Trojan's Smart Carbon technology

DMJ72

Interesting webinar : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnOcFdYshkw&list=UUUeq83LqdZkGxXo2tb6dwIg




Take aways :

* Proprietary addition of Carbon to Negative paste
* 15% Longer life @ partial state of charge applications only
* Lower resistance - 15% faster charge acceptance
* Only available in Premium and Industrial lines
* Trojan DOES NOT recommend mixing with older lines
* Older non-carbon lines are no longer being made
* No clear solution if you need to replace an existing model!

DMJ72

Re: Trojan's Smart Carbon technology

I asked my local supplier about them, and he said the inventory of existing REs are almost depleted and that the next shipment would all be Smart Carbon. I don't like that there is NO clear solution for replacement of existing lines..

westbranch

Re: Trojan's Smart Carbon technology

I wonder if they just don't want you mixing aged cells with fresh ones.... as we always recommend not to do...

vtmaps

Re: Trojan's Smart Carbon technology

westbranch wrote: »

I wonder if they just don't want you mixing aged cells with fresh ones.... as we always recommend not to do...

Since the new batteries have lower internal resistance, I can see why you shouldn't mix them in a parallel battery bank. It's not as obvious to me why they couldn't be used to replace a battery in a single series string (other than the usual reasons).

DMJ72, did they say anything about peak current draw? Since they have lower internal resistance (like AGMs) I wonder if they can sustain higher current draws (like AMs).

--vtMaps

feedhorn

Re: Trojan's Smart Carbon technology

Wouldn't it be smarter if they just quit building lead acid batteries?

Cariboocoot

Re: Trojan's Smart Carbon technology

feedhorn wrote: »

Wouldn't it be smarter if they just quit building lead acid batteries?

Well, no because lead-acid batteries are a very economical power source. The sudden cessation of production would have a severely damaging effect on the economy, as not all lead-acid (which includes gel and AGM) have an equivalent alternate chemical technology replacement. And contrary to what some people would have you believe lead is not such a big environmental disaster. Indeed some of the elements used in other battery types are worse.

DMJ72

Re: Trojan's Smart Carbon technology

westbranch wrote: »

I wonder if they just don't want you mixing aged cells with fresh ones.... as we always recommend not to do...

No when asked, the presenter said The Smart Carbon has better charge acceptance, so it will reach higher SOC than the old ones ... so the non- smart carbon batteries will be at a lower SOC when cycled.

DMJ72

Re: Trojan's Smart Carbon technology

vtmaps wrote: »

.....DMJ72, did they say anything about peak current draw? Since they have lower internal resistance (like AGMs) I wonder if they can sustain higher current draws (like AMs).

--vtMaps

No, not explicitly, but someone asked "Will this increase the max charge rate?"

The answer was no, the charge rate remains the same.

Dave Angelini

Re: Trojan's Smart Carbon technology

They can't be real smart by having to remove three separate caps. No idea why they just did not copy US battery with the one twist three cap removal design. UGH !

feedhorn

Re: Trojan's Smart Carbon technology

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Well, no because lead-acid batteries are a very economical power source.

Well, not really. Four golf cart batteries cost about $400. My lithium battery cost $610 but due to its short charge time and 99% efficiency its like you get a free solar panel with the deal. So the cost of lithium is about the same initially. The lithium is expected to outlast 4 sets of golf cart batteries.

So lead acid is not so economical.

Blackcherry04

Re: Trojan's Smart Carbon technology

feedhorn wrote: »

Well, not really. Four golf cart batteries cost about $400. My lithium battery cost $610 but due to its short charge time and 99% efficiency its like you get a free solar panel with the deal. So the cost of lithium is about the same initially. The lithium is expected to outlast 4 sets of golf cart batteries.

So lead acid is not so economical.

How many Amp Hrs of capacity is that for $610 ??

feedhorn

Re: Trojan's Smart Carbon technology

Blackcherry04 wrote: »

How many Amp Hrs of capacity is that for $610 ??

That would be 100 amp hours which is about all you can get out of four golf cart batteries on a daily basis due to the slow recharge time.

Discharging the lithium 100% is not a problem but no more than 80% is better. A discharge rate of 3C is OK.

Thom

Re: Trojan's Smart Carbon technology

feedhorn wrote: »

That would be 100 amp hours which is about all you can get out of four golf cart batteries on a daily basis due to the slow recharge time.

Discharging the lithium 100% is not a problem but no more than 80% is better. A discharge rate of 3C is OK.

How many years old are your lithium batteries ? How many times have they bin cycled to less then 10% soc?


Thom

feedhorn

Re: Trojan's Smart Carbon technology

Thom wrote: »

How many years old are your lithium batteries ? How many times have they bin cycled to less then 10% soc?

My battery is only 3 month old so I have little experience with its longevity. I've done 0% soc twice, 10% soc 5 times, and down to about 30% soc daily.

I own two motorcycles that have LiFePO4 starting batteries that are two years old and show no deterioration.

The jury is still out.

Cariboocoot

Re: Trojan's Smart Carbon technology

feedhorn wrote: »

Well, not really. Four golf cart batteries cost about $400. My lithium battery cost $610 but due to its short charge time and 99% efficiency its like you get a free solar panel with the deal. So the cost of lithium is about the same initially. The lithium is expected to outlast 4 sets of golf cart batteries.

So lead acid is not so economical.

Well, yes it is depending on where you live.

People have got to stop assuming that the price they pay for anything is the same everywhere in the world.

Thom

Re: Trojan's Smart Carbon technology

So no long term data . Using them as a starting battery isn't the same as daily discharge use.
Would love to try them in a small 280w panel 2 golf cart battery system. I am installing it soon in a small cabin my teens use . Not sure they will fill batteries ha ha . Bought the kid charge controller for this system

Thom

feedhorn

Re: Trojan's Smart Carbon technology

Thom wrote: »

So no long term data .

Yep, you are going to need to wait another 20 years before you get enough data...

I like the fact that LiFePO4 batteries are used on LEO satellites and the ISS and get discharged and recharged 80% of capacity every 88 minutes. And even in these situations they are expected to have a useful life of at least 20 years.

Surfpath

Re: Trojan's Smart Carbon technology

Going back to the "Smart Carbon" discussion in the OP's thread: I did a quick search and it seems like the addition of carbon in FLA's to reduce stratification (esp. in a partial state of charge situation) is not new news. Various research groups (eg. Sandia Labs) have been studying this technology for 5-8 years. In fact, I am pretty surprised that there hasn't been more talk of this on NAWS.

vtmaps

Re: Trojan's Smart Carbon technology

Surfpath wrote: »

I did a quick search and it seems like the addition of carbon in FLA's to reduce stratification (esp. in a partial state of charge situation) is not new news. Various research groups (eg. Sandia Labs) have been studying this technology for 5-8 years. In fact, I am pretty surprised that there hasn't been more talk of this on NAWS.

Surfpath, Do you have a link to the Sandia reports? (or any other good links on the subject?) --vtMaps

ps what ever happened to your big yamaha generator?

Surfpath

Re: Trojan's Smart Carbon technology

Here is a brief Sandia overview with links to more detailed information:

http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/CELA.pdf

Some of the research regarding carbon-enhanced lead acid batteries involved sealed lead acid batteries.

From this research, the mechanism involved is still not clear.

"Physically, the mechanism by which carbon extends battery life is generally accepted to be through
reduction/elimination of sulfation of the negative electrode. The underlying mechanism responsible for improving
capacity on cycling is not known" Sandia Labs (2010)

But the results from their testing are fairly impressive....

Seems like Lead Acid Battery technology is about to get a big facelift.


ps. No working generator for me yet :-(....I am charging fine from the sun though. It takes a little creativity but I have not needed a generator in 9 months. Trying to get my money back so I can get a Honda Briefcase for the occasional non peak sunshine job (or for emergency back up).

westbranch

Re: Trojan's Smart Carbon technology

Whoa Back Tonto!

Here is a different view on Carbon in RE batteries from US Battery..

http://usbatterypower.blogspot.ca/2014/03/new-carbon-additives-may-not-be-best.html

The vote is not in yet...

Dave Angelini

Re: Trojan's Smart Carbon technology

westbranch wrote: »

Whoa Back Tonto!

Here is a different view on Carbon in RE batteries from US Battery..

http://usbatterypower.blogspot.ca/2014/03/new-carbon-additives-may-not-be-best.html

The vote is not in yet...

exactly! when it sounds too good, sleep on it!

Surfpath

Re: Trojan's Smart Carbon technology

Whether it's Positive Plate or Negative Plate enhancement, it's good to see things in the FLA battery scene stirred up. The technology is way dated and, now, too expensive to remain the same.

vtmaps

Re: Trojan's Smart Carbon technology

Surfpath wrote: »

it's good to see things in the FLA battery scene stirred up.

I agree... stratification is bad and it's good to stir up the electrolyte --vtMaps