SureSine as GRID/AC1 ?

mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 8,762 ✭✭✭✭✭
After reading some other threads, I'm looking at my daily usage from the ComBox, and have verified most of the time, I'm consuming <250 watts and my XW is spending a lot of time, inefficiently idling.

So what I'm pondering, is using my suresine to feed AC1 or AC2, (AC2 w/ gensupport?) with the XW standing by, and awaiting a surge as the fridge comes on, or the pump kicks in.

Thoughts ?
Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
|| Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
|| VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

Comments

  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: SureSine as GRID/AC1 ?

    mike,
    why aren't you using search mode? it will throttle back the power used by the inverter until a preset wattage load is drawn. see page 3-8 of the manual.

    in theory that is what the suresine would've accomplished being put inline, but you would run into a problem with the charger function on the xw being the suresine is limited in its output to supply the charger and would need the charger disabled or it'll go in circles.
  • zonebluezoneblue Solar Expert Posts: 1,218 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: SureSine as GRID/AC1 ?

    The problem as i view in my little world with search mode is that its either all or nothing. If you have a single small appliance, read telephone, modem, whatever that needs to be on 24/7, search mode becomes effectively a mound of wasted semiconductors.

    I recall bob said at one point that some outback inverters will still provide a low level of power in standby, targeted primarily at the clocks in things like microwaves and dvd players. Im not sure how much power or how it works.

    Standby power draw is a issue that really needs more work in my view. We all talk about conservation, and demand management, but the technology we use doesnt follow its own rules.
    1.8kWp CSUN, 10kWh AGM, Midnite Classic 150, Outback VFX3024E,
    http://zoneblue.org/cms/page.php?view=off-grid-solar


  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: SureSine as GRID/AC1 ?

    yes it does vary per inverter. i can understand mike's complaint too as idle draw will be large on that inverter. now having it in standby will also draw a minimum amount of power plus that of the operational tare losses the suresine will introduce so he may need to experiment with this to see what actual overall draws to the batteries will actually end up as with various configurations. will some of those small loads even be worth putting through to the xw at all and just pipe it to the suresine allowing the xw to be shut down or in search mode for bigger loads?

    ps-i see you liked the idea of using your pic as an avatar. looks good.
  • waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: SureSine as GRID/AC1 ?

    I've solved this problem by wiring all small loads to the Sursine 300. All big loads are wired to the 1800 watt inverter set to search mode, which ensures it only fires up when needed. Works awesome for me and I wouldn't want it any other way.
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: SureSine as GRID/AC1 ?

    wayne,
    i agree that may be his best option as i stated i guess while you were posting. darn slow fingers.:p in any case if it is a larger appliance that idles at a small standby power this could be problematic. he's just going to have to evaluate his circumstances for his best option.
  • Eric LEric L Solar Expert Posts: 262 ✭✭
    Re: SureSine as GRID/AC1 ?

    I'm guessing that Mike's concern is that the XW has pretty poor efficiency at a 250 watt load (based on the chart on p. A-5 of the manual).

    Mike, it seems like this would almost have to be used with something like GenSupport with the gen support amps setting set to a very low value to avoid asking too much of the SureSine. The XW needs to know the AC source can't sustain much more than 2 amps. I suppose another option would be to let the voltage sag on the Suresine when the loads are too large, signalling the XW to take over, but that would seem less desirable.
  • zonebluezoneblue Solar Expert Posts: 1,218 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: SureSine as GRID/AC1 ?

    Ok, which category do the following fall into:

    - SO leaves washing machine switched on at wall after wash
    -*I* forget to swtich desktop computer off at wall after use.

    The tare loads of either of these alone, is enough to defeat the search mode on my inverter, unless i turn the standy threshold way way up and then the soldeering iron wont turn on at al. I havent measured the tare loads of the offending appliaces, but they are clearly significant.
    1.8kWp CSUN, 10kWh AGM, Midnite Classic 150, Outback VFX3024E,
    http://zoneblue.org/cms/page.php?view=off-grid-solar


  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 8,762 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: SureSine as GRID/AC1 ?
    Eric L wrote: »
    I'm guessing that Mike's concern is that the XW has pretty poor efficiency at a 250 watt load (based on the chart on p. A-5 of the manual).

    Mike, it seems like this would almost have to be used with something like GenSupport with the gen support amps setting set to a very low value to avoid asking too much of the SureSine. The XW needs to know the AC source can't sustain much more than 2 amps. I suppose another option would be to let the voltage sag on the Suresine when the loads are too large, signalling the XW to take over, but that would seem less desirable.

    I guess AC2 & a small value at Gen support is one method, after the XW starts the fridge, it will drop back to the suresine. And if I wire my genset to AC1, and allow charging from AC1, can I block charging from AC2 ? And I wonder if in "gen support mode", if it's monitoring only, or ON and staying warm, waiting for an overload from the genset.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: SureSine as GRID/AC1 ?

    try it mike as i'm sure we'd all be curious of the results. you may need to measure the actual dc current rather than rely on assumptions though.
  • waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: SureSine as GRID/AC1 ?
    mike95490 wrote: »
    after the XW starts the fridge, it will drop back to the suresine.

    Thinking out loud:
    I've often thought about a timed relay that would allow a cheap but powerful MSW inverter to start a fridge or freezer, then flip it over to a SureSine 300 and shut down the big inverter, but never tried it, fearing the "crack-of-the-whip" surge that could from time to time happen at changeover could toast the SureSine, or trigger overload surge shutdown when you least expect it and later come home to find a runny mess in the freezer. But then again, perhaps the normal resistance in the SureSine's transformer windings may take care of that, as long as some sort of HV spikes aren't transferred back to the output FETs. Perhaps some time I'll try it using a cheap 300 watt MSW and see if it survives. Who knows, this arrangement could be the perfect and relatively very easy solution to running fridges etc on the SureSine.
  • NorthGuyNorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,925 ✭✭
    Re: SureSine as GRID/AC1 ?
    mike95490 wrote: »
    And I wonder if in "gen support mode", if it's monitoring only, or ON and staying warm, waiting for an overload from the genset.

    This is a very interesting question.

    It is possible that this changes depending on how far from the limit is the load.

    In pass-throuh mode, it does allow some surges through to AC2 before the inverter kicks in. Perhaps this is because the inverter needs some time to start.
  • Blackcherry04Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    Re: SureSine as GRID/AC1 ?

    I have no idea about Xantrex but the Minimum setting on a Outback GFX is 5 Amps on the Input, The Generator Support is Instantaneous
  • just startingjust starting Registered Users Posts: 235 ✭✭✭
    Mike did you try this?
    200ah LiFePO4 24v Electrodacus Sbms40 quad breaker chest freezer to fridge- Samlex PST 1524 - Samlex pst3024  - 1hp shallow well pump-Marey 4.3 GPM on demand waterheater - mama bear Fisher wood burning stove, 30" fridgarair oven ,fridegaire dishwasher  Unique 290l stainless D.C. Fridge-unique 120l portable fridge/freezer 
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 8,762 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No, over time, my loads have now risen to about 200 - 250w.  Had to add UV lamp on water line, and going for another 50W Ozone generator to treat water problems  :s
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

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