Looking for someone who has Lithium Iron Phosphate battery systems knowledge

ajbelcherajbelcher Solar Expert Posts: 26 ✭✭
Looking for someone who has Lithium Iron Phosphate battery systems knowledge - I have some questions regarding the charge controllers which have been built in to some systems I came across - From looking at them they appear to be hooked up in series of 40 batteries for 144 volts per layer and there are 4 layers each charge controller board controls 8 batteries per layer so there are 5 boards per layer - wondering if the layers could be split to give me 48v - I have pictures will pm them if you contact me -

Comments

  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,319 admin
    Sounds like an opportunity for folks that want to get into LiFePO4 batteries without spending an arm and a leg.

    Let us know how this works out.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • ajbelcherajbelcher Solar Expert Posts: 26 ✭✭
    Looks like it should be able to be turned into 10 160ah 48v strings if anybody has some insight as to how the charge controllers work - as LiFePO4 batteries are not the usual batteries I deal with - and anyone interested and has information that is helpful Id be happy to make some available at a great price - these are all new sealed setups never installed before the company went under
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Al, to start off what brand are they?

    LiFePo4 batteries are ~ 3.25V per cell, vs AGMs at 2V so 8 cells for 24V, etc

    here is one example should give you some basic info

    18 Kwhr Energy Storage System - Lithium batteries 24 Volts connected in series. Pack Voltage Nominal 24 VDC; Pack Voltage Peak 32 VDC; Cycle life 3000 Cycles; Five year prorated warranty. Includes Battery Management system, cell monitoring of temperature and voltage control. Includes fuse and contactor [ battery disconnect]. Works seamlessly with most leading solar charge controllers and inverters. Max Charge voltage not to exceed 28.8 VDC. Cell balancing at .75 amps.
    • Nominal Capacity : 18 Kwhr
    • Battery Type : Lithium Iron Phosphate
    • Battery Voltage : 24 Volt DC
    • Operating Voltage: 24 Vdc to 30 Vdc
    • Cycle Life 3000 Cycles
    • Charge Voltage: 28.0 Vdc Bulk Charge | 28.8 Vdc Absorption Charge | 26.5 Vdc Float Charge
    • Discharge Voltage: 24 Vdc Max
    • Max Discharge Current : 350 amps at 80% DOD | 500 Amps at 50% DOD
    • Max Charge Current : 300 Amps
    • Operating Temperature -45 deg C to 65 Deg C
    • Warranty : 5 Years Prorated
    • Dimensions : 27.5 X 25.6 X 15.35 inches ( L X W X H)
    • Weight: 450 lbs
    hth
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • ajbelcherajbelcher Solar Expert Posts: 26 ✭✭
    My biggest question remaining is the circuit boards which I believe are charge controller/cell balancing controllers - each set of 8 batteries has a wire that goes to the positive and negative terminal of each battery that goes to a parallel port on the board - to the best of my understanding this should be used to balance the charge between the cells it is hooked up to - currently there are 40 batteries hooked up in series on each layer then the 4 layers are hooked up in parallel - if we were to change it to 16 batteries in series and 10 of those cells in parallel will the balancers still work or are they only designed to work at the voltage that the batteries were in the original set up
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,319 admin
    What brand/model of balancers are you looking at?

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Blackcherry04Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    So, if you have 40 @ 3.2 v cells you'll have 10 batteries @ 12 v , and 160 amps hrs each. If your doing 48 V it's going to take 4 of your 12v batteries per string with 2 left over.
  • Blackcherry04Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    ajbelcher wrote: »
    The standard for these batteries is 8 batteries to make a 24v "cell" in other applications these are 160 batteries in 4 strings of 40 in parallel -The plan is to change this to 10 strings for 51.2 volts well within confines to a standard "48v" string for charging and inverting purposes

    the balancers are built in to the case that holds all 160 batteries - attached pictures

    Thats doable, first I saw 160 batteries mentioned. 2 strings would make a nice bank.
  • ajbelcherajbelcher Solar Expert Posts: 26 ✭✭
    Thinking most wont need more than one due to the much higher acceptable depth of discharge on LiFePO4 one bank as pictured above should be the equivalent of 2-3 strings of 48v 1600ah lead acid or am i missing something in thinking that - I know you get as many as 8000 cycles if you dont discharge past a certain point and are rated for 3000 cycles at full discharge - we will be trying hooking one up to a system in the next few weeks - after which if all goes well I have a few extras available
  • Blackcherry04Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    ajbelcher wrote: »
    Thinking most wont need more than one due to the much higher acceptable depth of discharge on LiFePO4 one bank as pictured above should be the equivalent of 2-3 strings of 48v 1600ah lead acid or am i missing something in thinking that - I know you get as many as 8000 cycles if you dont discharge past a certain point and are rated for 3000 cycles at full discharge - we will be trying hooking one up to a system in the next few weeks - after which if all goes well I have a few extras available
    One string of 16 cells is only 160 amp hrs @ 48 v.
  • ajbelcherajbelcher Solar Expert Posts: 26 ✭✭
    I meant the entire case which has 10 strings of 16 cells for 48v at 1600ah
  • Blackcherry04Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    ajbelcher wrote: »
    I meant the entire case which has 10 strings of 16 cells for 48v at 1600ah
    Yeah, that would be huge bank. I am not in to them, but it would be nice for someone that was. The BMS is hard to know , usually the controller is set to the pack voltage and the cell boards are 3.2 v and operate individually on the cheap systems and report to the BMS, but who knows on that one.
  • ajbelcherajbelcher Solar Expert Posts: 26 ✭✭
    I guess we will find out when we hook them up - original wholesale price on the bank was 50,000 were designed to go into a solar co op housing development that never materialized - so i have access to a bunch of them at a fraction of the original cost - and a list of people interested if we can get them working in a system
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    I was wondering if they used each layer which would be a ~120V set
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • Blackcherry04Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    ajbelcher wrote: »
    I guess we will find out when we hook them up - original wholesale price on the bank was 50,000 were designed to go into a solar co op housing development that never materialized - so i have access to a bunch of them at a fraction of the original cost - and a list of people interested if we can get them working in a system
    One thing about those is the cells are large enough to have lot's of amp hrs without having a gillion connections. Just the cells alone would be in the $30,000 range and that whole setup reeks of quality.

    Post back and let us know how it goes.
  • ajbelcherajbelcher Solar Expert Posts: 26 ✭✭
    that is my original guess if by design 120vdc to 120vac is not a difficult conversion but with most solar people on 48v 0r 24v systems trying to figure out if they can simply be reconfigured to put in those applications
  • Blackcherry04Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    ajbelcher wrote: »
    that is my original guess if by design 120vdc to 120vac is not a difficult conversion but with most solar people on 48v 0r 24v systems trying to figure out if they can simply be reconfigured to put in those applications
    They can be used, not a doubt. You just have to decide how you want to sell them and what quantities.
  • ajbelcherajbelcher Solar Expert Posts: 26 ✭✭
    If we can get them working they definitely would be an impressive bank - well designed in a nice neat package - retail was to be int the $70,000 range - am hoping it works in which case i might be splitting a few banks for those who do not need that much power - and cost would be half what the batteries alone would cost you - this will be a one time deal have a limited number available and plenty of interest if I can show one working in a system - and a whole lot easier than trying to get equivalent lead acids into a space as the whole thing weighs 2000# a whole lot less than 13,000# for two 1600ah 48v lead acid strings and should outlast them by many years
  • eric1565eric1565 Registered Users Posts: 4
    Can anybody give me names of inverters that work with Lithium Ion batteries? I have some tesla modules (22.2V Nominal, and they swing from 15V dead to 25.2 volts, but all the inverters I have seen only work with Pb voltages. I am also going to have solar cells, and I also want the inverter to charge the batteries when usage is low. Each module is about 5.3 KwH. Any ideas on MFG's that will work? I don't know what voltage I will run, but I have about 12 modules, so I can do a different voltages to optomize the set up. Never done this before, any help would be appreciated.
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭

    welcome, I think the only way, with those voltages, you can use them is with a 24 volt inverter and set your BMS LVD to kick in before you get to the lower 'knee'. OR rearrange the cells to fit into 'normal ' inverter set points.. either 12 or 24V or ? They are just a bit too odd to make work without a lot of fiddling, IMO...
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,511 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Exactly, you are starting just below the 24V inverter ranges, and not much is going to help. If you get another pack, the XW series manages about 45-67V range, that's what I'm doing with my NiFe pack
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,319 admin
    You might try contacting our host Northern Arizona Wind & Sun and check with them:

    http://www.solar-electric.com/inverters-controllers-accessories/inverters/exsiwain.html

    Exeltech are a high quality inverter and it seems like they may be able to do some semi-custom configurations.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • eric1565eric1565 Registered Users Posts: 4
    BB. wrote: »
    You might try contacting our host Northern Arizona Wind & Sun and check with them:

    http://www.solar-electric.com/inverters-controllers-accessories/inverters/exsiwain.html

    Exeltech are a high quality inverter and it seems like they may be able to do some semi-custom configurations.

    -Bill
    Thanks. We can run the modules in series to get different voltages;

    e.g. we can use:

    17.4 min voltage, 24.9 max voltage

    34.8 min voltage, 49.8 max voltage

    52.2 min voltage, 74.7 max voltage

    69.6 min voltage, 99.6 max voltage

    It would be ideal to be able to adjust min and max voltage, and perhaps max charging current.

    Also needs to have lithium ion charging profile, which is super simple - CC/CV. Just don't want to charge them like lead acid.
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Charging those cells is no problem as the CC can handle the output range needed by those cells. The problem remains, and it is getting the power out of them in a voltage range that the inverter will handle be it a 'nominal' 12/24/48 volt system you decide on using. Yes?

    I just looked at Cotek power supplies but the only go to 500W, BUT they have a 15V model http://www.cotek.com.tw/pro371680.html, you might want to contact them...
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • eric1565eric1565 Registered Users Posts: 4
    westbranch wrote: »
    Charging those cells is no problem as the CC can handle the output range needed by those cells. The problem remains, and it is getting the power out of them in a voltage range that the inverter will handle be it a 'nominal' 12/24/48 volt system you decide on using. Yes?

    I just looked at Cotek power supplies but the only go to 500W, BUT they have a 15V model http://www.cotek.com.tw/pro371680.html, you might want to contact them...

    See my ideal voltage ranges above. They are slightly flexible, of course.
    Don't need to go all the way to 15V per module, 18V would be just fine. (or 36V, 54V, etc)


    \edit: made a new thread here. sorry for hijack.
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