of charge an I think it also helps get a better charge in to the battery. Someone feel free to correct me if I am wrong but the Kid limits at 30A even if you have more panels than that attached. So it is OK to have an array that is slightly over sized. You will be losing some potential at peak but the over size will be helping when there is less than ideal solar exposure.

The Kid can also do 48V, if you at some point decided switch to 48V you would just need to get a different inverter, you could put all your batteries in series.

This is a cool tool for playing with different configuration on the Kid.

inetdog

In a small battery system where the Bulk current limit must be set lower than the full capacity of the CC, I think that using the WBJ will allow the CC to put out more current, with some going indirectly to the load, while limiting the charging current to what you set. If not, that should be a feature!

Brlux

I believe it that is the main function of the WBJ. Being able to report battery state of charge is a nice bonus feature.

Stix

I was thinking of going with the midnite classic 150 so I have room to expand. I am sending the renogy back. Thoughts on the classic 150 with 4 250 watt 24v panels 430 ah 24v bank figuring maybe 900 watts max usage rare and 500 average at during the day. As I build up add more to the system like a fridge during the day and back to grid at night.

Brlux

Should be great, I think it comes with the temp probe. Here is the classic sizing tool.

Get the WBJ/Shunt if you can.

westbranch

Stix wrote: »

Thoughts on the classic 150 with 4 250 watt 24v panels 430 ah 24v bank

It will just purr:cool: once you get all the settings worked out...

ADD: the specs for those 24V panels are a bit low you will lose some power to dropping from 60V to 24V nominal... double them up if using FLAs.

Stix

westbranch wrote: »

It will just purr:cool: once you get all the settings worked out...

ADD: the specs for those 24V panels are a bit low you will lose some power to dropping from 60V to 24V nominal... double them up if using FLAs.

I would double them up. Sending Renogy back and ordering the 150.

Stix

Ordered the midnite solar classic should be here tomorrow. I did not see the shunt you were referring to got a link to it? I should have it wired up tomorrow night sometime and set it up. Looking for the sams club battery charging information now. Charging batteries all back to 100% with battery charger to make sure they are 100% before hooking the controller up again.

Belmont Solar

This is the shunt & the Whizbang JR:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/201289248306

Stix

Thank you.

BB.

Our host also has the Whiz Bang Jr:

http://www.solar-electric.com/midnite-solar-whiz-bang-jr-current-sense-module.html

And the shunt that goes with it:

http://www.solar-electric.com/midnite-solar-shunt.html

-Bill

Stix

Always good to keep the host happy. Thank you Well I can switch my batteries to 48v. The gopower 24v inverter is acting up and being returned. If I ever was gonna do it now would be the time. I would lose alot of AH and go down to 230AH but I would only be in series no parallel. It is now or never any thoughts on this?

BB.

Remember that Energy = Voltage * Current * Hours ....

So, if you double the voltage and 1/2 the Amp*Hours, you still have the same energy storage.

A big issue when you go to 48 volts is that many of the common DC switches, fuses, curcuit breakers are limited to ~24 volt maximum. You have to search around (and perhaps pay more) for 48 VDC rated gear.

Another issue is that the higher the battery bank voltage, generally you can only find large AC inverters (and their larger tare losses). So, if you have smaller peak/average loads, a 48 volt system is not always the most cost effective solution.

Do a couple paper designs and see what works out best for you. Paper is cheap.

-Bill

Stix

Very true Bill. My breakers are rated for 42VDC. Since I was in the position to do the switch I thought I would kick it around. Easier to buy once as I am finding out!! The Renogy controller had to go though as it really interfered with my ham radio equipment. Especially 2 meters. No matter how many ferrite beads or where I placed it.

Brlux

If you can get past the breaker issue and want to go 48V later, keep your eye out on ebay for 48v Exeltech XP1100 inverters. I have picked up a few over the years for very good prices. Some data centers used them in a series UPS configuration and at some point dismantled the systems dumping dozens of them on Ebay. I think lots of people bought them because they were a good price or didn't realize that they were 48V and then later couldn't use them. They still pop up from time to time for good prices. I am always leery of buying used inverters on ebay so make sure the price is worth the risk. Worst case Exeltech will referb a blown out inverter for something like $100.

Incase you can't tell, I really like the Xeltech inverters.

Stix

Ok you got me reading so much my head hurts. Watching the videos and reading. The batteries I have are Deka GC15/ GC2 sams rebadged but having a hard time understanding what to set the parameters for the Controller tomorrow. I have 8 6v batteries for 430AH 24V

I think I am now just over thinking.

Here is what they give me.

1. BULK STAGE = 30% of C20 (or 30% of 215Ah)
64.5 amps (max.current) per series string.
Multiple the 64.5 amps x the parallel strings, if applicable. ..................................129

2. ABSORPTION STAGE = 2.40 - 2.45 vpc (x 3 cells) = 7.32 v x the # of batteries in your string ............ 29.8

3. FLOAT STAGE = 2.30 - 2.35 vpc (x 3 cells) = 6.96 v x .................................... 27.84

4. EQUALIZE STAGE = 2.50 x 2.55 vpc (x 3 cells) = 7.59 v x ............................... 30.36

NOTE: ***TEMPERATURE COEFFICIENT IS -3mV / Cell


Does that look about right?

Photowhit

Don't buy the Whiz Bang Jr and Shunt! I believe the Whiz Bang Jr ships with the classic now, The NAWS listing says it comes with a voucher for the Whiz Bang JR, but I think it ships with it now!

NAWS Advert wrote:

NOTE: This controller comes with a voucher for a free Whiz Bang Jr. current sense module for customers in the United States.

Vic

Photowhit wrote: »

Don't buy the Whiz Bang Jr and Shunt! I believe the Whiz Bang Jr ships with the Classic now, The NAWS listing says it comes with a voucher for the Whiz Bang JR, but I think it ships with it now!

[/COLOR]

Thanks Photowhit, was catching up on this thread, and was going to add the fact, that the most recent Standard Classic purchase (from Wind-Sun) about 5 weeks ago DID come with a voucher for the FREE WhizBang Jr. (this is fulfilled by MidNite Solar, at least for domestic USA).

Many MidNite e-panels include a 50 mV 500 A Shunt, so buying a Shunt may, or may not be necessary.

Deltec Shunt:
http://www.solar-electric.com/batter...kb-500-50.html

MidNite now offers their own Shunt, which has two added tapped holes in one end of the Shunt, to allow adding a medium-sized Busbar:
http://www.solar-electric.com/batter...lar-shunt.html


BTW, the Classic Lites do not have the WBJr voucher included.

FWIW, Vic

Vic

Stix wrote: »

... The Renogy controller had to go though as it really interfered with my ham radio equipment. Especially 2 meters. No matter how many ferrite beads or where I placed it.

Hi Stix,

The Renogy CC is probably not FCC Class B Certified. The Classic, is ...
But FCC B testing and Emission Reduction techniques begin at 30.00 MHz. So Class B should help your 2 M issues, but, most MPPT CCs can and often do make a reasonable amount of noises of the HF frequency ranges -- the lower the frequency of the Ham Band, often, the larger are the CC emissions.

Most CCs respond to the customary Common-Mode Chokes, isolation of antennas from the PV array, shielding, etc.

Also, many inverters make a reasonable amount of emissions, but, at least for Inverters and such items connected to the AC power line, FCC B applies from 100 KHz to 30 MHz, IIRC. If you have no interest in the HF Ham bands, then many of these issues and remedies will not apply.

Generally, suppression of VHF and UHF emissions are somewhat simpler to resolve with MPPT CCs, where FCC B does apply, and straightforward reduction techniques do apply.

FWIW, Vic

Stix

Thanks all. Just got it and setting up It did indeed come with the voucher for a free whizbang!!! Pretty awesome. Onto the setup.

Stix

Well set up was alot easier than I thought it would be and..... Wow is it alot different than the Renogy. Setting up battery voltages and network to view on the computer was a breeze. Nice to have it right on the desktop for easy inspection. So far so good and thanks for all the help. Shunt has been ordered and mailing the voucher for whizbang jr today!!

Also it took care of the interference on my ham radio equipment a huge plus!!

Stix

First full day on the Midnite solar classic and it blows away the Renogy!! My batteries charged fully..... Never happened with the Renogy. Which I believe is due to the better charging setup parameters for bulk absorb and float on the classic as I can set for what the manufacturer recommends.. Today was a mostly cloudy day but broke for sun around 3pm or so and then was partly sunny. Still managed with my 250 watt panels 2kw and 75 amp hours. Was in float mppt for awhile and float for 2 hours. I was running the fridge and washer along with the lights and plugs in the house today just to test it out. Highest wattage 510 and 19.1 amps.

I really like this controller. Pretty simple to setup and network and works great.

boomadge

Stix wrote: »

Ok you got me reading so much my head hurts. Watching the videos and reading. The batteries I have are Deka GC15/ GC2 sams rebadged but having a hard time understanding what to set the parameters for the Controller tomorrow. I have 8 6v batteries for 430AH 24V

I think I am now just over thinking.

Here is what they give me.

1. BULK STAGE = 30% of C20 (or 30% of 215Ah)
64.5 amps (max.current) per series string.
Multiple the 64.5 amps x the parallel strings, if applicable. ..................................129

2. ABSORPTION STAGE = 2.40 - 2.45 vpc (x 3 cells) = 7.32 v x the # of batteries in your string ............ 29.8

3. FLOAT STAGE = 2.30 - 2.35 vpc (x 3 cells) = 6.96 v x .................................... 27.84

4. EQUALIZE STAGE = 2.50 x 2.55 vpc (x 3 cells) = 7.59 v x ............................... 30.36

NOTE: ***TEMPERATURE COEFFICIENT IS -3mV / Cell


Does that look about right?

Same batteries I use but I am 4x6V@215Ah did a lot of research and contacted many people to get info for mine.
Went threw the voltage calibration on the kid and there setup like this.
Bulk 29.8
Float 27.8
equalize 30.4
Tcoef -3Mv cell
end amps 2.6 (weekend cabin so this will vary)

Little over 3 months with the settings and SG has been perfect across all cells,

Almost forgot to say makes a big difference with the proper equipment ehh:)

Glad to see its working out for ya..

Brlux

I think you need to go on Amazon and leave an appropriate review for the Renogy / Tracer. The reviews are way to good for what it actually is and I think they give people false hope that what they are getting will be a good solution to their solar project. With the price difference being what it is between the Renogy and the Midnight Kid I don't see any reason anyone should buy one of these poorly thought out charge controllers.

O and I am glad you are liking the Classic.

Stix

Brlux wrote: »

I think you need to go on Amazon and leave an appropriate review for the Renogy / Tracer. The reviews are way to good for what it actually is and I think they give people false hope that what they are getting will be a good solution to their solar project. With the price difference being what it is between the Renogy and the Midnight Kid I don't see any reason anyone should buy one of these poorly thought out charge controllers.

O and I am glad you are liking the Classic.

I agree and I will. I just am humbled at how complex solar is to what I thought it would be.... I feel like I am in grade school..... And that is ok. I can learn.