New Solar Kit Suggestions?
kevelev
Registered Users Posts: 1
Hi everyone,
I'm new to this forum & this site. I was referred here by a fellow customer. I was hoping someone may suggest for me a good place to start for a solar newbie like myself. I'd like to power an average sized apartment eventually.
I guess it would be nice to start with something small just to be able to power key equipment/appliances (full size fridge-freezer, computer, TV, 1 or 2 lamps & a fan or heater), but be able to expand it over time, so I may be able to get completely off-grid. I'd be willing to spend close to the $1,000 range to get me started. Either way, I'm totally open for suggestions on any level. Thanks everybody. Much appreciated.
Kevin
P.S. I'd also like to know about lifespan of certain equipment available here, if possible, also. (Do panels typically need replacing over time? How long will solar batteries hold a charge when NOT in use?) Thanks!
I'm new to this forum & this site. I was referred here by a fellow customer. I was hoping someone may suggest for me a good place to start for a solar newbie like myself. I'd like to power an average sized apartment eventually.
I guess it would be nice to start with something small just to be able to power key equipment/appliances (full size fridge-freezer, computer, TV, 1 or 2 lamps & a fan or heater), but be able to expand it over time, so I may be able to get completely off-grid. I'd be willing to spend close to the $1,000 range to get me started. Either way, I'm totally open for suggestions on any level. Thanks everybody. Much appreciated.
Kevin
P.S. I'd also like to know about lifespan of certain equipment available here, if possible, also. (Do panels typically need replacing over time? How long will solar batteries hold a charge when NOT in use?) Thanks!
Comments
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Re: New Solar Kit Suggestions?
Welcome to the forum Kevin!
You have asked a lot here... I will try to help with a 50,000 foot view. Please feel free to ask detailed questions at any time.I was hoping someone may suggest for me a good place to start for a solar newbie like myself. I'd like to power an average sized apartment eventually.
We all started there... A desire and starting from ground zero.
Designing a cost effective system that meets your needs--We need to help you understand those needs. Assuming this is for normal 120 (and 240) VAC loads, we start with Watts of power. I.e., we have seen the 100 Watt light bulb. Run that for 2 hours, and you use 100w*2hours=200Watt*Hours.
A really nice and practical tool for understanding/measuring your energy usage is a Kill-a-Watt type meter (for 120 VAC 15 amp plug-in appliances). If will tell you your power (average/peak) (a rate, like miles per gallon). And your energy usage (amount, like gallons of fuel used on trip).
So--You create a list/spreadsheet of your loads, add them up (average wattage, peak wattage, average watt*hours per day) to size the equipment.
And, very quickly, you will see that our power usage is quite high, and the output for an "average" solar power system is quite low (and the equipment is expensive).
So, we come back to energy usage and recommend conservation. It is almost always cheaper to conserve power than to generate it (insulation, double pane windows, CFL/LED lighting, laptop vs desktop computer, energy star appliances, etc.).
It is not unusual for a home that has never looked at energy efficiency to reduce electrical power usage by upwards of 1/2 or even more.
Just to give you some ideas about energy usage--Assuming natural gas/propane/etc. for cooking, hot water, clothes drier--Some very rough energy usage levels for a North American home:- 1,000 Watt*Hours (1 kWH per day or 30 kWH per month) for a small cabin (lights, laptop, cell charger, water pump, etc.).
- 3.3 kWH per day (100 kWH per month) add an Energy Star Refrigerator and a washing machine
- 10 kWH per day (300 kWH per month) add central heat, multiple computers/TV/kids/microwave/toaster oven, etc.
- 30 kWH per day (1,000 kWH per month) typical North American home (no special energy conservation)
- 30-100 kWH per day (1,000-3,000 kWH per month) add air conditioning, all electric home etc.
Most people in the US pay around $0.10 to $0.30 per kWH for electricity... An Off Grid system will cost (very rough) $1-$2+ per kWH (some people less, some people more--But something on the order of 10x the cost of utility power). So, if you already have grid power, you can see that going "off grid" can save a lot of money if there serious energy conservation involved.
A small system would be on the order of 1 kWH per day (roughly 500 watts of solar panels, a 300 watt AC inverter, and ~400 AH of 12 volt deep cycle batteries (something like ~4x 6 volt 200 AH "golf cart" sized batteries).
So, for a $1,000 (really rough number), you will get around a 1 kWH per day system... You would need ~2-3.3 kWH system just to power a refrigerator (~1.5 kWH per day) plus lights plus laptop (~0.5-1.0 kWH per day for computer + networking + printer).I guess it would be nice to start with something small just to be able to power key equipment/appliances (full size fridge-freezer, computer, TV, 1 or 2 lamps & a fan or heater), but be able to expand it over time, so I may be able to get completely off-grid. I'd be willing to spend close to the $1,000 range to get me started. Either way, I'm totally open for suggestions on any level. Thanks everybody. Much appreciated.
In general, it is not really practical to "start small" and expand an off grid power system over time--There are just too many issues involved. When you more than double the size of a system, you probably have to "scrap" (or sell on Ebay) most of your original system, and start over again with the next higher "class" of equipment (larger/higher voltage inverters, larger/higher rated charge controllers, new/larger/higher voltage battery bank, new/larger solar array and mounting/wiring, etc.).
And, for somebody in an apparment where you are limited in your energy conservation (you probably cannot insulate the ceilings, change windows, install a new central heat pump / AC system). And you cannot mount more than a few hundred watts of solar panels on your balcony (to run a "typical" apartment off grid, you would need ~3,500 watt to >5,000 watt of solar panels (several hundred's of square feet of solar panels).
The scale of the problem just usually does not map back to an apartment system. And, if off grid, you would need a backup source of power (a 2-5kW genset, fuel storage, etc.) for winter when you have a week of no sun (batteries will only store around 2 day worth of energy for a "balanced" off grid system).
More than happy to go into the details of any of the above areas of interest (lots of suggestions, math for sizing of equipment, etc.). But this will not be a small system or a small project.
To power my (reasonably efficient) San Francisco suburben home (central heat, no A/C, natural gas, adding insulation for ceiling, exterior walls, floor, double pane windows, operating skylights, etc.). And a 3.5 kW Grid Tied at ~$15,000 for today's pricing (no battery/off grid power) system gives me lots of power--around 300-400 kWH per month (I have excess power at the end of year billing cycle). And off grid system would need a bigger array, plus batteries, charge controllers, AC inverter, etc... would cost 2-4x as much.P.S. I'd also like to know about lifespan of certain equipment available here, if possible, also. (Do panels typically need replacing over time? How long will solar batteries hold a charge when NOT in use?) Thanks!
Very rough numbers:- Batteries last 5-8 years, but can die in 3-5 years ("inexpensive" batteries "run hard") or even days/months if mistreated
- Charge Controllers, AC Inverters, other electronics--Plan on replacement every 10+ years (hard to repair 10+ year old electronics)
- Solar arrays--Good quality Glass panels with crystalline solar cells should easily last 20+ years (perhaps 30-45 years).
For a good read--Take a look at this Thread. Lots of information, links to other sites, and some projects:
http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?5556-Working-Thread-for-Solar-Beginner-Post-FAQ
Please feel free to ask questions--The above are very rough rules of thumbs and my assumptions about your life--I may very well be mostly wrong on many of my guesses. Energy usage is highly personal and we try to give practical answers that help people meet their needs.
-BillNear San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset -
Re: New Solar Kit Suggestions?
I'm the person who referred Kevin here and I just want to explain a little more. Back in 2008 I wrote a post about the "solar backup generator" scam advertised on the radio:
The Alex Jones "Solar Backup Generator" ripoff!
It's been read over 100,000 times and I still get people asking me for recommendations because they're STILL advertising the Solar Backup Generator at numerous websites and radio shows.
In 2007 I moved into my new and STILL unfinished place off the grid with one Air 404 wind gen, one 64 watt solar panel and 4 cheapo deep cycle batteries. I've since bought several panels from Solar Electric and wish I had the cash to buy a few more! I spent $1,200 on batteries and still need batteries more than panels. I also can't afford a pure sine wave inverter, but so far haven't had any problems other than frying several washers (just don't have enough power and now use a little Toshiba washer made for Asian markets that works great.)
Before I moved my nephew came to help me finish the interior, I thought as least we ought to have some cold beer and I bought a big side by side freezer fridge! I thought I could run it off a 1000 watt generator. It wouldn't even start up. I'm now using the fridge part as storage for bulk herbs, tea, spices and stuff that doesn't have to be refrigerated and I'm using the freezer part as fridge. I usually run it about 3 times a day for about half an hour, long enough to get it cold but not freeze everything. It's on a timer with 3 on/off settings. That works pretty well and of course I run it only during the day.
I have a chest freezer that works quite well and doesn't use too much power.
I have a bit of a strange system because I have two battery banks and two inverters, but it works well for what it is and I always have a backup system if there is a problem (not in a long time, other than low batteries.)
I also haul water and just a couple weeks ago my house pump died. I've used it A LOT since 2007 as I'm growing food and watering a ton of trees and I now plumbed my old camper 12 volt pump into the system and that works better than expected and has numerous advantages, such as hearing when there's a leak somewhere or a faucet not quite closed because the pump comes on occasionally. It DID drain the batteries when I ran it in the evening to water for an hour, but I'm in the middle of converting all watering to a gravity based drip system.
I'm guessing that I have about $4k in my system and it works well for me because I use only notebook computers and I do NOT watch TV. I splurged on a 24 inch monitor that uses about 25 watts if I want to do serious web work or watch "tv".
I do miss the occasional real loud stereo, the boombox has to do.
And of course all the lights are LEDs or the fluorescent bulbs (which I'm replacing with LEDs as they burn out.)
I got used to making an effort to vacuum during the day when the batteries are full and really any time they're full I try to think of power sucking things to do, laundry, maybe even just run the fridge for a while.
Kevin wrote:I guess it would be nice to start with something small just to be able to power key equipment/appliances (full size fridge-freezer, computer, TV, 1 or 2 lamps & a fan or heater)
It takes a HUGE system to run a fridge and an electric heater is completely out of the question. I'm determined to build a rocket stove before winter because my wood stove doesn't cut it either, although it is a huge step up from Mr. Heater on the propane bottle.
I've actually seen these advertisements saying how you can run a fridge or TV off one of those "solar backup generators" and while you might get it started, how long will that battery last? 5 minutes?
I think the Kill-A-Watt is one of the best gadgets you can get to figure out how much power you will need. I think my fridge would use about 2.5 kw/day in summer, if I remember that right. We must have been using the generator a lot to keep it running for a day or two.
I'm also wondering where Kevin can put solar panels since he mentions an apartment.
So I'm hoping that the experts here can refer Kevin to some pages on how to calculate your power needs and a few pointers and then I can post a link from my post to here. I know many people buy the Harbor Freight starter kits, but I just don't like their power tools / electronics and would think that somebody wanting to get started would be better off buying separate components and being able to upgrade. That's what I did, started with one panel on my camper and took it from there. -
Re: New Solar Kit Suggestions?
Just saw Bill's post and a quick comment on starting small and expanding.
I suppose it depends on what you're doing, but the reason I have two systems is because I didn't want to mix the new batteries with the old ones and my charge controller was at max anyway. It may be a bit funky, but I haven't had to sell any old equipment as I've been adding panels and batteries and I keep talking about if I only had a couple extra batteries, I could set up a little system for my hoophouse. Still have my old 4 amp controller from the camper and could use an old 64 watt panel from 82 for charging.
Of course you really can't compare my situation on an acre in the desert with a nice house in San Francisco. I sure miss that fog and the cool summers! -
Re: New Solar Kit Suggestions?
Nice intro Christine and good on you for keeping it small and simple. Too much emphasis on bigger (and more) is better in our society - a trap I fall into more than I care to admit. I do miss the days of just me, my dog and my Westfalia.... -
Re: New Solar Kit Suggestions?
Christine,
I read your post and comments to people asking questions about solar power--And I have no disagreements with what you said.
There are places out there that have spread sheets and on-line forms where you can enter the information and get some answers.
https://www.google.com/search?q=off+grid+solar+calculator
And our host has some information and a spreadsheet:
http://www.solar-electric.com/elloevwo.html
There is really no substitute to measuring your loads and understanding the numbers behind the measurements...- Kill-a-Watt Measure plug-in AC loads (Euro versions available too)
- The Energy Detective Measure whole house loads
- Doc Wattsun Measure DC loads (~20 watts maximum, 60 volts maximum)
- AC/DC Current Clamp Meter (measure larger AC/DC load current and estimate power)
The above links are just examples--There are many different websites and tools for doing these measurements.
-BillNear San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset -
Re: New Solar Kit Suggestions?
Kevin,
Hard to do what you want for $1000. Bill gives you the numbers.
Here's one attempt:
2 DM solar 158 watt panels $268
Xantrex prowatt 2000 TSW inverter $364
2 Costco 6 volt 220 AH "golf cart" batteries $200
Steca 2020 pwm charge controller $130
Cables, etc will probably be another $100 or so .
This is a bit smaller than Bill suggests and conservation would be key (no heater!!) - but the 2000 watt inverter will handle the startup surge of your fridge and give you some room for expansion. Future addition of panels and batteries would require another charge controller.
At about 3 kWh of storage - at best you would only have about 1.5 kWh a day of usable power (no more than 50% depth of discharge of batteries and assuming really good sun exposure!) - so depending on your loads it might not do what you want to start. Conservation!!
Get your hands on a kill-a-watt meter and figure out exactly what your loads are before buying anything. -
Re: New Solar Kit Suggestions?I'm new to this forum & this site.!I was hoping someone may suggest for me a good place to start for a solar newbie like myself.!I'd like to power an average sized apartment eventually.I guess it would be nice to start with something small just to be able to power key equipment/appliances (full size fridge-freezer, computer, TV, 1 or 2 lamps & a fan!
Typically you would be much better off making a small purchase of a Kill-A-Watt meter and look at what how much energy your items are using, and picking ones you could replace to save money on your electric bill.or heater),but be able to expand it over time, so I may be able to get completely off-grid.!I'd be willing to spend close to the $1,000 range to get me started.!I'd also like to know about lifespan of certain equipment available here,!(Do panels typically need replacing over time? !How long will solar batteries hold a charge when NOT in use?)
http://www.solar-electric.com/solar-information-faq-learning-section.html
Grid tied systems without batteries, can save you money in some areas, and if that is your goal look into a grid tied system.Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites, Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
- Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects. -
Re: New Solar Kit Suggestions?P.S. I'd also like to know about lifespan of certain equipment available here, if possible, also. (Do panels typically need replacing over time? How long will solar batteries hold a charge when NOT in use?) Thanks!
Unless you have very specialized batteries you should not expect them to hold a charge for long periods of time, and more important you should not expect them to survive well if left partially charged for a long time (somewhere between days and months).SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
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