The new Conext SW4024 review

Dapdan

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

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Dapdan

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

More pictures Attachment not found.

Cheers....

SkiDoo55

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

I would still venture to say that with those ambient temps and even with essentially idle loads the fans could still be being commanded to run. Inverter temperature sense is probably on the heat sink or heat sinks area! Having them be 15deg F higher than exhaust air is to be expected in electronics. With air in @ 89-91 F and air out @ 94F not really moving to many BTU's

vtmaps

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

Dapdan wrote: »

I have measured the idle draw with a victron monitor and it is 2.4A at 26v to give 62.4w 50% more that what is spec.

Perhaps that explains why the fans are running. Try putting a 60 watt incandescent lightbulb in a Conext-size metal box in a warm place.

--vtMaps

Dapdan

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

The question still begs to be answered. If the fan are spouse to be functional at 104f why are they running at 94f which is the temperature at the transformer measured by amir thermometer. The midnite classic on the shelf below cuts in and out at precisely 45c as measured by the power dash. Why isn't the inverter doing that. I have had an Apollo installed in a similar worst location and the fan never ran when it was idling. I also have a magnum installed similar and it fans hardly run. I also had a xantrex proaine 3.0 and it never had these issues. It is not adding up. Maybe this context is not meañ t for tropical climates but that would not make any sense.

Cheers...
Damani

SkiDoo55

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

Temperature will be monitored by the inverter on or by one of the heat sinks for the power electronics, not the transformer. You would have to have a surface contact type thermometer to measure it accurately, to compare to what is built into the inverter.
If you get the room cooled down into the 70's would be a better test. Also, looks like batteries are low with 26 VDC input with no large load on it.
Fans don't turn on until @ 113F and go off @ 104F of internal temp. Max speed at 158 F.
Operating temps are -4 to 140 F with derating of output power starting @ 77 F.
There are temp sensors on both FETS, power boards and transformer, any will start fans.

If you don't have the owners and installation manual you can download them from the host store front site.
A optional device for the SW would be the ComBox it would let you probably see what temperature the system was reporting. I will have to double check that but it is a pretty neat additional device to have connected.

Dapdan

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

3am,

Ambient at inverter 84f. Ambient at my computer 81f. Temperature at exhaust of fan still running 87f. Current draw from batteries is 3A at 25.3v. The only load is the ceiling fan whic is set to low and only pulls 12w at that setting. All the explanations given I still maintain that this inverter does not manage heat nearly as well as others in it class with similar topology like apollo, magnum and outback. I have a magnum 4448 setup somewhere else and the fan hardly runs. Why would I need to bring a room down to 70f to see if this thing goes off. I would have to run an ac in the night/early morning to achieve that. That just doesn't seem practical. I love the unit so far but hate this fan issues. It could be a deal breaker as this inverter is to be installed into a living space which is my office. Even if not in a living space I would have concerns over wear and tear of the fans and excess parasitical loads. I mean 2.4A just to be on and the fans running constantly is not good at all.

skidoo...

In this case you are incorrect. When I took a look inside there is a temperature probe going into the transformer and there appears a thermistor attached to the inside of the case as well near the heat sinks of the mosfets.

Also clearly these fans are turning on and the temperature is way below 100f. Even if my measurement aren't as accurate as you would like them it is still a good indication of what is happening here...poor thermal management. The fans are still running and the temp is below 90f even if my measurement is off by 10f the fans should not be running if they are suppose to start at 113f that is a differnce of more that 20f. Something is not right anyway you try to spin it.

Batteries are low at 26v...? I don't understand that statement. Clearly the batteries are full and these are some new 6v 230Ah batteries (3 banks of 4) that I now breaking in.

Cheers...
Damani

inetdog

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

Dapdan wrote: »

Also clearly these fans are turning on and the temperature is way below 100f. Even if my measurement aren't as accurate as you would like them it is still a good indication of what is happening here...poor thermal management. The fans are still running and the temp is below 90f even if my measurement is off by 10f the fans should not be running if they are suppose to start at 113f that is a differnce of more that 20f. Something is not right anyway you try to spin it

Do we have a report from anyone else with the same model?
It might be a defective thermistor if it is just your unit or else a bug in the programming if it affects all of them. The data from the sensor(s) is used by the processor to program the fan drive setting.

SkiDoo55

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

Dapdan wrote: »

3am,

Ambient at inverter 84f. Ambient at my computer 81f. Temperature at exhaust of fan still running 87f. Current draw from batteries is 3A at 25.3v. The only load is the ceiling fan whic is set to low and only pulls 12w at that setting. All the explanations given I still maintain that this inverter does not manage heat nearly as well as others in it class with similar topology like apollo, magnum and outback. I have a magnum 4448 setup somewhere else and the fan hardly runs. Why would I need to bring a room down to 70f to see if this thing goes off. I would have to run an ac in the night/early morning to achieve that. That just doesn't seem practical. I love the unit so far but hate this fan issues. It could be a deal breaker as this inverter is to be installed into a living space which is my office. Even if not in a living space I would have concerns over wear and tear of the fans and excess parasitical loads. I mean 2.4A just to be on and the fans running constantly is not good at all.

skidoo...

In this case you are incorrect. When I took a look inside there is a temperature probe going into the transformer and there appears a thermistor attached to the inside of the case as well near the heat sinks of the mosfets.

Also clearly these fans are turning on and the temperature is way below 100f. Even if my measurement aren't as accurate as you would like them it is still a good indication of what is happening here...poor thermal management. The fans are still running and the temp is below 90f even if my measurement is off by 10f the fans should not be running if they are suppose to start at 113f that is a differnce of more that 20f. Something is not right anyway you try to spin it.

Batteries are low at 26v...? I don't understand that statement. Clearly the batteries are full and these are some new 6v 230Ah batteries (3 banks of 4) that I now breaking in.

Cheers...
Damani

As stated in previous post "There are temp sensors on both FETS, power boards and transformer, any will start fans"

You need to get ahold of Schneider Tech support or your local supplier and discuss this with them. You need an infrared non contact thermometer or a surface contact probe to measure the temps of the heat sinks for the FETS. If above 104° F should answer the question. My grid tied Conext and Zantrex inverters with ambient of 90°F will run heat sink temps well up into the 130°F range while inverting. Have seen 148°F at fulll output. Don't cool down to low 100's until almost no power production. Very large heat sinks but no fans.

You have inveder + load for power conversion or draw 3A *25.3 VDC + 75 watts. Agree it's still a very small idle load.
Most charge controller default settings at 25.0 VDC would be set to re-enter bulk charging. Charge to @28.8 VDC and then float @ 27.0 VDC depending upon battery chemistry and temperature. You are fairly warm so agree 26 VDC may be OK. Just seemed low if you aree daytime and chargers are working.

Worked on older large aircraft with 24 VDC systems and all of the are voltage controls are set 28.5VDC for lead Acid batteries. 18 years with 1 aircraft it had 1600 amps of 28 VDC to control for the electronics installed inside it. System drew 800-1250 amps for up to 7 hours duration of flight.

I am interested in your problems, so I am just trying to help you figure it out and offer suggestions to the problem from a long ways away. One is I am looking at adding a stand alone battery system for power outages, second just to gain experience with these, I have 6 spare 250w ET panels to play with left over from my second 5000w grid tied system (bought a pallet of 26 very good price), still haven't decided on charge controller, inverter either SW or XW. Can't backfeed any more to grid without going to a 400 amp main panel.

Not trying to get an arguement going over anything but probably until it is mounted on an open vertical surface with a minium of 6-10 inch of clearance and ambient temp is below 77°F I think they will tell you that the fans will probably run while inverting. Again I agree with you that there may be a problem with the sensors and tech support will help you in trouble shooting that. They have been very good in getting back to me on a couple of issues/concerns I had on the Conext TX3800 inverter then some input/observations I had on the new Combox. Just a note both inverters and combox are working as advertised. Zantrex GT3.8 21.5 MWh, TX3800 1.7 MWH todate. A Combox (records to MicroSD card 24 hrs per day of connected devices) or SCP would be very beneficial in doing advanced setting and to see what is going on with that inverter and other Zanbus'd devices.

Good Luck

Dapdan

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

Update,


Local time: 730am, no loads on inverter
Room ambient 81f
Ambient at inverter 83.5f
Temp at exhaust 86.5
Temp on transformer 84f(measured with non contact infrared thermometer Extech 830)

skiidoo,

I personally don't think mounting this thing on a wall with alround clearance of 10" is not going to make a difference. Where it is at right now is basically the final location the only difference being is that it will be wall mounted with the dc switchgeart attached on it left. In fact as it stand now it should have better ambient cool now versus when I install the dc switchgear which is on it way. Getting the room down to 70's is not going to happen and it won't be practical because that will be an artificial operating conditions.

I am not sure why you think it is normal for the fans to run on this inverter when the condition are as follows:

Ambient 81-88f
no load to very little load (0-40w)
IR temp on transformer 84-94f (measure through vent slots by fans onto transformer copper coils)

I have sent an email to schneider and am awaiting a response. If they will inisist, like you, that those are normal/expected operation of the inverter in the conditions I have just stated then they have a design flaw in their inverter which results in poor thermal management and just annoying twin 4" fans that run constantly. I would then prefer to go with the magnum if installation conditions are similar.

As I said any way you spin it my situation with this inverter is untenable.

Cheers...
Damani

Cariboocoot

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

Ambient temperature is irrelevant as that is not what controls the fan. I said quite some posts back to check the actual operating temperature and see if it is above the turn-on point for the fans. This is the temperature at the point where the thermal sensor is mounted, not anywhere else. If the temp is below the activation point and the fan is on the unit is defective. If it is not below the activation point then the cooling of the unit is being limited either by high ambient or restricted airflow. Xantrex will tell you the same thing.

BTW, there has been some discussion amongst the moderators regarding this thread and others in this section; there may be some changes to this section with threads moved et cetera.

Photowhit

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

Just like to say, I like this thread where it is, I like the discussion about products and a section devoted to reviews/experiences.

Dapdan

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

Carib,

I don't know exactly where the the sensors are. There seems to be one deep inside the transformer. I tried to get a be estimate of that by taking a non contact temp reading on the surface of the transformer inside of the I inverter. As for air flow and ambient temps I have already covered that. I also like the location of this particular thread.

Damani

ChrisOlson

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

Dapdan wrote: »

Carib,

I don't know exactly where the the sensors are. There seems to be one deep inside the transformer.

That is correct and where the sensor is for the transformer. It's the same as the over-temp protection for electric motors with the sensor buried in the run winding.

I guess I don't understand what the point is here. This is an inverter that is obviously not installed correctly, sitting on a shelf on a piece of cardboard, and all it runs is a ceiling fan? Do you realize that inverters run the least efficient at light loads and don't reach their peak efficiency until you get at least 25% rated load on them? I mean, if I calculate the DC to AC conversion efficiency of our XW with a 300 watt load on it, it's horrible - only about 70-75%. With no load on it it is zero percent efficient. Running just a ceiling fan it would be lucky to be 25% efficient.

Like I've always told people - if you bought an inverter to run it idle all day you made a big mistake. Forget the inverter and look at ways to convert your small loads to DC instead. All these temperature readings mean nothing. Get the thing installed properly - Schneider Tech Support is not even going to try to diagnose it until you get the inverter installed properly, on its wall bracket, and with the wiring and accessories all hooked up correctly and according to local and national code. Then if the cooling fans are still running and you don't think they should be, then contact Schneider Support and have them help you diagnose it.

Until that time, you are wasting your time coming up with all these theories on what you think about it. If it's in a room where the ambient temp is close to 90F it does not surprise me that the fans will be running - the fan in our XW runs constantly when it's that hot in the utility room. That's what the freaking fan in it is for, for pete's sake. If it's 90F in the utility room and the fan WASN'T running - then I'd be worried about something maybe being wrong with the cooling fan.
--
Chris

Dapdan

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

Chris,

You are obviously not getting it and seem to be getting quite emotional about my temp readings. I thought this was a forum to share ideas and experiences but you seem to have a problem with me sharing mine. Even if I got the inverter to run only a fan that is my decision. I saw the inverter like everything about it and go it for testing to see if would be something I would offer my clients. So far based on what is happening here I know what it short comings are. I have installed xws, magnums, Apollos and they have never behaved like this and you can't seem to see and accept that. I don't need to install this thing to code or load it up to see if it will behave differently because it won't. I have cheaper inverters that have better thermal management than this and you seem incapable of understanding or even acxeting this. This review I have started was about the fans running 24/7 not about efficiency at whatever loading so running a fan or an ac and pool pump is a mute point and is therefore irrelevant. Why you think that the inverter fans will operate at a lesser duty cycle (which is implied by you) if it is loaded up is beyond me and frankly defies logic.

Anyways I am sure that others have learnt something or are more aware of potential issue from reading this thread even though others may seem some what annoyed by it. For those annoyed that is just to bad.

Cheers...
Damani

ChrisOlson

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

Dapdan wrote: »

You are obviously not getting it and seem to be getting quite emotional about my temp readings. I thought this was a forum to share ideas and experiences but you seem to have a problem with me sharing mine.

No problem at all. Just that it is clear that conclusions about fans running in an inverter in a hot room, with no air circulation, with an inverter that is not installed properly and setting on a shelf on a piece of cardboard, is no real "review". I have the identical inverter, tested it when I got it to make sure there was no warranty issues with it out-of-the-box, and the fans do not run in it all the time. They never started once when I tested the inverter and I ran it with way heavier loads on it than what you got.

My SW is going in our yacht, and the boat is coming out of the water on Sept 28. I got over-width and over-length permits to bring the boat to our place for the winter where I can work on it, and I will be installing the new inverter in it sometime this winter. Even though it is not a real off-grid or renewable energy/solar project, I will probably post the project here for people to see since some folks do run solar inverter systems on boats here. I will take your review of the fans in it under advisement.
--
Chris

Cariboocoot

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

From Damani's experience it appears the Conext's inner workings is adding approximately 20F to ambient temps causing the fans to run even with a light load. It would be interesting to see if the fans on his would shut off if the ambient temperature was 10F less.

Having heard quite a few complaints about fans running on controllers and inverters I'd think manufacturers would get the idea people want more convection cooling and less fan-on time.

ChrisOlson

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

Cariboocoot wrote: »

From Damani's experience it appears the Conext's inner workings is adding approximately 20F to ambient temps causing the fans to run even with a light load. It would be interesting to see if the fans on his would shut off if the ambient temperature was 10F less.

The fans are controlled just like the XW. They are controlled by the main processor board. There's sensors in the transformer, on the main power or FET board, and capacitors. They feed the information to the processor board, which decides whether or not to turn on the fans. The inverter will throw a F73 Fault if the transformer temp can't be read. So if the SCP does not display a F73, then the transformer temp sensor is fine.

BUT - I see nothing hooked to Xanbus on this unit (where's the SCP for it?), no BTS, no battery terminal covers. Not even mounted to the wall.

To get started with your installation, here's Step 1 right out of the manual. Notice the part about the clearance around it highlighted in blue. I did not do that. That's in the manual:

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--
Chris

Dapdan

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

Chris,

To be fair to this process you need to recognize that the room is well ventilated as I had taken a picture showing two windows near The shelves with inverter. I don't get you fixation with the cardboard...it is there to prevent paint smugging onto the inverter. The room is not that hot and as I said the temp goes down to the low 80s high 70s early on mornings that is why posted the temps at 3am.

I take your point about installation and I will endeavour to satisfy these conditions when I do a permanent install of this inverter but you need to be fair to this process in terms of the facts of my submission.

Carib,

Thank you for recognising that there are inefficiencies that my inverter has in respect of thermal management as I have three other inverter s installed in similar or slightly worst conditions and the fan does not operate 24/7.

Thanks for all you guys input.

Cheers....
Damani

Dapdan

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

How is this poor ventilation?

Attachment not found.

Are ambient temp ranging from 77f to 89f considered hot. IMHO i consider that is warm. When this room is occupied with all windows open(nice wind blowing towards the inverter) it never gets above 90f. These are facts here. The prevailing winds are from the east and at about 10-15mph through out the year. Anyway others try to spin it the room is not hot, it is well ventilated with good air circulation, these are facts.

Cheers...
Damani

Dapdan

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

To all,

Let me add that I love this inverter but I don't love the fan running 24/7. I am hoping that it is a fixable issue. I know that installing this particular inverter exactly as outlined in the manual will not stop these fans from running 24/7 for my particular conditions. I am clear on that others...not so much. If I had an installation locally where the inverter(probably use the magnum which as better thermal management) is within living space I would not install this inverter unless I am sure that the fans will not run at load below say 200-300w which is what I am averaging night time loads at because if your were within 30ft of this thing the fans may drive you crazy and break up your night time rest. If it is in some utility room or anyother room away from a living space I would use it as it has a 10year warranty so if the fans go bum I can get some kind of fix or replacement. I love the fact that has a 10year warranty (only inverter that I know of that has a standard manufacturer's 10year warranty most others have 5yrs). Therefore I am glad that I purchased this inverter to test before i offered it to a client because I would be embrassed if a client were in my position right now.

Cheers...
Damani

Dapdan

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

I use to have an Apollo 3224 installed on the gray epanel in the next room and its fan never ran 24/7. In fact for loads below 200-300w the fan never ran. This adjacent room does not have as good ventilation and air circulation as the one that the conext is installed in. In fact the the white door that is open was only recently constructed in that solid 8" concrete blockwall. So that adjacent room had only one point of ventilation which was the entry door and that is on the west so air never blew directly into that room. So I demolished the wall and installed that white door to build that newer room adjacent to the other one for more space and better ventillation from the outside. So I know that I had other similar topology inverters (low frequency transformer types) installed in worst(in terms of ambient temp and air circulation) enviroments and the fans(single fans mine you) in those inverters only ran from about 300w upwards and certainly did not run 24/7 on idle or low loads.

Cheers...
Damani



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Cheers...
Damani

Photowhit

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Having heard quite a few complaints about fans running on controllers and inverters I'd think manufacturers would get the idea people want more convection cooling and less fan-on time.

After having the fan go out on my Prosine, and any load bigger than 400 watts or so overheating it and it shutting down, I kinda like fans running in inverters! It's been reinstalled, mostly, just need to hardwire it in, again.

That solar panel under the A/C stays cool, but I doubt it produces much...lol.

Always wondered if a small efficient Sine wave inverter, 300 watt morning star?, could be run through a larger inverter so the larger inverter would stay at idle and then if too large a load can, the small one would shut down and the larger inverter would pull the bigger load. I guess there would be difficulties with it trying to start back up...

Dapdan

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

Photo,

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If you look closely at some of my pics you will see a a hardwire prosine 12v 1800w prosine at the very both shelf of my setup installed upside down. That inverter runs a 12000btu ac split unit for the past 2-3yrs flawlessly. In it is current location the fan does not run when it is idling only when I turn on the ac. I absolutely love that inverter if only I could get one at 24v split phase it would be perfect. It is a very good inverter. The xantrex prowatt sw series a excellent inverter as well as you can see I have one installed right beside the prosine. I have had the prowatt sw since it was introduced about 3yrs ago and never had a problem or issue of anykind with the ones have, sold or installed...wonderful inverter. I am yet to full vet the conext. This thread is the begining of my veting of the conext for my applications.

Cheers...
Damani

Cariboocoot

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

Photowhit wrote: »

Always wondered if a small efficient Sine wave inverter, 300 watt morning star?, could be run through a larger inverter so the larger inverter would stay at idle and then if too large a load can, the small one would shut down and the larger inverter would pull the bigger load. I guess there would be difficulties with it trying to start back up...

"Progressive stacking" would be a good idea, but difficult to implement and for the most part of low demand. So were left with stand-by/full power option and output doubling with every inverter stack (think Outback's FX series).

If you were to take MS's 300 Watt unit and be able to stack, say, four so that three would idle and only come on when needed that would be cool. But it would also cost as much as one big inverter so the reaction typically is "why bother?" With all four running it would consume 24 Watts, which would actually be more than one inverter of the total 1200 Watt size. Economies of scale and all that.

NorthGuy

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

Cariboocoot wrote: »

"Progressive stacking" would be a good idea, but difficult to implement and for the most part of low demand.

Yes. My XW6048 consumes 28W idle and most of the time smaller 500W inverter with idle draw of 10W. That sums up to 400Wh of savings every day, or 150kWh/year. Summer kWhs don't matter much, so it really, may be, 60kWh during the winter that I would save. This would be saving of generator power, which costs me about $0.75/kWh, so overall this would amount to $45/year, or $450 over the life of the inverter. I don't think the stacking solution would cost substantially less than $450, most likely much more.

Vic

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

Damani,

Have read every post in this Thread, and do not recall this having been covered

So if you turn off the main DC breaker to this Context inverter in the evening, and let it rest over night, so all parts of it reach ambient temps. When you turn it on in the cool morning, do the fans come on when the inverter breaker is switched ON ?? If the fans come on instantly, seems that there may well be a defect in your unit (with ambient temps in the 70s). If it takes some time sitting at idle, or with the ceiling fan load, then, the internal fans may well be doing what was intended by the engineers.

However, having fans run all or almost all of the time in just warm environments (not hot), it would seem to WASTE POWER, and drive many owners of these inverters more NUTs than they already were, IMHO.

Vic

Dapdan

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

Vic,

You are thinking along the lines I am. I have done that but have not measured the time it takes to turn on. When the inverter has been off and cooled to ambient and it is then turned on the fans do not come on instantly. Within 30mins of idle or small loads it turns on. I will run this particular test and post more accurate information. I am glad your realise that with the fans running all the time in a quiet place(like where I live) can send you bonkers. That is why I made that statement that if this is how it performs in tropical climates I would not recommend or install in or within ear shot of a living space unless the client is ok with fans running all the time. Other than that it is a nice box.

I will run that particular test early tommorrow morning and post the results.

Cheers...
Damani

NorthGuy

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

Dapdan wrote: »

I am glad your realise that with the fans running all the time in a quiet place(like where I live) can send you bonkers.

How about the inverter noise? It is much louder than the fans. I wouldn't install an inverter anywhere close to where I can hear it because of the inverter noise.

Cariboocoot

Re: The new Conext SW4024 review

NorthGuy wrote: »

How about the inverter noise? It is much louder than the fans. I wouldn't install an inverter anywhere close to where I can hear it because of the inverter noise.

Hmm. Mine doesn't make any noticeable sound when the fan is not running. It could be that the refrigerator drowns it out.