ts-60 mppt questions

birdhouse

hello all-
first post here. i've been on FL for quite a while. i have a operating off grid wind and solar system, but am thinking about upgrading.

there's a video put out by morningstar about their ts-60 mppt controller. i'll link to it at the bottom (hoping that's ok for a new user)

during this video, the presenter speaks of how a ts-60 mppt can be overloaded (though i'm not sure how much) without issue. i'm not speaking of breaking the 150VOC limit, but pushing the amp limit. he claims this can be done while a solid 60A will continue to go to the bank even if more than 60A is available from the array.

i like the idea of this as an off grid array could be over sized for cloudy day production maybe getting 15-30A from say a 90A array. at the same time i would be far from unhappy getting a full 60A out of a 90A array on sunny days.

anyone else stumbled across this information?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sn0_n8JWIsU

adam

birdhouse

Re: ts-60 mppt questions

in the video linked, he starts speaking of the overloading at about 14:30

zoneblue

Re: ts-60 mppt questions

Most bigger mppt controllers have current limiting both to protect themselves, and also as a user settable limit setting (for reducing the charge rate on small banks).

This is also useful if you want to over-pv, in order to cope with poor weather and reduce generator time. If you really want to get carried away you can use "virtual trackers" by facing your arrays in different directions eg, SE and SW to further flatten the mid day peak. Most useful of grid tie and time of day billing, or if you have big day time loads lime AC, or pumps.

Still all of these ideas have particular purposes, and you need to be clear what your goals are. Saving a few bucks on controllers probbaly isnt one of the "right" reasons.

birdhouse

Re: ts-60 mppt questions

i have no interest in grid tie. i think i was pretty clear in my post. how hard can you overload a ts-60 mppt in amps, not volts. ideally i'd love to send 100A+ of solar into a ts-60 mppt for cloudy conditions, but i don't want to blow the thing up. as stated before, i'm more than happy with a MAX of 60A coming in on full sun days!

adam

vtmaps

Re: ts-60 mppt questions

Welcome to the forum,

"Over paneling" a controller is common, but I don't know how far you can go with that particular controller.

When you over panel, that's great for cloudy days, but on sunny days there is a lot of lost solar potential. When the controller (either by its limited capacity or by setting an amps limit to protect the battery) clips the current, that potential power cannot be used.

A neat feature that will be implemented soon (by firmware update) for Midnite's Classic controller will be some sort of dynamically changing output limit, depending on the battery current.
For example, let's say your array can make 90 amps. You tell the Classic to limit the current into the batteries to 50 amps (the Classic has an optional battery current sensor). You turn on a load that draws 30 amps from the battery. The classic will then harvest 80 amps, with 50 amps to the battery and 30 amps to the load.

With most (all?) controllers, including the midnite classic at this moment, if you set a limit of 50 amps, that's the limit of what can be harvested.

--vtMaps

BB.

Re: ts-60 mppt questions

As long as you do not exceed the voltage ratings for a good quality MPPT charge controller, you can over-panel as much as you want.

Basically, if you over panel such that the Imp-array is > 1.56*Imp-array rating of the branch circuit wiring from array to the controller, then you must put a fuse/breaker at the array to protect the cable from the array to the charge controller from over current.

One common use for a smaller MPPT charge controller is to use it to take power from a 24 or 48 volt battery bank and "Down Converter" the battery bank to charge a 12 volt battery bank (i.e., the "solar panel" input of the MPPT charge controller is a higher voltage battery bank). Very common for folks that need some 12 volt power (HAM Radio, etc.).

Normally, we over panel by 1/0.77 -- Solar panels are rated at room temperature and their true output drops when placed under sun on a bright/sunny day. Plus there are some losses (charge controller, wiring, etc.)--So derating by ~0.77 allows us to use larger array/smaller charge controller and only have the controller "clip" its output to rated current (by a little bit) a few hours on very cold/clear days.

A 60 amp controller:

• 60 amps * 12 volts = 720 Watt "nominal" array

The actual recommended maximum sizing (cost effective) for a MPPT controller is:

• 60 amps * 14.5 volts battery charging * 1/0.77 panel+controller derating = 1,130 Watt array "cost effective maximum"

Note this only works for "true" MPPT type charge controllers. PWM and some "questionable" import MPPT controllers will fail if connected to "over sized" arrays or directly to a battery bank on their input.

Over paneling is an interesting concept, and with the price of panels 1/10th of what they were 15+ years ago, it can make more sense than to burn a bunch of fuel in a genset.

However--It is "expensive" to get "full system" power on dark/cloudy days--I have seen a few where my array outputs only 1/10th of its rated energy... Installing a 10x larger array vs a small genset and a few gallons of fuel for the random times I would need to cover periods of bad weather would not make much sense to me. But energy use is a highly personal set of choices--If it is the right choice for you (3x larger array), then go for it "safely".

By the way, there are "dump type" PWM controllers that connect directly to a battery bank and then to a "dump load" (resistor bank or other loads) used to control the charging of a battery bank when connected to a wind or water turbine ("dump" excess charging energy to a heater/optional loads to keep battery bank from over charging).

-Bill

birdhouse

Re: ts-60 mppt questions

bill-
thanks for the detailed response. i agree with your ideas of slightly "over paneling" a ts-60 mppt for hot temperatures and cloudy days. i'm thinking 2000-2400w into a 24v bank should be a good compromise. i agree that over paneling to the point of full 60A can be had on cloudy days is pretty silly, even with panel prices at well below $1/watt. that's where my wind turbine take over. on nasty no-solar days, it typically hovers around 200-600w output.

Basically, if you over panel such that the Imp-array is > 1.56*Imp-array rating of the branch circuit wiring from array to the controller, then you must put a fuse/breaker at the array to protect the cable from the array to the charge controller from over current.

with 150VOC it's very easy to use plenty thick of cable and fuse it as well.

thanks again!

adam

BB.

Re: ts-60 mppt questions

Sounds like a happy wind turbine owner... That would be worth a thread of its own.

So far, happy wind installations are few and far between.

-Bill

birdhouse

Re: ts-60 mppt questions

thanks bill!

my off grid ranch is outside of bickleton, WA. it's borderline wind zone 3-4. i built the turbine. it's based on a 60lb 3 phase fanuc servo motor. 8.5' 3 blade prop. piggot style furling. 70 foot home built guyed tower.

for anyone who wants to watch:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCabajWb3cDP2fzWZCO4x2Bw

sorry for the derailment!

adam

BB.

Re: ts-60 mppt questions

You are a member of the DIY wind club... Seems that building vs buying makes for happier owners (in general).

-Bill

birdhouse

Re: ts-60 mppt questions

@vtmaps-
although i'm very interested in the midnite solar controllers, sadly, i doubt i will ever buy one due to cost.

honestly, if i'm wasting energy, yet getting a full 60A into my 24v battery bank, i'll be happy as can be. over paneling will allow the full 60A to happen earlier in the morning, later in the day as well as slightly cloudy days. i'm more than willing to get these added amps while wasting some amps on clear days. IMHO a properly designed system has no issues at all on clear days. it's how they perform on half sunny days, haze, ect. that really makes the difference.

adam

birdhouse

Re: ts-60 mppt questions

Seems that building vs buying makes for happier owners (in general).

although i agree with you, it is a funny thing. many folks are happy with their wind turbines just because they built them, and they spin, and occasionally put a few amps into the battery bank.

i feel like i kinda lucked out with picking the right blade dia, TSR ect for the motor i purchased. in reality, it's about 80-90% as good as a bergey XL-1, and about the same size. i've lost track of how many times i've woken in the morning to a volt meter showing the batts are brimming full (dumping power through a PWM ts-60)

adam

BB.

Re: ts-60 mppt questions

There is another reason to "over panel"... Virtual tracking array... Instead of installing 500 watts on a moving tracker--Install 500 watts facing south east and another 500 watts facing southwest.

That allows you to "stretch" your charging over more hours of the day.

For the most part, Lead Acid Batteries like long/steady charging power... And a fixed array with ~4-6 hours of "useful" energy with a large peak at noon is not what the battery "really wants" for a long and happy life.

Note, there are ongoing arguments whether these two arrays could share one controller or would work better with two separate MPPT charge controllers. If cost is an issue--I would not worry about trying one controller and seeing how it all works.

You can use PV Watts and its "output by hour" option to make a spread sheet to see how different array orientations work for you.

-Bill

BB.

Re: ts-60 mppt questions

birdhouse wrote: »

although i agree with you, it is a funny thing. many folks are happy with their wind turbines just because they built them, and they spin, and occasionally put a few amps into the battery bank.

i feel like i kinda lucked out with picking the right blade dia, TSR ect for the motor i purchased. in reality, it's about 80-90% as good as a bergey XL-1, and about the same size. i've lost track of how many times i've woken in the morning to a volt meter showing the batts are brimming full (dumping power through a PWM ts-60)

"Luck" in engineering is a lot of research and hard work.

Plus that 70 foot pole helps a lot (we recommend 60' or higher minimum for most folks). And being in a "naturally windy" area helps a lot too.

If you really want something interesting--Look at using an MPPT controller with your wind turbine... It is possible to get 2-3x more output using a MPPT controller than just wiring the alternator to a battery bank (sad part--MPPTs for wind/water turbines are not cheap either).

Solar, wind, and water--It is location, location, location.

-Bill

birdhouse

Re: ts-60 mppt questions

bill-
yes, i've read about this. chris olsen from from FL has done this with one controller from MS. it seems the results are great! these new controllers seem to be smart enough to change the curve to optimize power from different arrays pointing different directions.

my big question would be: lets say you have an array pointing solar south, and you can only afford to add one more array pointing SE or SW, which is better? putting amps into the battery late in the day to harvest as much as you can before the sun goes down, or getting the batts charging again first thing in the morning??

adam

birdhouse

Re: ts-60 mppt questions

or are you better off having nothing facing south, and splitting all your panels SE and SW??

birdhouse

Re: ts-60 mppt questions

Look at using an MPPT controller with your wind turbine

yea, i've thought about this. seems midnite solar is the only company i know of that you can put custom curves into. then there's building a clipper to keep from frying the controller. it's just hard to justify for me when the turbine does so well going into an old ts-60 PWM unit that has been rock solid.

plus, i've got a blade tracking or balance issue with the machine. i'm not worried about it with the current set up, but i think i would be if i had the thing running on mppt...

adam

mike95490

Re: ts-60 mppt questions

birdhouse wrote: »

.....i like the idea of this as an off grid array could be over sized for cloudy day production maybe getting 15-30A from say a 90A array. ....

My 3KW array, will produce 250-300w on a cloudy day. That means I have to run the backup generator, or flatten the batteries and then run the backup generator.

zoneblue

Re: ts-60 mppt questions

birdhouse wrote: »

i have no interest in grid tie. i think i was pretty clear in my post.

You didnt say what your goal was so i gave you a wide range of answers. We here are helping people out as best we can and a little courtesy is the least we expect in return.

how hard can you overload a ts-60 mppt in amps, not volts. ideally i'd love to send 100A+ of solar into a ts-60 mppt for cloudy conditions, but i don't want to blow the thing up. as stated before, i'm more than happy with a MAX of 60A coming in on full sun days!

adam

birdhouse

Re: ts-60 mppt questions

zone blue-
sorry if i was abrasive. the first line of my original post stated i was off grid.

again, sorry if i offended you!

adam

zoneblue

Re: ts-60 mppt questions

No worrys, the written word often lacks context.

My thought is that you might want to do cost benefit comparison on this overpanelling idea. For the sake of the argument assume you double your array:

- double cost of PV (costs about 1/4 of a second controller)
- double the poor day output
- double not much is still not much (to a point)

Compared to doubling array plus doubling controller, then implementing "waste not" oppurtunity loads for the surplus, the obvious candiate being heating hot water.

birdhouse

Re: ts-60 mppt questions

zone blue-

i just re-read my response before posting, and it sounds a bit nasty, but it is my true feelings. i fully agree that MS makes some of the best CC out there, but they are spendy!


thanks for the response. although i respect you ideas, doubling controllers is just not in the budget. especially when your talking about MS controllers. i fully understand the "waste not" function in the MS controllers. even then do you think an extra 300-400w is going to heat much water? the average WH has 3500w elements. i also understand that when the bank hits float and or absorb, the large majority of the solar could go to heat water, but even then it's a drop in the bucket unless we're talking about a 5 gallon water heater.

if i were to try to utilize the waste not feature on a MS controller, i'd rather pump water uphill to be used later with a hydro system, but that also includes a lot of difficulty and money...

adam

zoneblue

Re: ts-60 mppt questions

birdhouse wrote: »

zone blue-

i just re-read my response before posting, and it sounds a bit nasty, but it is my true feelings. i fully agree that MS makes some of the best CC out there, but they are spendy!

I havent compared lately, but i got the impression that the big four were all in the same ballpark. Plus Classic lite gives you options to save $100+, and theres the extra amps, 96A cf 60A.

thanks for the response. although i respect you ideas, doubling controllers is just not in the budget. especially when your talking about MS controllers.

But adding panels is in the budget, yeah?

i fully understand the "waste not" function in the MS controllers. even then do you think an extra 300-400w is going to heat much water? the average WH has 3500w elements. i also understand that when the bank hits float and or absorb, the large majority of the solar could go to heat water, but even then it's a drop in the bucket unless we're talking about a 5 gallon water heater.

If you search the forum youll find many here who are heating significant amounts of their water using surplus pv. Ive calculated that i have a year round average of 6kWh per day surplus here, thats quite a bit of energy.

The point i was making was to make sure that overpanelling is going to save you money. Without having run the numbers I *suspect* that by optimising pv to controller and loads, the overall cost will be lower than overpanelling.

birdhouse

Re: ts-60 mppt questions

wow-
just did some online shopping. the classic lite 150 can be had for just over $500 plus shipping. almost identically priced to the morningstar.

this makes it a no brainer especially with the 82-94A rating (24v bank. A varies based on input solar volts).

i guess i still remember when the classics first came out and seeing the $800 price tag.

looks like i'm going to have to do some scheeming to figure out a way to use the "waste not" feature on the controller.

just did some deeper digging, looks like the classic lite doesn't come with the display, and its a ~$180 option. thats equal to another 200w of panels!

adam

Vic

Re: ts-60 mppt questions

Hi birdhouse,

Had wanted to respond to your earlier statement that the Classics were way spendy, which they are not, especially when one considers their many additional capabilities. Glad that zoneblue DID bring up that aspect.

When buying new, the Classic adds about $110 over the cost of the Classic Lite:
http://www.solar-electric.com/misocl.html

The Classic Lite has considerably more functionality with its LED and switch front panel vs the Morningstar MPPT 60 (IMO), and of course there is the MidNite Application software that runs on your computer that allows you to do almost everything that can be done with the Classic's standard LCD/input front panel -- the MNGP.

You are correct that adding the MNGP to a Classic Lite adds about $180.

The Morningstar MPPT CC may well have some advantage for some specific applications, BUT, the MidNite Classic line of CCs sure are the screaming great deal solution for most of the rest of us. I AM biased in favor of MidNite, as their customer service and tech support are by far the best of ANY company that I've dealt with. They have an active Forum, with MidNite Founders/Engineers, and Tech Support manager input, multiple times per day -- even on weekends! A great team that has been doing RE products for many decades (they were very active at Trace Engineering/Xantrex, and were founders of Outback power). And so on. Am just a happy customer, but love all that they have done for their customers, like me.

MidNite Forum:
http://www.midniteforum.com/index.php

FWIW, good luck and have fun designing and building your system. Vic

birdhouse

Re: ts-60 mppt questions

vic-
thanks for the info. the more i think of this, i think a standard classic is just plain the way to go! better controller, better company, and a few more coins. i also believe i have found a tiny use for the waste not feature, though i'm sure it could be used more wisely in the future. my diesel generator has a 24v starting bank. the waste not could keep those batts topped off while i'm not around.

adam

Vic

Re: ts-60 mppt questions

OK, Great Adam,

Think that you will be very happy with the Classic, and agree that having the full Classic, if possible, can make life a bit simpler.

And Waste Not is a function that can grow as needed.

Have Fun, Vic