First timer needing lots of good advice.

Scylipt
Scylipt Registered Users Posts: 6
Hi all,

I really hope Im in the right place for some good advice in setting up a wind powered generator as I just cannot afford to pay another electric bill like the 500 Euros ( for 2 months ) one I have just received.

My plan is to set up a wind turbine and have it power the heating here at home, or at least lower the cost of it during the winter months here in Finland, (which is most of the year).

What I have so far is a generator, which I bought locally http://flic.kr/p/ksoQn2 http://flic.kr/p/ksoLLV http://flic.kr/p/ksoGAR

and 3 blades which I bought from eBay. http://flic.kr/p/kso1M4

I understand that this will take a lot of effort and extra components but I'm ready for the challenge. Though my knowledge in this area isn't very broad, my biggest hope is that I can keep popping onto this thread and asking for advice whilst going through the process.

I guess what I need to know firstly is what would I be needing other than what I already have, an Itinerary of sorts I guess. Im not expecting anyone to hold my hand all the way so if somebody could point me in the direction of a web page or something where I can read for myself then I would be very happy, I can then come back and ask questions on anything I don't understand.

Thank you ever so much.

Comments

  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: First timer needing lots of good advice.

    Welcome to the forum.

    If you're goal is to save money on your electric bill spend the capital on conservation improvements first.

    Frankly wind turbines are notoriously over-rated in their power production. Even if you should get a good one, don't expect full output power unless it is up a >50 foot (152M) pole in steady 20 MPH (32KPH) winds.

    Not knowing exactly what you've got for a turbine I can only say that you'd need to wire its output to a constant resistance load to provide heat and prevent over-speed of the turbine. Wherein lies a problem: the heat output will not be regulated. There will be heat to the extent of the turbine's power when the wind blows, and none when it doesn't. No "on/off as needed".

    Immediately some will suggest using the turbine to power a grid-tie inverter and having it feed the grid whenever it can and offset the utility bill. The problem there is that your power company and local authorities may not permit this.

    You've sort of put the cart before the horse buying things first without researching how to use them. My advice is to see if you can sell it again and come up with a plan wherein the expense will give you an absolutely positive return for the money invested.
  • Brianellul
    Brianellul Solar Expert Posts: 95 ✭✭
    Re: First timer needing lots of good advice.
    Scylipt wrote: »
    Hi all,

    I really hope Im in the right place for some good advice in setting up a wind powered generator as I just cannot afford to pay another electric bill like the 500 Euros ( for 2 months ) one I have just received.

    My plan is to set up a wind turbine and have it power the heating here at home, or at least lower the cost of it during the winter months here in Finland, (which is most of the year).

    What I have so far is a generator, which I bought locally

    and 3 blades which I bought from eBay.

    I understand that this will take a lot of effort and extra components but I'm ready for the challenge. Though my knowledge in this area isn't very broad, my biggest hope is that I can keep popping onto this thread and asking for advice whilst going through the process.

    I guess what I need to know firstly is what would I be needing other than what I already have, an Itinerary of sorts I guess. Im not expecting anyone to hold my hand all the way so if somebody could point me in the direction of a web page or something where I can read for myself then I would be very happy, I can then come back and ask questions on anything I don't understand.

    Thank you ever so much.

    Hi

    There should be some good wind in Finland because your goverement did start investing in generating power from the wind. However in your case this will be different since you will not installing a MW turbine! You will have to search for a good wind turbine depending on your budget. I assume that solar in Finland is not feasible due to the short winter days. Start by checking if it's OK to sell power back to your energy provider. If that's the case, then your system will be a lot simpler since you'll connect the turbine to a grid-tie inverter and you'll sell whatever you produce thus off setting your consumption.

    Regards
    Brian
  • Scylipt
    Scylipt Registered Users Posts: 6
    Re: First timer needing lots of good advice.

    Thank you for the replies,

    You are quiet right in saying that I should have done my research before purchasing anything. The items I have were not bought specifically with this project in mind however, as I have always had an interest in free energy. Last summer I built a small solar hot water heater just to see if it would work, and a vertical windmill which although produced a satisfying RPM, in its prototype stage was just too small to power the generator I have. This didnt cost me anything as we have a lot of items laying around that could be used, so I was hoping to do the same for this project . I do understand though that there are things I will need that I can not build and must be purchased. I will put pictures up of the blades and the generator in this thread when I get the chance so you can see if they can be used. Wind power is definately the way to go here in Finland as the winter days are short and it can get very windy. First things first though, I must contact the electric company and see if they will allow me to feed anything I can produce back into the grid, as Brian suggested.

    Thanks again for the help, I really appreciate it.
  • Scylipt
    Scylipt Registered Users Posts: 6
    Re: First timer needing lots of good advice.

    Ive added links to pictures of the generator and blades in the Original post.
  • bill von novak
    bill von novak Solar Expert Posts: 891 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: First timer needing lots of good advice.

    Quick correction:
    don't expect full output power unless it is up a >50 foot (152M) pole in steady 20 MPH (32KPH) winds

    I suspect you intended to post ">50 meter (152 foot)" tower. Although a 152 meter tower would certainly improve the odds of a wind installation generating useful power . . .
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: First timer needing lots of good advice.
    Quick correction:



    I suspect you intended to post ">50 meter (152 foot)" tower. Although a 152 meter tower would certainly improve the odds of a wind installation generating useful power . . .

    Yes, thank you Bill, and in my usually humourous fashion that's an exaggeration of course.
    The idea is turbines need to be up in the air out of the turbulence as much as possible in order to supply steady usable power. Down near (for them) the ground they spend a lot of time being buffeted and twisting with wind coming at them from multiple directions reducing the effect on the blades. If only you could see the way the air moves; it goes in swirls rather than a steady stream.
  • Sun Dog
    Sun Dog Solar Expert Posts: 115 ✭✭
    Re: First timer needing lots of good advice.

    Scylipt, I'm at a similar latitude (in northern Canada)as you but according to PVWatts we get more sun. Your November/December/January looks pretty tough but the rest of the year doesn't look too bad. I have no idea how good your location is for wind but if you look at your situation over the entire year solar may still be a better option. It has been said many times before but even expensive grid power is usually cheaper than solar or wind.

    How many kWh/day do you normally use during winter and during summer? What do you pay/kWh from your electric company? We use between 5-6kWh/day during the dark days of winter. Our annual generator run time is 250-300 hours. We haven't had to run the generator in the last two weeks even though our car gets plugged in every morning. That alone consumes close to 1 kWh.
  • Scylipt
    Scylipt Registered Users Posts: 6
    Re: First timer needing lots of good advice.
    Sun Dog wrote: »
    Scylipt, I'm at a similar latitude (in northern Canada)as you but according to PVWatts we get more sun. Your November/December/January looks pretty tough but the rest of the year doesn't look too bad. I have no idea how good your location is for wind but if you look at your situation over the entire year solar may still be a better option. It has been said many times before but even expensive grid power is usually cheaper than solar or wind.

    How many kWh/day do you normally use during winter and during summer? What do you pay/kWh from your electric company? We use between 5-6kWh/day during the dark days of winter. Our annual generator run time is 250-300 hours. We haven't had to run the generator in the last two weeks even though our car gets plugged in every morning. That alone consumes close to 1 kWh.

    The only reason Im doing this is to cut down our winter heating, where sunlight is minimal at best. The rest of the year is indeed mostly sunny, and for long hours, so this will indeed be a better option if I were to ween myself off the grid. Im currently trying to contact our electric company to see if we can invert any power we generate, though as you can imagine , even this is difficult when you dont speak the language, so Ill try answer your your questions about our usage after that, though Im not sure how grid electric can be cheaper than something that generates its power naturally.

    As soon as I find out either way Ill be hammering this thread with a multitude of questions so as to get the job done asap. I may also share the experience from start to finish via video, on how I got on and the final result, which should be interesting as Ill be doing all the work myself ( Money again ) , building and installing, though maybe not the electrics.

    The bottom line is that I can not afford another batch of winter electric bills like this past year, so I really am hoping for all the advice I can get.
  • Scylipt
    Scylipt Registered Users Posts: 6
    Re: First timer needing lots of good advice.

    Wow that took some time.

    While Ive been away I have contacted the Finish electric company and found that you can indeed feed upto 1000W electricity back into the grid. Having thought what I want to do, I have decided that as I do not have a initial lump sum of money to throw at this it will have to be an ongoing project where I will try install the gear required to feed electricity I can produce back into thew grid, and then daisy chain things to it as things move along.

    What I would like to know if anyone can be so kind as to tell me is,

    What equipment would I require to be able to do this. If possible could anyone write me a shopping list down so I can visit Ebay when I have the funds and purchase things.

    the main things I would like to buy are the boxes ( I dont know the names ) that convert the energy I make into the same energy I can feed back into the grid.

    Such as this

    I hope someone is kind enough with there time to let me know.

    Thank you
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: First timer needing lots of good advice.

    You need a plan before you can have a shopping list.

    The boxes you refer to; I believe you mean grid-tie inverter. That is what changes DC input to AC output synchronized with the grid power. There are several different types and many brands. Some work directly from solar panels, some work directly from wind (those are becoming scarcer now that SMA has stopped making Windy Boys), some work from batteries recharged by solar and/or wind.

    The item you linked to is a solar charge controller which would connect PV to batteries, not to the grid.

    Our host's grid-tie inverter section: http://www.solar-electric.com/inverters-controllers-accessories/gridtiesolar.html

    If you don't have a plan you will be buying blind.
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: First timer needing lots of good advice.

    Buying a piece at a time won't get your setup, up and running any faster, since you need the heater element as part of your system, if anything you might even just run a 2 heating element system first, one inside and one outside, so you can choose where you want the energy to go, Some of these aren't too expensive, and though I'm not wind savvy, you might be able to do this with out batteries or inverter at all.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • Scylipt
    Scylipt Registered Users Posts: 6
    Re: First timer needing lots of good advice.

    The Plan is,

    Install whatever it is that converts the electric I produce into electric I can feed back into the grid.

    Ideally I was hoping that this thing can accept any input ie, convert the electricity I generate through multiple sources whether it be a solar panel or wind turbine, and put it back into the grid. I could even look at running the heater we already have installed with the power I can produce.

    From this point onwards I will be hoping to buy panels and daisy chain them, along with anything else that produces electric, together building my output over time. I do not know how better to explain this so im hoping you understand me this time or Im lost before I start. If the invertor, if that is what I need, will not accept multiple inputs then i will probably stick to buying grade b solar panels from the ebay and encasing them in epoxy resin.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: First timer needing lots of good advice.

    Problem: there are no grid-tie inverters that will take whatever you throw at them and work. They all have specific input needs for Voltage and current in order to operate.

    The only way to somewhat mitigate this is to use a battery-based hybrid inverter, which is the most expensive kind. Then you can have multiple charge sources keeping the battery bank up and the inverter set to sell "surplus" power to the grid when available.

    But then you have to have a battery bank sufficient for the inverter size, and the inverter will only have a capacity of "so many" Watts; any power source above that will not be utilized.

    You might go with micro-inverters, adding one with its panel as you can afford to. These would be connected to a dedicated GT line in your service panel, but again there is a limit to that: 20% of the main service rating. Nor will they work with just any panel and certainly not with wind.

    I think you need to study more about how these things work and get a better understanding of what you would be getting into.
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: First timer needing lots of good advice.
    Scylipt wrote: »
    .... i will probably stick to buying grade b solar panels from the ebay and encasing them in epoxy resin.

    Not sure what you are saying here, Grade 'B' typically means panels that have minor imperfections, at least in the states you could equate 'B' with blemished panels. Some even come with full warranties. If you need to incase a panel in epoxy resin, I would assume it has broken glass. This would just be a broken panel, I don't know how long it would last even encased in epoxy. Most epoxies will yellow pretty rapidly exposed to sun light. Solar panels can last a very long time, I just set one up made in 1980 to run a friends water pump for hydroponics, so you might evaluate the value of repairing a panel you might have to constantly check and wonder how many years of service you will out of it.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: First timer needing lots of good advice.

    And a warning... Solar panels (and some other types of power sources) are "current sources". It means that you cannot protect against short circuits very well (a current source outputs roughly the same current into a working load or a dead short).

    And there is the problem of lots of electrical connections out in the weather (on the roof, etc.) that can have intermitent connections which can exprience "arc faults". Basically a poor connection (corrosion, broken wire, etc.) that starts an arc. These arcs can be quite stable (like an arc welder)--And the GT Inverter (converts DC power to utility grade AC power) will work just fine with arcing in the wiring.

    Add plastic to a UL/NRTL designed and Listed panel--And you have a nice source of fire (this had plastic panels that were not UL/NRTL Listed):

    Panel Fire Question


    And wind turbines are mechanical devices... They can have lots of problems of their own. From blades and bearings failing, to towers collapsing, to "attracting lightning" into your home--Their issues are not to be taken lightly either.

    Wind Turbine/Tower Failures

    These problems are not common--But given that they are running 24 hours per day, 365 days per year, whether you are home or not--Designing/installing a safe and reliable system is very important.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset