$13,000 offgrid battery

So we should replace a few thousand dollar recyclable forklift traction battery with the very non recyclable far more expensive lithium battery. As if going off grid isn't expensive enough already.
I see it as good for some CEOs wallet, not super awesome for the environment.
Then if you accidently discharge the battery once, its done. At least you can usually bring back traction batteries from a real deep discharge most of the time, until they get old.
Read all about it.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/new-tesla-battery-could-end-electricity-bills/ar-BBiU7fs
I see it as good for some CEOs wallet, not super awesome for the environment.
Then if you accidently discharge the battery once, its done. At least you can usually bring back traction batteries from a real deep discharge most of the time, until they get old.
Read all about it.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/new-tesla-battery-could-end-electricity-bills/ar-BBiU7fs
Solar hybrid gasoline generator, 7kw gas, 180 watts of solar, Morningstar 15 amp MPPT, group 31 AGM, 900 watt kisae inverter.
Solar roof top GMC suburban, a normal 3/4 ton suburban with 180 watts of panels on the roof and 10 amp genasun MPPT, 2000w samlex pure sine wave inverter, 12v gast and ARB air compressors.
Comments
As for the future, the most hopeful business model is that the grid turns more green. But at the moment that is more expensive, and customers wish for green, but demand cheap.
here are a couple reference from a couple years back:
http://www.engadget.com/2012/11/15/gm-and-abb-repurpose-used-chevy-volt-batteries-to-provide-home-b/
http://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2012/Nov/electrification/1114_reuse.html
I suspect they are having trouble getting used batteries as I have only heard of a couple replacements over the last 4 years! LOL Those were for coolant leaks or other minor failures and GM just swapped the whole nine yards.
Ford has the same thing on the Hybrid Fusion, that's a lithium battery warrantied for 8 years too. Lithium batteries impress me.
...but since people are bringing up successes, remember it's the failure that we learn on... Nissan Leaf had many failure but no heating and cooling for the battery.
- Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
Yep I agree and Nissan learned the hard way in buying back many as defective. They had some in AZ loose over 30% in the first year. Of course this is much more critical to a BEV compared to an Extended Range EV like the Chevy.
KID #51B 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
How many people on here have charge controllers and have found a dead bank?
I know its happened, because I have seen the posts about it happening on here.
Solar hybrid gasoline generator, 7kw gas, 180 watts of solar, Morningstar 15 amp MPPT, group 31 AGM, 900 watt kisae inverter.
Solar roof top GMC suburban, a normal 3/4 ton suburban with 180 watts of panels on the roof and 10 amp genasun MPPT, 2000w samlex pure sine wave inverter, 12v gast and ARB air compressors.
I run LiFePO4 starting batteries that I made my self out of raw cells for my vehicles so I am pro lithium too. I just think its a little ridiculous that some people claim they are awesome in every respect imaginable.
The first battery pack I bought (then I made a cool enclosure for it), about 4 years ago and it still works great, the other 2 I constructed with in the next year.
Solar hybrid gasoline generator, 7kw gas, 180 watts of solar, Morningstar 15 amp MPPT, group 31 AGM, 900 watt kisae inverter.
Solar roof top GMC suburban, a normal 3/4 ton suburban with 180 watts of panels on the roof and 10 amp genasun MPPT, 2000w samlex pure sine wave inverter, 12v gast and ARB air compressors.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/46756-Elon-I-love-you-but-the-PowerWall-isn-t-that-great-yet?p=994934#post994934
Thanks for the link! I pulled this from it below. I can build a conventional 48V 400ah L16 system for $2.5K that is 20KWH and 10KWH @ 50% discharge. The size is just about meaningless Offgrid.
They do still have quite some work to complete. Good Luck !
- My setup
"I have avoided comparisons to my own large off-grid solar project to keep this write up as general as possible. However, I feel that it's worth pointing out that my complete setup including everything (100+ solar panels, 8 inverters, installation, and 191kWh worth of Tesla batteries) is costing somewhere around $500/kWh total per kWh of energy storage. Extracting just the parts that the $3000 PowerWall does for that price, those parts cost about $250/kWh (mainly the batteries). Even if my setup were lead acid based (the "ugly" and "smelly" batteries that Elon compared to in his presentation), which it doesn't, the cost would still be significantly less per kWh than a complete system using PowerWalls.Not only that, many solar installers already do these battery setups. They may not be in a sleek and fancy case like Tesla's, but your wallet will be better for it.
I have 191 kWh of storage (that's the same as ~28 of Tesla's 7kWh units......) because that's what it will take to get me through a string of a few rainy days at average or slightly below average usage and to stay off grid as long as possible. Grid electricity is only $0.10 per kWh where I am, so no amount of grid arbitrage would ever pay for itself here. Honestly, my project is beyond what I probably should have invested in it. Unfortunately I was already too far into it to not follow through once that became apparent."
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
E-mail [email protected]
In studying lead-acid battery arrays and the need for custom cabinets with hydrogen detectors, heated battery mats and automatic fans, it looks like keeping the big batteries happy and safe can be a daunting task.
During our most recent winter here in western Mass, we had temperatures dip to minus 16. Lead-acid batteries can't do much when they get really cold.
I'm going to be following this technology. It will be interesting to see how long it will take for prices to start dipping ...
-Bill
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
E-mail [email protected]
kilowatt-hours = (amphours * voltage) / 1000 (220 * 12 / 1000) = 2.6 kilowatthours
2.6Kwh of usable energy. Not even half the Kwh...........for $500 more, Tesla just gave me over 2.5X that amount. Greater depth of discharge, larger storage, safer product, HUGE difference in usable energy. Personally I don't get the Hate. 7Kwh for $3,000 is a steal. to get that with my AGMs id have to shell out over $10,000.00
Unless I'm completely missing something?
How do they arrive at that? Apparently they have sold out to mid 2016
http://thenextweb.com/gadgets/2015/05/07/powerwall-is-sold-out/
Can you link the business weekly article. It did not come up for me
http://zoneblue.org/cms/page.php?view=off-grid-solar
The problem here is controlling the residential switch from selling to the grid and consuming it's own solar locally and lowering the cooling load for a short time. A nice piece of software that is not there, yet.
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
E-mail [email protected]
-Bill
Don't count on it. In 2012 when I bought my AMP20 cells to build my starting battery the cells cost me about $40 each. 3 years later, I picked up 4 more AMP20 cells, paid about $40 each for them.
Pretty sure Lithium will never be able to compete with lead for $/KWH.
Solar hybrid gasoline generator, 7kw gas, 180 watts of solar, Morningstar 15 amp MPPT, group 31 AGM, 900 watt kisae inverter.
Solar roof top GMC suburban, a normal 3/4 ton suburban with 180 watts of panels on the roof and 10 amp genasun MPPT, 2000w samlex pure sine wave inverter, 12v gast and ARB air compressors.
Of course I didn't find this out until after I had switched vehicles over to LiFePO4.
If you charge LiFePO4 batteries that are at or less than 20'F you can permanently damage their capacity. Up to 20% gone just like that.
Lucky for me I had already put them on Anderson connectors aka forklift quick disconnects.
Low temps are not as disabling or damaging to lead acids as they are to lithium.
Solar hybrid gasoline generator, 7kw gas, 180 watts of solar, Morningstar 15 amp MPPT, group 31 AGM, 900 watt kisae inverter.
Solar roof top GMC suburban, a normal 3/4 ton suburban with 180 watts of panels on the roof and 10 amp genasun MPPT, 2000w samlex pure sine wave inverter, 12v gast and ARB air compressors.
I think using hyper expensive lithium batteries in a stationary application, for a build where "money is no object" and trying to push to make it main stream is absurd.
Put lithium batteries in things that move around and put lead in things that don't, or where you need lots of weight for added traction or ballast.
Solar hybrid gasoline generator, 7kw gas, 180 watts of solar, Morningstar 15 amp MPPT, group 31 AGM, 900 watt kisae inverter.
Solar roof top GMC suburban, a normal 3/4 ton suburban with 180 watts of panels on the roof and 10 amp genasun MPPT, 2000w samlex pure sine wave inverter, 12v gast and ARB air compressors.
The ability to sit for long periods in a partial state of charge, and not deteriorate.
Lower resistance; faster charge time. Very attractive for places with limited solar.
The ability to use a greater amount of the total rated capacity.
Light weight means reduced shipping costs.
Some drawbacks too. Nothing is perfect.
http://zoneblue.org/cms/page.php?view=off-grid-solar
I don't even know if a standard habor freight engine hoist is strong enough to lift one with out folding up.
I slightly doubt lithium ability to hold a charge all the time. I put my first lithium battery on the shelf at 13 volts, then went off to Afghanistan and came back a few months later and it was down to 8 volts. No one had touched it, it was sitting on a shelf inside. It has sat for longer since then and held a charge with out issue.
Lithium beats lead every where but cost, recyclability and in the cold.
Lead acids are just cold blooded, where lithiums get frost bite. (that thing where you can lose 20% of your lithium's capacity if you charge the pack when its colder than 20'F and it only takes one single charging to do it)
Solar hybrid gasoline generator, 7kw gas, 180 watts of solar, Morningstar 15 amp MPPT, group 31 AGM, 900 watt kisae inverter.
Solar roof top GMC suburban, a normal 3/4 ton suburban with 180 watts of panels on the roof and 10 amp genasun MPPT, 2000w samlex pure sine wave inverter, 12v gast and ARB air compressors.