Nickel-Iron Batteries

BuougBuoug Registered Users Posts: 12
Has anyone heard of these batteries? Is this just a gimic? Says they can be discharged 95% without damage to the charge life unless I'm reading that wrong.

http://ironedison.com/store

Comments

  • H2SO4_guyH2SO4_guy Solar Expert Posts: 213 ✭✭✭
    Re: Nickel-Iron Batteries

    There is lots of info on them. Bottom line IMO, they are not nearly as cool as they appear to be. The Chinese ones aren't lasting as long as they were supposed to. The power it takes to charge them vs. what you get out of them is not so good. I am using mostly used batteries I got cheap and they work very well. Also wait until you find out how much it costs to change electrolite! That is an eye-opener for most.

    Let us know!
    12K asst panels charging through Midnite Classic 150's, powering Exeltechs and Outback VFX-3648 inverter at 12 and 48 volts.  2080 AH @ 48 VDC of Panasonic Stationary batteries (2 strings of 1040 AH each) purchased for slightly over scrap, installed August 2013.  Outback PSX-240X for 220 volt duties.  No genny usage since 2014. 
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 8,335 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Nickel-Iron Batteries

    ditto what H2SO4_guy said. And I'm really tired of adding 20 gallons of water every 3 or 4 months. Dreading the eventual electrolyte change out, dumping out 80# batteries and then refilling. Took 100 gallons of distilled for the commissioning fill.

    And not all inverters or chargers will work with them over the very wide voltage range they use. My bank charges at 65V and is low at 46V.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • BuougBuoug Registered Users Posts: 12
    Re: Nickel-Iron Batteries

    I have been looking around and found a good read on these batteries.

    http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?p=5048914
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 8,335 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Nickel-Iron Batteries

    On the otherhand, the NiFe cells are great for the week long cloudy sessions I get, and don't want to run the generators for 5 hours a day to top batteries off. I can cycle from 40 - 80 % and not worry about sulfating the cells. But you don't want to take them way down to 20%, because that can void the warranty in the fine print.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • BuougBuoug Registered Users Posts: 12
    Re: Nickel-Iron Batteries

    So anything above 20% is good or should you use them like any other battery not going below 50% unless you need too?
  • techntrektechntrek Solar Expert Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭
    Re: Nickel-Iron Batteries

    If you are investigating alternative chemistries, look at flooded Nickel-Cadmium. Many advantages, including the ability to be completely discharged, very low water loss, no problem with extreme cold or heat. Downside, not many suppliers and not cheap.
    4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is
  • BillBlakeBillBlake Solar Expert Posts: 49
    Re: Nickel-Iron Batteries
    mike95490 wrote: »
    ditto what H2SO4_guy said. And I'm really tired of adding 20 gallons of water every 3 or 4 months. Dreading the eventual electrolyte change out, dumping out 80# batteries and then refilling. Took 100 gallons of distilled for the commissioning fill.

    And not all inverters or chargers will work with them over the very wide voltage range they use. My bank charges at 65V and is low at 46V.

    Hi Mike & Group,

    Happy New Year.

    Mike, did you get to testing your Nickel Iron Electrolyte for Carbonates yet?

    Have you thought about which Grade Level of Lithium Hydroxide
    your going to use
    and how many grams per Liter you will use.

    Or does buying the best LiOH at the cheapest cost
    (in sealed 500 gram solid wall jars)
    Void your battery warranty?
    The devil !

    The Legendary Diamond John Mario D'Angelo

    (from your Thirsty Nickel battery company :-)

    Search:

    John D'Angelo and Brandon Williams.

    John updates his Ni-Fe warranty often enough
    that I'm not quite sure just how your particular Ni-Fe guarantee read
    back in the Summer or early Fall of (was it?) 2011 when you started the
    Great Ni-Fe Experiment of our time.

    At least one and probably 2 of John's Ni-Fe warranties
    from around that time period
    are in my short stories :-) at the Fieldlines forum under

    http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=AgpUfW9quPz6uZWXXKiS5_SbvZx4?fr=yfp-t-900-s&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8&p=nickel%20iron%20life%20cycle%20chart

    Also a Lead in to how Mr. Edison's Legendary Chief Engineer
    and Personal Representative,
    Dr. Miller Reese Hutchison
    (along with many others in the Edison Gang)
    found the easy way to change your scary Electrolyte.

    (Lucky you didn't get the Changhong 800 Series Ni-Fe Cells.
    Only one step up from your 700 Series but
    OVER twice the Electrolyte that is in your units.

    Ni-Fe strategy STARTS with that decision and that choice
    in Electrolyte volume per Amp hours.

    The US Navy could use the Edison World War One Electrolyte technology
    to save Lives in
    damaged submerged US Submarines
    during WWI if they had a breathing problem
    for up to 100 days.
    Excellent CO2 Air Scrubbers - they is.

    Note: IF the Navy had decided that they wanted Ni-Fe.

    Plus they could filter the badboy Ni-Fe Electrolyte and not change it at all
    in some cases.
    (Mr. Edison had also been into filtering Ni-Fe juice years and years
    before WWI.)

    Not to mention the built-in ability of fairly easy tear downs and
    Ni-Fe Battery Rejuvenations for Decades and Decades.
    This is not possible with todays Ni-Fe.
    The devils !

    Yes the OLD Ni-Fe technology has great promise -

    SOMEDAY over the Rainbow.

    Back to the Future and all that.

    BillBlake
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 8,335 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Nickel-Iron Batteries
    BillBlake wrote: »
    .....Also a Lead in to how Mr. Edison's Legendary Chief Engineer
    and Personal Representative,
    Dr. Miller Reese Hutchison
    (along with many others in the Edison Gang)
    found the easy way to change your scary Electrolyte.....

    Could you be a bit more specific as to where this info on easy changing, or de-carbonizing the electrolyte is ?
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • BuougBuoug Registered Users Posts: 12
    Re: Nickel-Iron Batteries
    techntrek wrote: »
    If you are investigating alternative chemistries, look at flooded Nickel-Cadmium. Many advantages, including the ability to be completely discharged, very low water loss, no problem with extreme cold or heat. Downside, not many suppliers and not cheap.

    I will do research on this Nickel-Cadmium. Thank you for the info!
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 8,335 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Nickel-Iron Batteries
    techntrek wrote: »
    If you are investigating alternative chemistries, look at flooded Nickel-Cadmium. Many advantages, including the ability to be completely discharged, very low water loss, no problem with extreme cold or heat. Downside, not many suppliers and not cheap.

    The big downside, is they are listed as Toxic Waste, even when new. Permits, Fees...... it's the cadmium that is toxic.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • techntrektechntrek Solar Expert Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭
    Re: Nickel-Iron Batteries
    Buoug wrote: »
    I will do research on this Nickel-Cadmium. Thank you for the info!

    Make sure you look at flooded Ni-Cad.
    4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is
  • techntrektechntrek Solar Expert Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭
    Re: Nickel-Iron Batteries
    mike95490 wrote: »
    The big downside, is they are listed as Toxic Waste, even when new. Permits, Fees...... it's the cadmium that is toxic.

    All batteries are toxic, especially those lead ones. Just like lead-acid batteries, flooded Ni-Cad is recycled at the end. What permits & fees???? You buy and install it the same as lead-acid.
    4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is
  • BillBlakeBillBlake Solar Expert Posts: 49
    Re: Nickel-Iron Batteries
    mike95490 wrote: »
    Could you be a bit more specific as to where this info on easy changing, or de-carbonizing the electrolyte is ?

    Mike,

    We are going on 3 years since you bought your Legendary Ni-Fe Batteries and you have
    mentioned buying the Electrolyte Carbonate Test Kit
    a number of times (here and there) over a number of months.

    I'm beginning to worry that your Ni-Fe Warranty is SHOT no matter which version of
    'Diamond' John Mario D'Angelo's
    Ni-Fe guarantee that you go by at BeUtilityFree
    where you bought the badboy NiFe Cells.

    John states quite clearly ..... 'NO tickey - NO Laundry'.

    No Carbonate Test Every Year ..... NO Warranty.

    After 7 years of retirement my Son dragged me into a research project that has no end.
    He wants to play a high stakes game.
    I kind of Likes it.
    Anyway I did not finish putting up all the data that I had collected for my Ni-Fe research project
    prior to this new project. The Ni-Fe was ALL for free so it takes 'second fiddle' place now.

    I CAN take the time to dig up what your asking about along with where you can get the
    very best deal available (in the USA)
    on the highest grade, best storage procedures, etc.
    Lithium Hydroxide -

    after you test your Electrolyte for Carbonates
    and see where we stand.

    In da meantime for the few fans of Nickel Iron Battery Technology and it's wild story :-)

    Here is a Link to one of Mike's threads called

    'Batteries on the way '.

    Old Bill love it because The Legendary 'Diamond' John Mario D'Angelo
    did 9 of his 20 posts
    over at the Solarpaneltalk forum
    in this thread and John actually
    admitted who he was there.

    It was a lot of fun and he even traded blows with
    Sunking and Russ (one of the moderators).

    Naturally he also had a little somethin for old 'Sundetective' (me) :-)

    My kids think it's nuts but I just tell them
    It's better dan a $100 bar tab and a DUI ;-)


    http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showthread.php?4755-Batteries-on-the-way


    Bill Blake
  • jstack6jstack6 Registered Users Posts: 1
    I'm going to try these. With the new rules and fees the utilities have added in Arizona partial Off GRID is the only way to beat them at their game. NiFE could be the answer. I've read they have improved these batteries and over come some older issues. I will let you know how they do in 25 years or more. LOL maybe less if they don't out perform nasty old lead acid. They are the worst pollution ever invented.
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 29,351 admin
    Just be careful in your design and expectations... Changing out electrolyte every X years, and (as I recall) much less energy efficiency (larger solar array/more cost of utility and generator power to recharge, "non standard" voltage range can be a bit of pain with AC inverter DC input).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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