Filter Question

Steven Lake

Hey again everyone! I know you guys have some incredible knowledge and experience about stuff like this, I thought to pose this question to you. Since my ultimate goal is to take our house completely off grid (to get away from this horribly unreliable electricity among other reasons), one of my steps in that quest is to move our water to an off grid configuration. Part of that includes using a solar water pump to lift the water out of a spring we have on the property and send up to a large cistern on a nearby hill. (note: this isn't built yet. It's only a plan at this point) The catch is, even though the spring tests clean, I'd like to filter the water from it before it hits the house. Yes, I probably sound a bit paranoid in that respect, but I also don't feel 100% confident on its cleanliness. On top of that, all it takes is one animal pooping near your spring to ruin the party. I at least learned that much from taking a state certified sanitation safety class. o_0;;

Anyhow, I know some of you run filtration on your water supplies so I'm wondering what steps or parts or systems or whatever you use to filter your water. I'm looking at a three stage system at this point with one 10 micron filter for sand and dirt, a 2 micron for the creepy crawlies in the water (bacteria, amoebas, Guardia, etc), and then something like an Aquarain or a Berkey filter system with a 0.2 micron for viruses and the like that would be used to filter drinking water. I considered a 0.2 inline for the whole house, but since it kills too much of the water pressure (and clogs too quickly), I'm leaning towards just two stages for initial inflow, then anything we drink that doesn't get boiled goes through the Berkey or Aquarain.

I also understand I may want to put a 0.2 micron filter on the kitchen since since that water will be coming in contact with food (washing vegetables for example) and plateware. What's your thoughts on this? Or am I barking completely up the wrong tree on this? Sure, I could sink a well and use a solar powered well pump and just completely get around the whole spring problem, but it's about 1/5th the cost, including the tank and all parts (and expansions to our planned solar power system to handle the extra load), to do the solar pumped spring than a solar well. Hence why I'm taking this route. Anyhow, as always your suggestions are more than welcome.

(mods, I wasn't sure where this kind of question would go, so I tossed it here. if it should go elsewhere, please feel free to move it. Thanks!)

BB.

Re: Filter Question

I moved you post to water pumping--Seemed a better fit--But no big deal either way.

Have you thought of an Ozone system for disinfection?

-Bill

ILFE

Re: Filter Question

Steven Lake wrote: »

The catch is, even though the spring tests clean, I'd like to filter the water from it before it hits the house.

Are you saying the water was properly tested?

DanS26

Re: Filter Question

I had some of the same issues as you. Surface water was contaminating my two shallow wells (each about 20' deep).

I boiled water for a while then decided a better solution had to be available. I investigated chlorination systems, evaporation systems and finally decided on a reverse osmosis system. The RO does not work on household water pressure, it has it own 1/4 HP high pressure pump. I ran separate 3/8" plastic water lines to kitchen and bathrooms for cooking and drinking purposes only. Thus the amount of RO product is significantly decreased and since using high pressure the pump running time is reduced. The remainder of the house is plumbed in the normal method and uses unfiltered water directly from the wells.

Installed the RO system in 1995 and has been running great. I change the RO filter once every 5 years whether it needs it or not. The sediment 5 micron filter is changed every six months and the charcoal filter is changed each year.

Blackcherry04

Re: Filter Question

I'll second what DanS26 said about separating your water after the cistern. I treat surface Lake water with a Custom built RO system with 4 membranes, it'll treat 400 gal a day. The membranes have gotten so cheap ( 100 gpd for $25 on ebay ) that you can add as many housings as you want to meet your demand. I also use a UV light system to post treat the RO in case that some could be bypassing. You only need charcoal filters if you have a taste, smell or any chlorine that will contaminate and destroy the membranes, but you have to pre-filter it down anyway.

On the pump intake I like to use bag filters ( 8" x 30", 10 micron ) without the housing and line it with a mesh sleeve ( Stainless Steel or Plastic ) to hold it open and allow the water to flow into it and drop the intake into it. Pumps are cheap, less than $100 you can get a 5.5 gpm and 80 psi. Don't buy small filters, I find the 4" x 10" are about right for what I do.

Dave Angelini

Re: Filter Question

I had a similar customer and we fenced the area near the spring and UV the drinking water. Pretty simple and safe. If you have been drinking the water you probably will not ever get sick. It is the same when going to new areas when you travel. You acclimate over time and after a month or so you can drink just about anything within reason.

Cariboocoot

Re: Filter Question

Get the water tested.

We pull from the lake. Surrounded by deer, moose, bear, et cetera. It has never registered high in E. Coli or anything else. It is tested every year.

There is a 5 micron sediment filter on the line and a ceramic cartridge 'drinking' filter tap that will remove just about anything you can think of and a lot of things you probably wouldn't.

Steven Lake

Re: Filter Question

BB. wrote: »

I moved you post to water pumping--Seemed a better fit--But no big deal either way.

Have you thought of an Ozone system for disinfection?

-Bill

Thanks. I wasn't sure if it belonged here, so I just tossed out the option to move it if it fit better elsewhere. Apparently it did. lol. As for the ozone system, I'm completely unfamiliar with those kinds of systems. What benefit do they have, and how much load are they on a solar power system? I'm already counting my watt hours as pulling everything down as tight as I can and we're right on the limit of the 1600w we've got planned right now. If it won't be a huge impact I could probably figure it into our loads.

ILFE wrote: »

Are you saying the water was properly tested?

Yeah, I'm hugely paranoid about water borne illnesses (re: sanitation classes) so we took a sample and had it lab tested. They said it's, and I quote, "Within allowable tolerances for human consumption." Ie, clean. I think anyhow.

DanS26 wrote: »

I had some of the same issues as you. Surface water was contaminating my two shallow wells (each about 20' deep).

I boiled water for a while then decided a better solution had to be available. I investigated chlorination systems, evaporation systems and finally decided on a reverse osmosis system. The RO does not work on household water pressure, it has it own 1/4 HP high pressure pump. I ran separate 3/8" plastic water lines to kitchen and bathrooms for cooking and drinking purposes only. Thus the amount of RO product is significantly decreased and since using high pressure the pump running time is reduced. The remainder of the house is plumbed in the normal method and uses unfiltered water directly from the wells.

Installed the RO system in 1995 and has been running great. I change the RO filter once every 5 years whether it needs it or not. The sediment 5 micron filter is changed every six months and the charcoal filter is changed each year.

Interesting. I hadn't thought of installing a system like that. So reverse osmosis is pretty efficient and reliable? Hmm, might have to research that as I've always been of the old school mindset of "slap a filter cartridge on it" solution. Probably got that mindset from all the visits by the Culligan man. lol.

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Get the water tested.

We pull from the lake. Surrounded by deer, moose, bear, et cetera. It has never registered high in E. Coli or anything else. It is tested every year.

There is a 5 micron sediment filter on the line and a ceramic cartridge 'drinking' filter tap that will remove just about anything you can think of and a lot of things you probably wouldn't.

Thanks, I'll look into that too. Lots of good ideas here for filtering things down and being power efficient too. I think the biggest thing with this transition has been having to completely rethink your lifestyle. It's sorta like the show "Life Below Zero" instead it's "Life After Mains" where resources are limited and you can't just go around doing things willy nilly like you used to.

ILFE

Re: Filter Question

If the water was properly tested and it is fine for human consumption, trust me, you are good. Anything you spend from here forward, is just to ease your concern over the water cleanliness.

You do not need reverse osmosis. If you are totally off-grid, you are talking about even more power usage that isn't necessary, when cheaper, less power hungry options are available.

I would, at worst, put inline strainer to catch large particles (50 mesh, for example), and then 10 and 5 micron filters and a low voltage DC UV light. (Add the light only if you are too paranoid. But, you really do not need to go that far.) That will keep ANYTHING that would concern you from continuing on through your water supply. Trust me, I regularly drink (city provided) water that has a heck of a lot more impurities in it than you will ever see in your pond water.

Take a look at the video below, for example. (Note, he is filtering rain water)
http://youtu.be/llI8nR_r3KM?t=2m39s

Afterthought: Have you considered rainwater harvesting as an option? It provides 100% of our water needs at our farm here.

Cariboocoot

Re: Filter Question

BTW, at the old house the well standpipe wasn't capped. A couple of racoons climbed down it looking for water. They couldn't climb back out. E. Coli and every other kind of bacteria went sky high. Water stank. No one died or even got sick, though.

I did have an interesting time pulling the remains of the bodies out and sanitizing the well though. (Needless to say I capped the well properly too.)

Blackcherry04

Re: Filter Question

ILFE wrote: »

You do not need reverse osmosis. If you are totally off-grid, you are talking about even more power usage that isn't necessary, when cheaper, less power hungry options are available.

Tell us all about those less power hungry options. What makes you think that RO is power Hungry ?? 45-50 psi is more than sufficient for RO, I run everything off one 12 V Aqutec 5 gpm pump , 2 baths, kitchen and laundry. The toilets I flush off a separate system with untreated water.

DanS26

Re: Filter Question

A pic is worth a thousand words....here is my RO System...operating flawlessly for 24 years.

Yes, BlackCherry that is a UV system attached...we must think alike.

ILFE

Re: Filter Question

Blackcherry04 wrote: »

Tell us all about those less power hungry options. What makes you think that RO is power Hungry ?? 45-50 psi is more than sufficient for RO, I run everything off one 12 V Aqutec 5 gpm pump , 2 baths, kitchen and laundry. The toilets I flush off a separate system with untreated water.

The filtering system I suggested uses no additional power, unless he chooses to go with UV. He will only have to wire in one pump to push the water to the cistern.

DanS26

Re: Filter Question

My little twist to the system is that I wired the UV to only turn on when the RO pump is running....less power but same results.

Most can't see this, but I also wired the system to a LED light system that illuminates in the kitchen when the RO pump is running. Just to keep my eye on things.

Blackcherry04

Re: Filter Question

ILFE wrote: »

The filtering system I suggested uses no additional power, unless he chooses to go with UV. He will only have to wire in one pump to push the water to the cistern.

Well, thats correct if he plans to gravity flow the house, but he didn't say that.

BB.

Re: Filter Question

If you guys would like to share brand/links/etc, that would be fine.

-Bill

ILFE

Re: Filter Question

Blackcherry04 wrote: »

Well, thats correct if he plans to gravity flow the house, but he didn't say that.

He didn't clarify either way, actually. I am going by what I read from his original post. He mentioned to a nearby hill. So, there is a possibility of gravity feeding it to the house.

Either way, you offered your advice and I offered mine.

Blackcherry04

Re: Filter Question

ILFE wrote: »

He didn't clarify either way, actually. I am going by what I read from his original post. He mentioned to a nearby hill. So, there is a possibility of gravity feeding it to the house.

Either way, you offered your advice and I offered mine.

True, but your talking about peoples health and you have no idea if he tests his water supply today, what it's quality will be tomorrow ( " If the water was properly tested and it is fine for human consumption trust me, you are good " ).

DanS26

Re: Filter Question

BB. wrote: »

If you guys would like to share brand/links/etc, that would be fine.

-Bill

Well, 24 years ago I purchased A Reo-Pure RO system from Great Lakes Intl. It was a 25 gallon per day system. I thought I was in hog heaven. I solved the problem of agricultural chemicals in my family's water supply. My shallow 20' wells were contaminated with herbicides and pesticides that are endemic in Indiana farm country.

If you are a well water user (or even a municipal supply using surface water), then you need to test your water....no matter how many statements to the opposite that your water is safe from local officials. If your test fails safe water standards or only minimally complies then you need to do something.

There is a reason that the Ohio river basin is called the "cancer alley".

ILFE

Re: Filter Question

Blackcherry04 wrote: »

True, but your talking about peoples health and you have no idea if he tests his water supply today, what it's quality will be tomorrow ( " If the water was properly tested and it is fine for human consumption trust me, you are good " ).

Yes, I am talking about general human health. The water supply will not change that significantly, in such a short period of time, unless someone willingly does something to the water supply. It is all part of the eco system.

A person's body needs to build up certain immunities. That is part of what keeps us healthy. You should see where some third world children swim - places you and I would NEVER consider swimming. Yet, they never get sick.

I'm not saying go out and start drinking sewer water. But, to drink water from a pond using basic filtering as I have mentioned, will be fine.

ILFE

Re: Filter Question

DanS26 wrote: »

There is a reason that the Ohio river basin is called the "cancer alley".

They can relate, here in Cambodia. There are some areas of the country, where naturally occurring Arsenic is in the ground water. Yet, many people, too poor to get water elsewhere, still drink it. Arsenic does horrible things to a human body, over time.

Blackcherry04

Re: Filter Question

Before anyone tries to use a 5 Micron filter as the finial filter for drinking water as suggested, you should read this and understand it.

http://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/drinking/travel/household_water_treatment.html

ILFE

Re: Filter Question

Brother, you are down right paranoid about drinking water, aren't you? Attachment not found. I would never travel outside your own country, especially to a third world location, then.

I have been living in and drinking water from three different countries, for almost 15 years. I assure you, I am as healthy as a horse. But, knock yourself out.

Either way, I'm done with this thread.

waynefromnscanada

Re: Filter Question

ILFE wrote: »

Brother, you are down right paranoid about drinking water, aren't you? Either way, I'm done with this thread.

I have to agree. Heading for 70 years old, walk 9 Km almost daily, lived my whole life on various shallow wells and for a time, one drilled well. Now for the last 20 years, spring water. None of these supplies were filtered in any way (except for a filter to remove sand from the drilled well, sand that without filtering ruined washing machine and flush valves)
Living on these same untreated wells, my Great grandmother lived to 98, my grandmother to 88, my mother to 94, none of them died from any water supply related problems and were healthy to the end. But then they didn't smoke or drink booze. Oh, and my Uncle is over 90 and still going strong.

Blackcherry04

Re: Filter Question

I wouldn't call myself paranoid, but I do know the difference between Filtration and Disinfection of drinking water. I know the difference in Chlorination, Ozonenation and UV and contact and linger time. I know that UV effectiveness is dependent on suspended particulate size and strength and exposure time. If anyone chooses to expose themselves and their family to a level they are comfortable with, go for it, no skin off my nose if they drink from a mud puddle.

Dave Angelini

Re: Filter Question

Can one filter or treat the alcohol? I would like to live longer than Frank Sinatra. His old saying about feeling sorry for those who did not have a cocktail or two,
when they get up in the morning, it is the best they will feel all day.

mike95490

Re: Filter Question

First, a question about the DC UV lamps. And then my filtering solution

1) Any brand/model of the DC UV light kit ? Is it LED or flur tube ? What I hear is that fluorescent tubes need about a 5 minute warm up to come to rated effectiveness.

2) My filter : I pump from a pond, a use a 160 mesh disc filter to strain out fish and frog parts, to 12,000 gallons of elevated tank storage. Then my drinking water goes through a gravity fed. flow regulated, slow sand filter, at about 5GPM, into a storage tank with an ozone bubbler in it (uses a UV light and air pump to blow bubbles in the tank) The water tests clean from the slow sand filter, the ozone just keeps the stored 1,500 gallons fresh.

Slow Sand filter (can be easily done in a 50gal plastic barrel) : http://www.cdc.gov/safewater/sand-filtration.html &
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slow_sand_filter & http://www.slowsandfilter.org/index.html
Slow Sand uses an active biolayer ( Schmutzdecke ) to "eat" everything, leaving clean water to drain out of it.

Flow meter: https://www.grainger.com/product/KEY-INSTRUMENTS-Water-Meter-5P350?cm_sp=IO-_-IDP-_-RR_VTV70300505&cm_vc=IDPRRZ1

Steven Lake

Re: Filter Question

ILFE wrote: »

Afterthought: Have you considered rainwater harvesting as an option? It provides 100% of our water needs at our farm here.

Yeah, I looked at it, but the problem I kept hitting against is that you can't use them here in the winter due to how crazy cold it gets around here, sometimes -20f or more. I know that from experience as we already run a few rainwater harvesting systems around here, including at my dad's farm. Every fall we have to drain it lest it explode the tanks when the water in them freezes, and tank heaters are sorta useless in the fact that they draw too much energy just to keep the water thawed.

Blackcherry04 wrote: »

Well, thats correct if he plans to gravity flow the house, but he didn't say that.

Actually, I do plan to have a water pump in the system, but that was there mostly because I figured I'd need a little pressure boost in order to pass the water through the filters and have enough residual pressure on the other side to be useful.

Blackcherry04 wrote: »

True, but your talking about peoples health and you have no idea if he tests his water supply today, what it's quality will be tomorrow ( " If the water was properly tested and it is fine for human consumption trust me, you are good " ).

Agreed. That's one of the things I learned in my sanitation class is that what's clean today may not be tomorrow, so it's better to be overly paranoid than under prepared and sick. :P And yes, some people live their whole lives on unfiltered water and live to a ripe old age. I've also seen people die of drinking "clean" water that had only a "few" contaminants in it. I guess it depends on the person and the area, but I'm still gonna err on the side of caution. :P

BB.

Re: Filter Question

Since you are going to have a cistern... I always like the idea of treating water there (chlorine, ozone) vs at the point of use (UV). Both really need good mechanical filtering on the water as it enters the tank (disinfectants don't work on "cloudy/dirty" water).

Chlorine is cheap and pretty effective... Is that something you would consider (taste, some folks are concerned about drinking/cooking with chlorine, and some water chemistries have issues with chlorine--PH ranges, smells minerals in water, etc.--As I understand).

A similar discussion from 3 years ago:

Keeping water fresh

-Bill

Steven Lake

Re: Filter Question

Well, I've considered the idea of treating it at the cistern, but as one of the guys pointed out, you can repipe your house to allow the unfiltered (or lightly filtered) water through 90% of the house and leave the final paranoid scale stuff for just the areas where water touches mouth, and leave the unfiltered for things like toilets, laundry, etc. Although, the reverse osmosis idea may actually be even better as it'll solve a ton of issues (like the chemicals, which is good, given that this is farm territory where Monsanto Roundup is king) and I won't have to replumb the house to make it work. Just plug into what's already there and off we go. Heck, it might even fit into my budget, which says a lot given how little I have to work with. Which is half the reason this grand plan of mine has taken so long to pull off.

Vic

Re: Filter Question

We use collected rain water for 99.99% of our water -- just haul in drinking water from town.

We treat all stored water (in above-ground Poly tanks) with chlorine, which works quite well.

All collection is from roofs, and gravity fed into the tanks.

Pumping is easy as the water did not come from 350 - 400 foot depths -- the standard depth of wells around here. Transferring water requires little power, as the elevation differences are small, and power needed for transfers is also is small.

FWIW. Vic