240v split phase inverter/chargers with 120v generators?

Hey all,
Some of us have inverter/chargers which are designed for use with regular 120/240v split phase power input from the grid.
I am wondering how people go about things when only a small 120v single phase generator or other AC source is available?
In my case, the XW6048 specifies that it will not work with 120v only generators. What if 120v was all I had to work with?
Ideas?
Sean
P.S. Not knowing any better, my plan at the moment is to add a separate 120v charger to the battery bank for any times when 240 split might not be available.
Some of us have inverter/chargers which are designed for use with regular 120/240v split phase power input from the grid.
I am wondering how people go about things when only a small 120v single phase generator or other AC source is available?
In my case, the XW6048 specifies that it will not work with 120v only generators. What if 120v was all I had to work with?
Ideas?
Sean
P.S. Not knowing any better, my plan at the moment is to add a separate 120v charger to the battery bank for any times when 240 split might not be available.
Comments
http://www.solar-electric.com/catalo...sformers&cat=0
http://www.solar-electric.com/invert...nsiwainac.html
--I think (if I recall correctly--I have to head out right now).
-Bill
http://legacy.outbackpower.com/pdf/manuals/fw-x240.pdf
It is amazing all of the things they do with the transformer.
-Bill
I am available for custom hardware/firmware development
My own situation is that my installation is in an RV, and while many RV parks have 50amp 240v service, some do not, not to mention that I'd like to be able to charge from a regular 115v outlet in a pinch (or from my 2.3kw Honda portable).
The Honda is a backup to my diesel genset (240v split phase).
Again, I don't know if the XW6048 is using two legs of 115v to the neutral, or 240v across L1/L2 for it's charge source. The meters imply that it's 115v X 2 since there is no 230v meter per say, just L1 and L2 @ 115v.
I figured I'd get around this by purchasing an additional 115v-48vdc battery charger for those rare times when I don't have 240v available, but if an autotransformer will give me 240v split phase from 120v single, then I could theoretically power the 6048 from a small generator or someone's extension cord (yes, with a derating).
http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showthread.php?14777-Honda-EU2000-Transformer-Problem&highlight=transformer
"2.4.5 Wiring the AC Input and Output
The MS-PAE series provides 120/240VAC on the output, but the input may be wired either as a
120/240VAC input or a 120VAC input (to one input only) depending on your AC source. The AC output
will continue to produce 120/240VAC with either the 120/240VAC or 120VAC input configuration.
WARNING: DO NOT connect 120VAC (same phase) to both AC HOT 1 IN and AC HOT 2
IN inputs. These inputs must be 180° out-of-phase (i.e. 120/240VAC). If you only have a
120VAC source, you may connect to either the AC HOT 1 IN or AC HOT 2 IN, but NOT to
both or damage may occur." (Pg. 25 of teh Magnum Energy MS-PAE Manual, Magnum Energy.
Also, I have a 120v Yamaha EF2000is 120v only small-ish gas generator and will be utilizing it to charge the batteries. However, I do not have any 240v loads right now...but may in the future.
Let me ask this as a “what would you do?” question.
First, this is an RV and being mobile has to be able to accept multiple forms of energy input.
The question is addressing the times when only 120vac is available.
Secondly, I intend to “front end” this with a 12v to 120v inverter so that this 120vac can also be produced by the alternator of the engine (and the starter bank).
Thirdly, let’s just assume that the XW6048 requires split 120/240v input (I think it does).
Here are some options…
1. Purchase a separate 12vdc inverter in the 2kw range and install that as the vehicle system (as opposed to the separate “house* system).
Purchase a 120vac to 48vdc charger which autonomously charges the house bank. The vehicle inverter powers this charger. The XW6048 “sees” no AC input.
One particular model of inverter (Xantrex Prowatt 2000) has an ignition lockout which prevents the inverter from producing power (and hence draining the bank) when the engine isn’t running. As as accessory, there is a rudimentary transfer switch which can be purchased which is put inline with the inverter to automatically run from “shore power”.
You (I) would run this transfer switch to an external 115v shore power connection (meaning run an extension cord to a gas station’s 15a outlet, or to a small portable generator….etc.
So… the connection looks like this:
Alternator > starter bank > 120vac inverter > 120vac to 48vdc charger > House bank
When the 120v extension cord going to someone’s house or from the small generator is used, it looks like this because of the transfer switch:
120vac generator or shore > transfer switch > 120vac to 48vdc charger > House bank.
Fundamentally this should work, but of course bypasses all of the bells and whistles of the XW6048 (load sharing type stuff). It also may introduce anomalies from having multiple chargers in the system that aren’t accounted for by the Xanbus system.
Ok, on to # 2…
2. Run the same setup but replace the 120vac to 48vdc charger with a transformer who’s output is seen by the XW as “the grid”.
This looks like this:
Alternator > Prowatt 2000 > transformer > transfer switch between transformer power and actual 50amp 240v RV shore power > AC1 input to XW.
OR
120vac from generator or extension cord > Prowatt 2000 in bypass > transformer > transfer switch between transformer power and actual 50amp 240v RV shore power > AC1 input to XW.
Obviously the XW6048 would need it’s parameters set not to overload the ratings of what’s in front of it (i.e….derate the AC1 input current setting).
The advantage to this method is that the XW6048 is once again doing the charging if the prior electronics can both provide enough “umph” to get it going, and that they can provide the required 120v/240v split phase input to the XW.
In this case, the XW sees the input power as the grid and features like grid support are enabled where the XW can provide additional power from the bank to overcome startup loads the little 120v generator or 15a circuit can’t handle.
Of course this doesn’t work if the XW runs in “bypass” when it’s sees grid power. I think that might be part of how the grid support option functions?
For example, if you enable grid support the XW no longer bypasses but inverts all the time? Not sure about that.
That is probably the simplest and most straight forward.. And if something "breaks", you have backups and work arounds until you can fix the original problem.
Cost is an additional AC to DC conversion for extra battery charger (from AC power) instead of the "pass through" capabilities of the very nice Hybrid inverter system (call it 10-20% "extra" conversion losses).
The extra cost/losses of a transformer/weight of a transformer has its "own charms"... I am not sure I see a clear improvement over option one--Possibly a bit more efficient...
A very programmable AC to DC battery charger (the Xantrex TrueCharge 2 series looks very nice--the TC-1's were well liked--The TC-2's were very difficult to find for months/year+ after the planned introduction date--So I cannot really point to very many people here who have use them (a couple of posters--maybe?).
If your AC utility/generator power usage is a small part of your daily life (mostly dry camping)--I probably would not worry too much about the "extra conversion losses). The ability to make use of both 120 and 240 VAC power, utility/genset/vehicle power is probably well worth the costs.
If however, you do spend lots of time on utility (or generator power)--Then losses could be larger factor (something like $0.10 to $0.20 per kWH of generator fuel--As an example--Or 10-20% more utility kWH billed.
More or less as I understand the original XW Hybrid inverter (I am not a Xantrex/Schneider support person--take with a grain of salt)--The "as shipped" unit is really a 240 VAC (or 230 VAC 50 Hz) unit with split phase out put capabilties. It can/does use the neutral (from genset/utility power), but you cannot run as 120 single leg power.
There is the capability to change a couple of jumper inside the XW to put the split phase 120/240 VAC transformers into parallel for pure 120 VAC at 2x the current (same wattage)--And you have download a new 120 VAC only firmware package to the inverter.
If you never need 240 VAC, and can use lots of 120 VAC power--It may be "the way" to go. Not sure how many people (if any) are running 120 VAC XW configurations.
Note that some battery chargers (like the Xantrex TC-2) will run on anything from ~100 VAC to ~240 VAC 50/60 Hz--So from a battery charging perspective, it does give you a lot of options too (TC-2's are not that large of charger--The XW is much high current capabilities for charging--In general, as I recall)
-Bill
The "charms" of the transformer based system are that since the XW remains the primary charger, there is no electrical "crosstalk" or influence on the rest of the system (such as the MPPT60), and the charge profiles I set using the SCP remain in effect. All of the system's toys and meters would continue to work, and once I add a Conext Combox, I'd be able to monitor input from the portable/extension cord aspect of the input.
As mentioned, I would have to derate the charger depending on if I were using 15a, 30a, or 50a service and also set up additional cascading transfer switches.
Push come to shove, having an Iota (or other ) backup charger on standby in a addition is just a matter of the wallet. The 48v chargers run just shy of $400.... not sure what the proper transformer will cost in contrast. Since an RV can also take 30a 120v, I'd need a transformer sized to take advantage of that. When going 50a 240, it goes directly to the AC1 (no transformer).
The fact is that I didn't know transformers could create 120/240 split phase output (L1-N-L2) from 120v (L1-N). That's still a foreign concept to me that I'm trying to absorb, and I'm trying to find diagrams of one that actually shows that configuration because ultimately that would be a fancier solution.
In this manual:
http://legacy.outbackpower.com/pdf/manuals/fw-x240.pdf
Page 9 shows an auto transformer as a 120 VAC genset + 120/240 VAC split phase AC main power and a pair of "sync'd" or "stacked" inverters--Should work just fine with a 120/240 VAC XW hybrid inverter--Which is what (I think) you want to do.
A standard (isolated) transformer with input windings and separate output windings "Isolates" the input to output voltages. I.e., you can have different neutral bonding, floating input vs output voltages, local ground/neutral bonding, etc.
Auto transformers do not (necessarily) have isolated windings. For example, you can have 1/2 the windings on the 120 VAC input, (L1+Neutral) and the second winding sort "reversed" from the first winding share a common ground/neutral point, and the opposite terminal gives you a 180 degree out of phase 120 to neutral terminal (L2+Neutral). Auto transformers are typically smaller/lighter than full isolated transformers because the same winding is sort "shared" between input and output power (I am not really good at describing this--Sorry).
Note, you will see some transformer diagrams with a Dot next to a lead--That is so you can get the "correct phase relationship between input and outputs--Sort of like the +/- polarity of a battery bank.
Now--A draw back may be that a smaller Honda eu2000i (1,600 watt 120 VAC) type genset may not be able to drive the above Outback Auto-transformer--I don't know anything about. But I would take what BC04 says to heart.
-Bill
I was looking at that diagram earlier and wondering. Some stacked inverter arrangements I've seen require the twin inverters to achieve 120/240 split.
This .pdf has what I'm looking for http://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Datasheet-Autotransformer-32A-and-100A-EN.pdf Split phase: 120VAC to 120/240VAC , and yes, that's to go right into the AC1 of the 6048
I don't see any reason why a inverter/transformer/inverter setup wouldn't work with XW except for the inrush current.... which I suppose could be dealt with. The XW does allow you to limit the "ac breaker size", to which it will limit it's draw accordingly.
Thanks BC04. I don't have an inverter generator, but I am considering fronting this with an actual inverter so inrush might be an issue. I figure if it is, that I'll find a suitable soft-start on eBay to help it out. Yet another can of worms....and another..
|| Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
|| VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A
solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,
Good to hear from someone actually running an XW this way.
While not the most simple option, being able to power an XW (or other larger split phase inverter) from a 120vac source seems like an invaluable addition to the tool kit and it's a short jump from there to 12v.
I can see all sorts of possibilities to this route, and it will be interesting to see what it takes to get it to work when fronted by an inverter.
In my application I'd like to include the charging system of the truck as a power source... meaning that if had a long drive at night, the 48v house bank would be charged when I arrived (it's bad form to run a generator while going down the road although it is sometimes done).
To add to my kookiness, I should mention that the hydraulic systems on my rig are 230v 3Ph that I have adapted with phase converters (static) and VFD's. There are actually multiple 3ph systems in this truck that are being powered at the moment by the 6048. For the record, that is working without issues.
It's kind of fun to consider powering industrial motors via solar, or 12v alternator power.
When my house floors were being installed and finished, I noticed the batteries were getting lower every day (late summer, clear skies) Then I discovered the floor dude had pulled the panel off the breaker panel, and clipped his 3hp floor sander in, and was running off the 3Kw PV array & batteries. The contractors 5Kw genset could not run it, and they had to rent a trailer genset to run the sander. XW was happy as a clam sucking the batteries down all day.
|| Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
|| VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A
solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,
|| Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
|| VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A
solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,
the 2 series windings and I don't use the 480v winding set at all.
|| Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
|| VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A
solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,
http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/Hardware_Accessories/autotransformer/PSX-240_Relay_Manual.pdf
|| Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
|| VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A
solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,
Second system 1890W 3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.
5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
I run stacked VFXs in master/slave parallel for 7kw 120v out, and an autotransformer to run 240v pump. I assume yours are series stacked?
Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
Second system 1890W 3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.
5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.