Trying to get away from extension cords

Wxboy

I purchased an Outback Radian GS4048A a few months back and I am getting ready to upgrade my setup so I can run power through the house wiring instead of using extension cords. I am on grid and doing this strictly to take advantage of whatever power I have coming in. It looks like the Radian has several programs where I can set it up to take advantage of excess battery power and switch back and forth from inverting to passing power through and even merging the two power sources together at times so I am looking forward to that.

My question is what components to buy next. Currently I have the inverter, a charge controller(Midnite Classic), a small breaker box with the PV breaker, and battery to CC breaker, and batteries and panels.

I am going to get an electrician in to tie into the house wiring but I don't know if I should buy a Reliance transfer switch with the desired number of breakers or if there is a better way. I don't have a GS load center or a Midnite E-panel and I'm not really sure what the advantages are for those. It looks like they have a DC breaker which I don't currently have and I could get rid of my small breaker box and move those to the E-panel or GS load center but they are very expensive. Do those panels also house AC load breakers to take the place of the manual transfer switch?

Cariboocoot

Re: Trying to get away from extension cords

Your Radian has a transfer switch built in. Or more correctly has a bi-directional AC connection. This is because it is meant to be used as a grid-tied inverter; maintaining batteries in a charged state until utility power fails and 'selling' surplus PV production to the grid/household loads.

This would be the best way to utilize it, but it requires a connection agreement with your utility.

If you want to avoid selling to the grid I believe you can turn 'SELL' off, but you will not get full advantage that way.

It sounds like you are interested in using it as an off-grid inverter and making use of utility power as your "generator" if needed (due to low battery). This is not a very economical thing to do. Nor is it simple to set up.

As-is the Radian will sense utility power on its AC IN connection and use it to power loads and maintain batteries. if 'SELL' is on it will output power to the household/grid through this connection if the PV is able to maintain the batteries at the selected level and provide power above that point.

If 'SELL' is off the batteries are maintained by either charge source (PV or grid) but no power is provided from the PV for loads; everything is in standby until grid power fails, then loads connected to the AC OUT will be powered by the batteries via the inverter.

What you need to make everything run off the inverter & PV until batteries are too low and utility power is needed is an "automatic generator start" circuit which is triggered by low Voltage and connects the utility power to AC IN. It can be done, but requires some study of the wiring diagrams and a proper relay to connect the utility power as needed.

A standard generator auto-detect transfer switch can be used, but it would not be seamless as it relies on a loss of AC Voltage to trigger its change-over.

BTW transfer switches and breakers are not the same thing. Switches provide no over-current protection, and breakers are single-throw. You can use two breakers to provide the transfer, but there needs to be a mechanical lock-out tor prevent both power sources from being active at the same time.

Wxboy

Re: Trying to get away from extension cords

Cariboocoot I agree that to get the most out of the system I should be grid tied(connected to the utility) but I am taking it one step at a time. I think my system is too small to warrant that at this point so another year or two down the road I'll be ready to go that route. For now I just want to use excess power when available.

I may be out in the left field here but I believe when the Radian is set up with AC coming in and sell turned off it can invert or pass through power to a subpanel when using various settings like grid zero. And in some cases merge the two power sources together by telling it to only invert a certain amount of power and have the AC in provide the rest. I don't fully understand all of it and probably won't until it's hooked up but it seems to be a pretty flexible unit.

The Reliance manual transfer switches have breakers on them which are connected to breakers/circuits in the main panel. When you have a breaker up or "on" in the reliance panel it cuts off power coming from the utility to that circuit. Then power would be coming from the inverter which could actually be power made by the inverter or AC power passed through the inverter if the batteries get low or hit various other trigger points that can be set like maximum load.

I'm sure I'm not explaining this properly but I'm pretty sure I'm on the right track here. Maybe I'm not but that's what I'm asking questions before I spend more money and find out it isn't going to work the way I envisioned it. Outback tells me this can be done I'm just not sure of the best hardware setup to make it all happen.

gww1

Re: Trying to get away from extension cords

I agree with coot on grid tie being the most econonic way to go.

I believe the outback load panels ac and dc are the easiest to hook up cause at least on mine the wiring diagram is on the front cover. I don't know if the load panel is simular to what I have with my gvfx, but believe it probly is. You are right they are expensive, but I bought a 60 amp generator transfer switch that cost me $400. I didn't even need it cause I already had the outback which did the same thing. Also looking at both of them they would be pretty easy to make.
You would have to have access to one if you were to try to make one though.

If you have the out back sub-panel and want to run loads at a distance from the inverter you just run a line from a properly sized fuse in the box to another sub-panel some place else. I have the inverter in my garage and a load center in my house.

I don't know if the radian has HBX like my inverter but if it does it is just programing set points that makes it work.

I do think that your wear and tear and losses from charging and discharging you batteries is not nearly as good as selling to the grid. This is really true if you say you are going to have the work done. Have it done to the electic companies satisfaction and you will be able to cut out numorous losses meanning you will make much more usable power.
Hope this makes sence.
gww

PS the ouback by pass breaker seems to be nothing but a normal breaker and an upside down breaker with a bar on the front that keeps you from having both breakerw on at the same time.

Photowhit

Re: Trying to get away from extension cords

Your signature line needs help!

If you truly have a 800 watt array and a 600 ah battery (at 48Volt?) you need the grid to charge up your backup power... Also might just sell off the small battery bank as it will likely just be a pain to keep both maintained.

gww1

Re: Trying to get away from extension cords

I didn't see your post cause I was typing. If you go with the out back load center don't also buy the reliance. I would think if you buy the reliance it could be made to work. The inverter will do all the switching from grid to inverter. The only reason you need a bypass/transfer switch is if you need to work on the inverter and don't want to do so without power going to your loads.

gww

Cariboocoot

Re: Trying to get away from extension cords

If you have enough battery for the inverter (400 Amp hours @ 48 Volts) and enough PV to keep it charged (>2500 Watts 4kW would be better yet) you have enough to do the grid-tie install and save yourself buying additional equipment and having to wire it twice. If not, you will be throwing away more money when you go to upgrade battery bank & PV to make the GT install possible.

I'm not sure how extensive the Radian programming is because no one around here is rich enough to afford one (and there's no point to GT installs here either; complete waste of money). But it really sounds like no additional hardware would be required, certainly not any extra transfer switch. Although you may want a sub panel powered by the inverter and possibly a way to bypass the inverter completely if something goes wrong (this is really pretty easy to hardwire around should the need arise).

I'm sorry I have trouble explaining wiring because I don't have to think about how to do it. Trying to tell someone else how becomes a battle to use the right words.

Wxboy

Re: Trying to get away from extension cords

Photowhit wrote: »

Your signature line needs help!

If you truly have a 800 watt array and a 600 ah battery (at 48Volt?) you need the grid to charge up your backup power... Also might just sell off the small battery bank as it will likely just be a pain to keep both maintained.

You are correct. I need to update my signature line. I have 200 amp hours at 48 volts. Even for that I'm light on panels but I'll be doubling my solar power this winter.

zoneblue

Re: Trying to get away from extension cords

the radian has a mode called grid zero, which i gather allows it to only draw on the grid when the bank is low. It also several other modes, making it pretty fleixible for these types of setups. One thing it doenst do well is ac coupling.

Wxboy

Re: Trying to get away from extension cords

zoneblue wrote: »

the radian has a mode called grid zero, which i gather allows it to only draw on the grid when the bank is low. It also several other modes, making it pretty fleixible for these types of setups. One thing it doenst do well is ac coupling.

Grid Zero mode is what I plan to use once I get it hooked up. What do you mean by AC coupling?

Cariboocoot

Re: Trying to get away from extension cords

Wxboy wrote: »

Grid Zero mode is what I plan to use once I get it hooked up. What do you mean by AC coupling?

Back feeding the inverter from another (standard) grid-tie inverter. The Radian is not meant to do this, nor is the GVFX. However some report that both can.

The best inverter for this is the Sunny Island, especially when used with the Sunny Boy GT inverter(s).

Blackcherry04

Re: Trying to get away from extension cords

It's probably not something your going to do ( AC Coupling ) but there is a solution. I understand it will work with the GVFX also. I have 8.2 kw of GT, It would work for me, but I can't afford it.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CDoQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.outbackpower.com%2Fdownloads%2Fdocuments%2FOB_072013_FLEXcoupled_SpecSheet.pdf&ei=GYNBVJmrEor3yQSb-oGYCQ&usg=AFQjCNGXla0TI37_FesOG6IUr1wGAAUVXQ&bvm=bv.77648437,d.aWw&cad=rja

gww1

Re: Trying to get away from extension cords

Just to explaine ac coupling with a radian.

http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/flexcoupled/app_note_acc_new.pdf

Cheers
gww